Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Aenon]

How were those picking a fight with Christ supposed to respond when he replied with a parable?

Okay.

 

[Spockrates]

Okay.

OK, what?

 

[Spockrates]

I mean, do you mean, "OK, now I know what you mean," or do you mean, "OK, I still don't get it"?

 

[Spockrates]

Aenon: If you are curious, I was having fun with words. You implied Taylor's post was ignorant. I responded it was a creative use of language, like a text message. Your reply was that one of my posts was about as creative as a stick figure. My response was in the language of a text message, which as I mentioned is a creative way to communicate. But I suppose you disagree after considering what I wrote, or are you ignorant as to the meaning of the texts?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I guess that depends on what we believe the word repentance means. If we say it means changing our minds about who Jesus is and what he has done, then it seems a mixture of repentance and faith is necessary to receive salvation. If we say it means to change our minds about sinful behavior, then it might be possible to have faith in who Jesus is and what he has done without repenting.

Then again, I'm not so sure that would be a faith that is enough for one to receive salvation. For I think one must change her mind about her need to be forgiven before she may be forgiven, and that would entail changing her mind about the sinfulness of her behavior, which is what repentance is in the second sense of the word! So no matter what way we define it, I don't see how repentance is not required to be saved. Do you?

When I consider that the apostle Paul repented about the way he had perceived Jesus
he did not use faith(although the faith of others may have played a part) because he had sudden undeniable revelation.
So without this totally in your face revelation of the supremacy of Jesus one receives revelation that leads to confrontation by the grace of God through faith.So it is the revelation that causes the confrontation and provides the option of repentance.

In this phase repentance and belief work in a sort of synergy.
The first step in the beginning of a journey is the journey.
A step in a different direction so to speak.
This is excepting that foundation which is already laid.
Any step after that builds on that secure foundation.
Thats why I see "saved" like in a video game because if my works are burnt up by the fire I have that foundation.
I don't have to die for the day to declare my works because if I am walking in the day I get daily backfeed.

 

[Spockrates]

When I consider that the apostle Paul repented about the way he had perceived Jesus
he did not use faith(although the faith of others may have played a part) because he had sudden undeniable revelation.
So without this totally in your face revelation of the supremacy of Jesus one receives revelation that leads to confrontation by the grace of God through faith.So it is the revelation that causes the confrontation and provides the option of repentance.

In this phase repentance and belief work in a sort of synergy.
The first step in the beginning of a journey is the journey.
A step in a different direction so to speak.
This is excepting that foundation which is already laid.
Any step after that builds on that secure foundation.
Thats why I see "saved" like in a video game because if my works are burnt up by the fire I have that foundation.
I don't have to die for the day to declare my works because if I am walking in the day I get daily backfeed.

When I think of a video game, I think of dying a few hundred times before the game ends, each time being resurrected a few moments before death to face the challenge again. But the art of the game doesn't immitate life in this way, so you must have something different in mind. Please explain why being saved reminds you of such a game.

 

[B-A-C]

When I think of a video game, I think of dying a few hundred times before the game ends, each time being resurrected a few moments before death to face the challenge again. But the art of the game doesn't immitate life in this way, so you must have something different in mind. Please explain why being saved reminds you of such a game.

There are some who don't really believe in Hell (Hades) or the Lake of fire.
Saved certainly has many different interpretations here on TJ. A few I have heard.
We are saved from being annihilated after the judgment.
We are saved to live eternally on the earth.
We are saved from the Lake of fire.
We are saved to live eternally in the New Jerusalem.
We are saved to live for a while on the Earth, and then possibly the New Jerusalem after the millennial reign.

Some believe Christians do not have an eternal soul.
So when you die, you just die, but aren't judged.
Some believe ONLY Christians have an eternal soul. Christians live on forever, but unbelievers are annihilated and there is no punishment
(temporary or permanent) for them.
Most believe we all have an eternal soul, Christians live forever, unbelievers live forever also, but in torment in the lake of fire.
(the Bible says this is the second death, but I think the word "death" is misleading here).

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

When I think of a video game, I think of dying a few hundred times before the game ends, each time being resurrected a few moments before death to face the challenge again. But the art of the game doesn't immitate life in this way, so you must have something different in mind. Please explain why being saved reminds you of such a game.

I would love to explain what I see because there is no private interpretation of scripture so if I can't show someone then I may be in error.
Doesn't Paul say he dies daily?
How many days do we have until the game ends?

It's about seeing the paths of God.
If you check out the double slit experiment then I can more easily convey what I see.
If a picture can paint a thousand words then an experiment can also.

 

[Spockrates]

There are some who don't really believe in Hell (Hades) or the Lake of fire.
Saved certainly has many different interpretations here on TJ. A few I have heard.
We are saved from being annihilated after the judgment.
We are saved to live eternally on the earth.
We are saved from the Lake of fire.
We are saved to live eternally in the New Jerusalem.
We are saved to live for a while on the Earth, and then possibly the New Jerusalem after the millennial reign.

Some believe Christians do not have an eternal soul.
So when you die, you just die, but aren't judged.
Some believe ONLY Christians have an eternal soul. Christians live on forever, but unbelievers are annihilated and there is no punishment
(temporary or permanent) for them.
Most believe we all have an eternal soul, Christians live forever, unbelievers live forever also, but in torment in the lake of fire.
(the Bible says this is the second death, but I think the word "death" is misleading here).

Yes, I agree. I'd add that to have a meaningful discussion on what it takes to be saved, I guess it is not always required to have an agreement on exactly what it means to be saved. As long as the two or more having said discussion agree on the least common denominator--that being saved is to have some desirable existence after death--a discussion on the causes of salvation may progress.

