Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Thiscrosshurts]

Yes, sounds good to me.

The soul is still hanging there waiting to be defined.
I never got your feedback on whether soul and spirit are different things.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
The soul is not mentioned but the spirit is.

Do you feel that you are spirit, a soul or flesh or something else?
Sometimes person is used instead of soul,a captain of a boat has souls on board.

Old testament
Strong's 5315 Nephesh=a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

New testament
Strong's 5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

Is there any scripture that provides evidence that a soul is eternal?

 

[DHC]

Right. In the same way a marathon runner doesn't say they've won before they get the trophy. I do not see salvation with a western framework, so eternal security/losing salvation are notions that wont function with my framework.

Hello Aenon.

I said the following.

All these things are done to guide us to salvation according to your understanding. Does this then imply
that a person who believes in Jesus Christ is not saved, never saved at any given moment during their life?
The person is only on the path to salvation but never actually saved?

You replied that this was correct.

Right. In the same way a marathon runner doesn't say they've won before they get the trophy. I do not see salvation
with a western framework, so eternal security/losing salvation are notions that wont function with my framework.

So all occurrences of the word 'saved' in the scripture never actually mean saved, the word usage
by the apostles actually means 'unsaved'. Simply because no one is saved until all the specified
works have been successfully accomplished. Is this correct so far Aenon?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

(Ephesians 2:8-10)

So I have a lot of questions about the meaning of this passage of scripture. I don't doubt it means we are saved by grace, nor through faith, nor apart from our own good deeds. I'm just wondering if the passage means we are saved through faith alone--through nothing else but faith.

I tend to ask a lot of follow up questions, but don't feel obligated to answer them all. Post and go, or post and stay as long as you like to help me learn the truth.

Hello Spock Rates,

First I want to place some meanings to the words Grace and Faith
Grace....Unmerited or un-earned favor or Gods overwhelming desire to treat us as if sin never happened.
Faith of course is the substance of things hoped for but yet not seen.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
8...For by grace are ye saved through faith; AND that not of yourselves: It is the Gift of God;
9... Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10..For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Lets look at verse 8....For by Grace. What grace? The Mercy and Goodness of God - are ye saved. Born again by the blood of Christ Jesus into the family of God OR made right with God and NOW Given the right to spend eternity with the Father. ...Through Faith....Believing in the name of Jesus- Believing He died on the cross for you- Believing He bore our sins for us and took our place in hell. - and that not of your selves. .. Nothing we did or can do to of our selves or on our own to achieve this. We can do no works to earn this for- it is a gift of God. Gods gift to us besides life if giving up his son for us on the cross. God gave us this gift of Christ Jesus just so we can be cleansed of sin and unrighteousness so He could have the Joy and Pleasure of us His creation, His children in His kingdom for eternity. Now that is Love !!

9...is simply talking about what I already said but adds ....that no man may boast...another words....we can not brag or CLAIM THIS ACHIEVEMENT of our selves or of our doing....We can not go around braging that we got saved and permission to go to heaven on something that we did.

10...is saying we are His creation or masterpiece in which He has made us NEW in Christ so we can do the GOOD things which He has planned for us to do. We all have a calling or Plan for our lives. It's the most wonderful plan at that. It is where or Grace runs High and our Joy and everything else good is at. God has more good things in store for us then most will ever know, BUT we have got to walk in His ways to get to the place where he will release them into our lives.

I also wanted to add this........you have heard it said....Faith with out works is dead...........Many Christians get caught up in the doing of good works and this makes their faith good. Well it is always a good thing to do good things for God BUT............
the works here simply refer to doing what His written word says...Example.....walking in Love and Forgiveness is not an option. It is a command from God to us..With out love and forgiveness....Faith does not have a chance to grow or produce GOOD results as it is created to do. Works here means obeying and doing what the word of God says to do.....

