amadeus2
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Must one grow in "theology"? What is one to do if one doesn't really know what theology is, but is "in Jesus"? Perhaps just give God the glory!
Are You Saved By Grace or Faith Alone
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Dovegiven
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Insufficient! Not "just"!
2 Peter 3:15-18 (KJV) 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Study hard. Learn the Bible. Do what is revealed to you. Don't fall due to ignorance from neglect of your calling!
amadeus2
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I 've come across a couple of atheists who worked on your first two sentences and in spite of their knowledge remain atheists. The revelation is another thing, isn't it?
I continue to be brought back to this verse:
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
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Let's put that in context. Matthew 6:31-34 (KJV)
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek
for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
The subject is basic necessities of life, not to worry about what we'll eat, drink, wear. Upon seeking instead the kingdom of God and his righteousness, those necessities will be supplied.
Jesus didn't say "all things" there, but those things. If he meant to include studying scriptures, getting knowledge, then Paul and Peter both would be false teachers, contradicting Jesus. But when taken in context, no apostle is in error against Jesus.
Why ignore the Word?
2 Timothy 2:11-16 (KJV)
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Dovegiven
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Atheists do appear highly interested in knowledge (knowing/knowledge/science) in general, but are blind as the scriptures declare of anyone who is lacking faith to begin with, and virtue (manliness for males/excellence of bearing for all), temperance (self control), patience (endurance/waiting), godliness (gospel piety/holiness), brotherly kindness, and of course love. Lacking in those areas leads to a great fall. Of great dismay is to watch Christians slipping in those things when debating the milk of the word. It's a sad day to have to part a man's mustache to insert baby bottle. It takes growing strong in all those to enable us to keep our spiritual armor on and know how to conduct ourselves to be pleasing to the Lord. I leave atheists to themselves, as hanging out with them is like having lunch with the Devil. They are the wicked, set to destroy a believer's faith by eroding confidence in the word of God, and causing deafness to the voice of the Lord.
amadeus2
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How about eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus? How about putting on the whole armour of God?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek
Our heavenly Father knows exactly all that we need. This includes the natural things necessary to be a good steward, but more importantly the spiritual things...
Yes, all these things! Give God the glory!
"Pray without ceasing." I Thess 5:17
"REJOICE in the Lord always. Again I will say, REJOICE!" Phil 4:4
Yes, the necessities of Life, Jesus being the Life, rather than what man routinely calls life.
And the purpose of "study" is to "shew thyself approved unto God". It is not to gain knowledge although through it knowledge may be gained. Studying is to be done as a matter of obedience not to gain knowledge of the things of God. The Holy Ghost will do that for us.
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
In other words learn to always recognize God's voice and follow it without mixing in what we are hearing from other voices:
"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:4
Are we sheep or are we goats?
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left." Matt 25:32-33
Greetings,
brothers, do all things in love.
You all are saying things which are true, yet all erring at times to defend yourselves. (before you go at me, yes, I too can and do the same and it is God's Grace which gently and tenderly restores me when I do - I am no better than any other)
Yes, the Apocrypha is a Protestant definition and conclusion. However there are plenty of other books and writings also that some declare to be scripture. The Book of Enoch and Thomas, are two quick examples. But knowing these things does not mean we have the monopoly on faith or interpretation or even truth itself. (Himself) You see.. or do you... knowing something might make you feel as if you know something but owning some tools does not make you a mechanic, does it?
However....
In the beginning was ?
Perhaps most of you (if not all) are trying to say something but not having the tongues to express it, fall short and yet defend your position perhaps through fear that the fortress you have mistakenly placed your faith in, that of your limited making, perhaps, might give way if you even so much as look at something different than what your fortress is made of.
I wanted to place a like on all your posts for certain parts of your posts but could not due to the posts also containing a lack (work that one out!) of truth also, or perhaps more precisely, a position of defending oneself to the point of adding extra bits to cover the hole in the whole.
You may now all agree and be one and turn on me, and leave arguing over the mistakes of your interpretations.
We do not do well if we insist on ourselves and become and/or remain divided by pride and arrogancy.
In the beginning was the....
Please ask for wisdom as we are advised and instructed to in James. In fact, please read all of James, it takes only a few minutes, honestly, and let the whole of his letter soak in, not just a few bits. I shall make mention though of two which I ask that you keep in mind as you read and for all times, although there are many verses in that letter which are to be taken and eaten. I recalled the other night, even the dogs eat the crumbs, which makes even crumbs worth much, if you know the story.
James 1:5-8
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
James 3:17-18
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Let all things be done in love to the edifying of the whole body.
finally,
Colossians 2:2-4
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
Bless you ....><>
brothers, do all things in love.
You all are saying things which are true, yet all erring at times to defend yourselves. (before you go at me, yes, I too can and do the same and it is God's Grace which gently and tenderly restores me when I do - I am no better than any other)
Yes, the Apocrypha is a Protestant definition and conclusion. However there are plenty of other books and writings also that some declare to be scripture. The Book of Enoch and Thomas, are two quick examples. But knowing these things does not mean we have the monopoly on faith or interpretation or even truth itself. (Himself) You see.. or do you... knowing something might make you feel as if you know something but owning some tools does not make you a mechanic, does it?
However....
In the beginning was ?
Perhaps most of you (if not all) are trying to say something but not having the tongues to express it, fall short and yet defend your position perhaps through fear that the fortress you have mistakenly placed your faith in, that of your limited making, perhaps, might give way if you even so much as look at something different than what your fortress is made of.
I wanted to place a like on all your posts for certain parts of your posts but could not due to the posts also containing a lack (work that one out!) of truth also, or perhaps more precisely, a position of defending oneself to the point of adding extra bits to cover the hole in the whole.