In the case of those who believe there is no such existence after death, I'd say there is no disagreement over the meaning of the word saved. Instead, their disagreement would be in the idea that one is saved at all. That is, such people would disagree that the scriptures speaking of being saved are true. For these people, there would be no need to have a discussion about the correct interpretation of the text at all. Instead the discussion might need to focus on the reliability of scripture.

But in the case of people like Aenon and others who appear to make no distinction between salvation and sanctification--seeing them as one and the same process--I suppose a discussion over the meaning of being saved would be required.

As Paul wrote: "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some." We have to meet people where they are and discuss what is important to them if we hope to make a difference and make ourselves useful to them and God. Don't you think?

 

[Aenon]

Perhaps I can explain my understanding of salvation by likening it to a file cabinet. Salvation is the cabinet itself, and within the drawers, there are files named "baptism, eucharist, confession, sanctification, resurrection, glorification" etc. Meaning, all things are done to guide us to salvation to obtain the prize.

 

[DHC]

Perhaps I can explain my understanding of salvation by likening it to a file cabinet. Salvation is the cabinet itself, and within the drawers, there are files named "baptism, eucharist, confession, sanctification, resurrection, glorification" etc. Meaning, all things are done to guide us to salvation to obtain the prize.

Hello Aenon.

Read your post and I have a few questions for you.

Here is what you wrote in your post.

Perhaps I can explain my understanding of salvation by likening it to a file cabinet. Salvation is the cabinet itself,
and within the drawers, there are files named "baptism, eucharist, confession, sanctification, resurrection, glorification" etc.
Meaning, all things are done to guide us to salvation to obtain the prize.

All these things are done to guide us to salvation according to your understanding. Does this then imply
that a person who believes in Jesus Christ is not saved, never saved at any given moment during their life?
The person is only on the path to salvation but never actually saved?

 

[Spockrates]

Hello Aenon.

Read your post and I have a few questions for you.

Here is what you wrote in your post.

All these things are done to guide us to salvation according to your understanding. Does this then imply
that a person who believes in Jesus Christ is not saved, never saved at any given moment during their life?
The person is only on the path to salvation but never actually saved?

Good question. Interested in hearing the answer.

 

[Aenon]

Hello Aenon.

Read your post and I have a few questions for you.

Here is what you wrote in your post.

All these things are done to guide us to salvation according to your understanding. Does this then imply
that a person who believes in Jesus Christ is not saved, never saved at any given moment during their life?
The person is only on the path to salvation but never actually saved?

Right. In the same way a marathon runner doesn't say they've won before they get the trophy. I do not see salvation with a western framework, so eternal security/losing salvation are notions that wont function with my framework.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Good question. Interested in hearing the answer.

But in the case of people like Aenon and others who appear to make no distinction between salvation and sanctification--seeing them as one and the same process--I suppose a discussion over the meaning of being saved would be required.

That leads us back to my question of saved from or to what?
Are we pack to assuming eternal punishment?
That is a concept I can't wrap my head around yet.

Salvation is the cabinet itself,

If God sees the end from the beginning then what would acquiring the cabinet look like from the end.
It creates new direction(repentance) and momentum(belief in motion) and an already filled cabinet.
Game saved out of time.Eph.2:6.
I'm living out how it happened.

 

[Spockrates]

Right. In the same way a marathon runner doesn't say they've won before they get the trophy. I do not see salvation with a western framework, so eternal security/losing salvation are notions that wont function with my framework.

Does this sound correct? Salvation is not money in one's pocket today. It's an investment in the stock market to be cashed in tomorrow.

 

[Spockrates]

That leads us back to my question of saved from or to what?
Are we pack to assuming eternal punishment?
That is a concept I can't wrap my head around yet.

For the sake of liberating us to consider salvation's causes, would it help to say we are being saved for something rather than being saved from something? I'm willing to agree salvation is being saved for some desirable existence after death if it will help us move on to considering faith, repentance, baptism, good deeds and the like.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

For the sake of liberating us to consider salvation's causes, would it help to say we are being saved for something rather than being saved from something? I'm willing to agree salvation is being saved for some desirable existence after death if it will help us move on to considering faith, repentance, baptism, good deeds and the like.

That would be a good start,but I think salvation is about life not death.
How about we at least attempt to show the possibility of a victorious life in the "now".

I would say:
Salvation is being saved for some desirable existence now and the loss of fear of what happens after death if it will help us move on to considering faith, repentance, baptism, good deeds and the like".

 

[Spockrates]

That would be a good start,but I think salvation is about life not death.
How about we at least attempt to show the possibility of a victorious life in the "now".

I would say:
Salvation is being saved for some desirable existence now and the loss of fear of what happens after death if it will help us move on to considering faith, repentance, baptism, good deeds and the like".

Yes, sounds good to me.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Right. In the same way a marathon runner doesn't say they've won before they get the trophy. I do not see salvation with a western framework, so eternal security/losing salvation are notions that wont function with my framework.

That doesn't fit that well with the file cabinet example.
here you are collecting files in hopes to win a file cabinet.
Maybe qualifying is is the file cabinet and running the race fills the files.
Either way it is an eternal thing and time is not relative as I start from the finish line and catch up to myself.
We are seated in heavenly places now.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Right. In the same way a marathon runner doesn't say they've won before they get the trophy..

I would agree with this in part,

However, it's not a perfect analogy.

Take, for instance, the following scripture.

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."
1 John 5:13