I sure hope this makes sense to you......
Blessings and Love
Jim

 

[DHC]

Hello Spock Rates,

First I want to place some meanings to the words Grace and Faith
Grace....Unmerited or un-earned favor or Gods overwhelming desire to treat us as if sin never happened.
Faith of course is the substance of things hoped for but yet not seen.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
8...For by grace are ye saved through faith; AND that not of yourselves: It is the Gift of God;
9... Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10..For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Lets look at verse 8....For by Grace. What grace? The Mercy and Goodness of God - are ye saved. Born again by the blood of Christ Jesus into the family of God OR made right with God and NOW Given the right to spend eternity with the Father. ...Through Faith....Believing in the name of Jesus- Believing He died on the cross for you- Believing He bore our sins for us and took our place in hell. - and that not of your selves. .. Nothing we did or can do to of our selves or on our own to achieve this. We can do no works to earn this for- it is a gift of God. Gods gift to us besides life if giving up his son for us on the cross. God gave us this gift of Christ Jesus just so we can be cleansed of sin and unrighteousness so He could have the Joy and Pleasure of us His creation, His children in His kingdom for eternity. Now that is Love !!

9...is simply talking about what I already said but adds ....that no man may boast...another words....we can not brag or CLAIM THIS ACHIEVEMENT of our selves or of our doing....We can not go around braging that we got saved and permission to go to heaven on something that we did.

10...is saying we are His creation or masterpiece in which He has made us NEW in Christ so we can do the GOOD things which He has planned for us to do. We all have a calling or Plan for our lives. It's the most wonderful plan at that. It is where or Grace runs High and our Joy and everything else good is at. God has more good things in store for us then most will ever know, BUT we have got to walk in His ways to get to the place where he will release them into our lives.

I also wanted to add this........you have heard it said....Faith with out works is dead...........Many Christians get caught up in the doing of good works and this makes their faith good. Well it is always a good thing to do good things for God BUT............
the works here simply refer to doing what His written word says...Example.....walking in Love and Forgiveness is not an option. It is a command from God to us..With out love and forgiveness....Faith does not have a chance to grow or produce GOOD results as it is created to do. Works here means obeying and doing what the word of God says to do.....

I sure hope this makes sense to you......
Blessings and Love
Jim

Hello Jim.
Well said Jim, mankind has an intrinsic obsession with self righteousness, Christianity is littered with the combination
of faith plus works for salvation. They are taught this grand falsehood from childhood and find it very difficult to see the truth.
They even see this combination in the scripture which is really surprising. Enjoy yourself on TJ.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Hello Jim.
Well said Jim, mankind has an intrinsic obsession with self righteousness, Christianity is littered with the combination
of faith plus works for salvation. They are taught this grand falsehood from childhood and find it very difficult to see the truth.
They even see this combination in the scripture which is really surprising. Enjoy yourself on TJ.

Hello DHC,
Thank you and I am enjoying myself here at TJ !!
I most defiantly know what you are saying. The thing that I have noticed lately is it seems that too many of the body of Christ has fallen into this works thing and hermeneutics as a way to study and know ther written word of God. Their understanding of the Word is off and they insist they are correct. I mean God says His word is hidden from the world or worldy view of things. He tells us we need to spiritually gain revelation from His word. Yikes.........got to save the saved.
Have a wonderful day
Jim

 

[Spockrates]

The soul is still hanging there waiting to be defined.
I never got your feedback on whether soul and spirit are different things.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
The soul is not mentioned but the spirit is.

Do you feel that you are spirit, a soul or flesh or something else?
Sometimes person is used instead of soul,a captain of a boat has souls on board.

Old testament
Strong's 5315 Nephesh=a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

New testament
Strong's 5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

Is there any scripture that provides evidence that a soul is eternal?

For the sake of being set free to discuss the causes of salvation, can we agree that one or more--soul or spirit or flesh--is saved? For no matter what is saved--and no matter how it is saved--the causes of such saving remain the same. So our goal is to keep our eyes on that finish line--that being the truth about what is required for such a desired salvation. Everything unnecessary to learning this truth is a rabbit trail that takes us off the path to reaching that goal. Agreed?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Everything unnecessary to learning this truth is a rabbit trail that takes us off the path to reaching that goal. Agreed?