You may now all agree and be one and turn on me, and leave arguing over the mistakes of your interpretations.
We do not do well if we insist on ourselves and become and/or remain divided by pride and arrogancy.
In the beginning was the....
Please ask for wisdom as we are advised and instructed to in James. In fact, please read all of James, it takes only a few minutes, honestly, and let the whole of his letter soak in, not just a few bits. I shall make mention though of two which I ask that you keep in mind as you read and for all times, although there are many verses in that letter which are to be taken and eaten. I recalled the other night, even the dogs eat the crumbs, which makes even crumbs worth much, if you know the story.
James 1:5-8
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
James 3:17-18
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Let all things be done in love to the edifying of the whole body.
finally,
Colossians 2:2-4
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
Bless you ....><>
Spockrates
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Dovegiven
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With all due respect, the scriptures don't inhibit challenging interpretations of scriptures, nor "earnestly contending for the faith", but instead it is encouraged to do that among brethren, as in the resolved case of Paul confronting Peter over discriminating against Gentile brethren to court favor of Jewish friends, and in the face of false teachers.
Jude 1:3 (KJV) 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
It's obviously a matter of love for the brethren, I agree, but love for God and his word is above that but a little bit, our love for one another being a confirmation of our love for God. Lack of love for God, his word, and wife, and children, and brethren, and neighbor becomes a relative association, a matter of choosing which to serve first and most.
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amadeus2 said
"And the purpose of "study" is to "shew thyself approved unto God". It is not to gain knowledge although through it knowledge may be gained. Studying is to be done as a matter of obedience not to gain knowledge of the things of God. The Holy Ghost will do that for us."
Why then should any student study any assignment from any instructor? Would a student agree to study only to be able to truthfully say he has studied without a benefit? I doubt that would last long. Rather, God instructed the Jews long ago to study the scriptures, to know them inside and out. Jesus and the apostles recommend the same, but not as a "hobby". Studying the word of God is a matter of discipline fairly lost in the Western mind. Without study of the word of God we risk lack of ability to rightly divide truth from error.
amaseus2 said "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26""
Yes, when we study, or hear preached, the word of God, the Holy Spirit within us becomes our tutor, showing us the elements wee should derive from study and hearing of his word. I believe it is folly to assume all we believe about the gospel of Christ is valid only based upon what we think was given from the Holy Spirit with and without study of his word.
We study to add knowledge to our faith.
2 Peter 1:5-6 (KJV) 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
I find much resistance to Peter's gospel on all web sites. I await your response to that passage, but don't expect a reply, as that poses a terrible challenge to "faith alone". The problem I see is what folks define "faith alone" to be.
B-A-C
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A very weird way to put that. I suspect more knowledge of God is gained through the scriptures than any other way.
Not that the Holy Spirit can't teach and inspire us, He certainly does, but I believe He uses the Bible as often as not to teach us.
The Holy Spirit will never contradict scripture.
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Can grace/faith only bear up under this?
1 Timothy 4:6-16 (KJV)
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.
12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
I plead with the brethren not to despise knowledge, doctrine, even the words of faith. Learn all you can of it, and do it.
DHC
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Hello Dovegiven.
You quoted from Paul's letter to Timothy.
The basis of your salvation is written within your quotation.
10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
Then at the end of this chapter is written.
16 persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
These 'things' that Paul speaks of never enable the salvation event itself, 'these things' only ensure you do not drift from the trust
in the Lord for salvation.
amadeus2
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Understand what I am saying. I sincerely believe in study because God told us to study. I study the scripture daily but I also pray daily, hopefully always in the Holy Spirit. Study will not give us God's truth unless the Holy Ghost is in the student. The most important thing is Love, which is God. To forget the Holy Ghost while leaning on our good student habits is to miss something very important. An unbelieving atheist who studies the Bible in the wrong spirit will not gain salvation. A believer, who studies the Bible to prove his own point (in the wrong spirit) may well lose some of the good that he has already received.
My point is that without the Holy Spirit, our study time in the scripture would be wasted.
Without the Holy Ghost, nothing can be added that is worthwhile in the eyes of God. I am not a follower of faith alone, as you apparently are presuming. Without the Holy Ghost what is our faith? Without Love or Charity what is anything?
"
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2
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I believe God sent many preachers to the Jews and to Gentiles that they might hear it and believe it. That's the route by which people obtain faith to believe. Afterward they receive the Spirit
Romans 10:8-15 (KJV)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Many understood enough to obey, but most refused to obey what they did understand. God allowed some Jews to be blinded to the gospel so as to make a way for Gentiles, but opened the eyes of others (apostles, disciples) without the Spirit being given yet.
amadeus2
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All were born of woman with a glimmer of light, but not many used what they had to move on toward the Light... [the rebirth?]
"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14
"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:14
Many can not understand that scripture since they lack the ability of discernment, "...: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matthew 9:13
B-A-C
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I think that is one of the few places in the Bible Jesus used a bit of ironic humor. I suspect he was saying this "tongue in cheek" to the Pharisee's.
Obviously the Pharisee's "knew" they were righteous. So they didn't need a savior. What the Pharisee's didn't realize was that they were also
sinners. Rather than keep arguing with them, Jesus simply said the righteous don't need me, only the sinners.
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Compare Matthew 9:12-13 (KJV)
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
with what Jesus was quoting in
Hosea 6:5-7 (KJV)
5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
Jesus hit the Pharisees between the eyes with that one, like David to Goliath with one stone.
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
with what Jesus was quoting in
Hosea 6:5-7 (KJV)
5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
Jesus hit the Pharisees between the eyes with that one, like David to Goliath with one stone.