Done
This is where I left off on that path.

When I consider that the apostle Paul repented about the way he had perceived Jesus
he did not use faith(although the faith of others may have played a part) because he had sudden undeniable revelation.
So without this totally in your face revelation of the supremacy of Jesus one receives revelation that leads to confrontation by the grace of God through faith.So it is the revelation that causes the confrontation and provides the option of repentance.

In this phase repentance and belief work in a sort of synergy.
The first step in the beginning of a journey is the journey.
A step in a different direction so to speak.
This is excepting that foundation which is already laid.
Any step after that builds on that secure foundation.
Thats why I see "saved" like in a video game because if my works are burnt up by the fire I have that foundation.
I don't have to die for the day to declare my works because if I am walking in the day I get daily backfeed.

Edit:You already commented on the saved part but what about Saul/Paul's revelation in relation to faith?

 

[Spockrates]

Hello Spock Rates,

First I want to place some meanings to the words Grace and Faith
Grace....Unmerited or un-earned favor or Gods overwhelming desire to treat us as if sin never happened.
Faith of course is the substance of things hoped for but yet not seen.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
8...For by grace are ye saved through faith; AND that not of yourselves: It is the Gift of God;
9... Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10..For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Lets look at verse 8....For by Grace. What grace? The Mercy and Goodness of God - are ye saved. Born again by the blood of Christ Jesus into the family of God OR made right with God and NOW Given the right to spend eternity with the Father. ...Through Faith....Believing in the name of Jesus- Believing He died on the cross for you- Believing He bore our sins for us and took our place in hell. - and that not of your selves. .. Nothing we did or can do to of our selves or on our own to achieve this. We can do no works to earn this for- it is a gift of God. Gods gift to us besides life if giving up his son for us on the cross. God gave us this gift of Christ Jesus just so we can be cleansed of sin and unrighteousness so He could have the Joy and Pleasure of us His creation, His children in His kingdom for eternity. Now that is Love !!

9...is simply talking about what I already said but adds ....that no man may boast...another words....we can not brag or CLAIM THIS ACHIEVEMENT of our selves or of our doing....We can not go around braging that we got saved and permission to go to heaven on something that we did.

10...is saying we are His creation or masterpiece in which He has made us NEW in Christ so we can do the GOOD things which He has planned for us to do. We all have a calling or Plan for our lives. It's the most wonderful plan at that. It is where or Grace runs High and our Joy and everything else good is at. God has more good things in store for us then most will ever know, BUT we have got to walk in His ways to get to the place where he will release them into our lives.

I also wanted to add this........you have heard it said....Faith with out works is dead...........Many Christians get caught up in the doing of good works and this makes their faith good. Well it is always a good thing to do good things for God BUT............
the works here simply refer to doing what His written word says...Example.....walking in Love and Forgiveness is not an option. It is a command from God to us..With out love and forgiveness....Faith does not have a chance to grow or produce GOOD results as it is created to do. Works here means obeying and doing what the word of God says to do.....

I sure hope this makes sense to you......
Blessings and Love
Jim

Hi Wired. Glad you replied.

So let's focus on verse 8 and use an imaginary situation to consider the truth of the words. Since I'm a fan of Spock and science fiction, this might suffice:

I'm an alien whose space craft has crashed on Earth. You are a linguist who is hired by the U.S. government to learn my language. After I'm nursed back to health, you are asked to try to communicate with me. I don't have a mouth as you know it and don't appear to communicate verbally, but there is written language in the wreckage of my space craft. In fact, there is a kind of Rosetta Stone from the wreckage, which has some words in my language juxtaposition to English, Arabic, Hebrew and other languages, some of which are not of Earth. Unfortunately, my assignment was to pilot the craft to Earth and the linguist who was on the mission with be perished in the crash.

After much research you are able to translate English into my alien language and begin communicating with me in writing. Since you are also a Christian you decide to translate the Bible for me. God created all life, you reason, and Christ must have died for aliens as well as humans. So you begin with Ephesians and translate chapter 2, through verse 10.

My question for the sake of discussion is this: Will I now have everything I need to know to be saved, or will you need to translate another passage from the Bible to give me the full truth about salvation? If I need another passage, which one will you translate for me?

 

[Spockrates]

Done
This is where I left off on that path.

When I consider that the apostle Paul repented about the way he had perceived Jesus
he did not use faith(although the faith of others may have played a part) because he had sudden undeniable revelation.
So without this totally in your face revelation of the supremacy of Jesus one receives revelation that leads to confrontation by the grace of God through faith.So it is the revelation that causes the confrontation and provides the option of repentance.

In this phase repentance and belief work in a sort of synergy.
The first step in the beginning of a journey is the journey.
A step in a different direction so to speak.
This is excepting that foundation which is already laid.
Any step after that builds on that secure foundation.
Thats why I see "saved" like in a video game because if my works are burnt up by the fire I have that foundation.
I don't have to die for the day to declare my works because if I am walking in the day I get daily backfeed.

Edit:You already commented on the saved part but what about Saul/Paul's revelation in relation to faith?

So are you proposing this is the only and complete definition of the word faith, that is of the word that appears in Ephesians 2?

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
(Hebrews 11:1)
​

And are you thinking that after Paul saw Jesus, it was impossible for him to have faith in Jesus, since faith is having confidence, assurance or trust only in what is unseen and never in what is seen?

 

[Spockrates]

...

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So are you proposing this is the only and complete definition of the word faith, that is of the word that appears in Ephesians 2?

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
(Hebrews 11:1)
And are you thinking that after Paul saw Jesus, it was impossible for him to have faith in Jesus, since faith is having confidence, assurance or trust only in what is unseen and never in what is seen?

No,I didn't mean anything close to that
.

 

[Spockrates]

...

 

[Aenon]

I was away too long and I don't really know where to jump in anymore...

 

[Spockrates]

OK, sorry for having trouble understanding. Please try making your point in one sentence to make it clearer to me.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

...

well,now your getting closer

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

OK, sorry for having trouble understanding. Please try making your point in one sentence to make it clearer to me.

Let me state it in a question.
In Saul's encounter on the road to damascus,did he suddenly believe because of faith or confrontation?

 

[Spockrates]

Let me state it in a question.
In Saul's encounter on the road to damascus,did he suddenly believe because of faith or confrontation?

Question is too vague. Are you asking if he believed Jesus was God? Or are you asking if he believed the way to be saved? Or are you asking if he believed something altogether different from these?

 

[Spockrates]

I was away too long and I don't really know where to jump in anymore...

Aenon: I can't speak for anyone else, but I myself would very much like to hear more about your ideas on salvation. It seems we agree that one is likely not saved from hell through faith alone. I think you would say repentance is also required, and probably even more than these two conditions must be met.

 

[Spockrates]

Aenon: But I believe the last question addressed to you was post 202.

 

[Aenon]

Aenon: I can't speak for anyone else, but I myself would very much like to hear more about your ideas on salvation. It seems we agree that one is likely not saved from hell through faith alone. I think you would say repentance is also required, and probably even more than these two conditions must be met.

This sort of gets into my understanding of what hell actually is. I don't believe hell to be a cosmic prison that bad people are condemned to. I believe hell is the inverted experience of eternal life with God, which is eternal corruption from the presence of God. This is why sanctification is important, because it purges you of everything (metaphorically/spiritually) flammable.

That said, I do not believe scripture says anything to support the idea that faith and works are somehow separate things. James says we must prove our faith BY our works. Love, charity, repentance, etc. These things justify your faith, and prove its salvific power within you.