Matthew 12:40
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Brother Paul
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No! You see what you have here is a hermeneutical logic flaw. There are at least ten places that speak of ON the third day (excluding a third night which would make the Rez on the 4th DAY) and we KNOW the day He was crucified was considered day 1 (which excluded the evening portion of that day). Five other places refer to the third day in another sense and two say after three days and your passage is used only once to speak about WHO it was that was with them and yet they still would not repent and believe (as did the Ninevites at a mere Jonah)....so any sound hermeneutical logic demands we interpret the one passage in light of all the others and not the others in light of the one. Otherwise one could say we can only baptize "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" and some others that one MUST believe and be baptized and that the Bread and the Wine are His physical body and blood and so on. In each case one has to take one and use it for the lens through which all other related usages and passages are to be interpreted.
Paul
Brother Paul,
re: "...any sound hermeneutical logic demands we interpret the one passage in light of all the others and not the others in light of the one."
Unless the one imposes specific requirements for the ten general statements regarding the same event. How do the "at least ten places that speak of ON the third day" preclude at least a part of each one of the daytimes and at least a part of each one of the night times that the Messiah said He would be in the "heart of the earth"?
re: "...any sound hermeneutical logic demands we interpret the one passage in light of all the others and not the others in light of the one."
Unless the one imposes specific requirements for the ten general statements regarding the same event. How do the "at least ten places that speak of ON the third day" preclude at least a part of each one of the daytimes and at least a part of each one of the night times that the Messiah said He would be in the "heart of the earth"?
Brother Paul
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Because if we look at it in the reversed order (1st night 1st day, then 2nd night 2nd day, then 3rd night 3rd day) He still rises on the 4th day only during the night portion of that day (which would be fine except it still becomes the 4th making the rest of scripture either in error or a self contradiction). ALSO if we look at it in Day/Night order (which is western thinking) we have (1st day 1st night, 2nd day 2nd night, 3rd day 3rd night) Him STILL rising ON the 4th day....SO,,,
a) if we take it literal all of scripture is in error or Jesus was mistaken, or
b) we look at it as somehow meaning the same thing (as in the idiomatic application)
Paul
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rstrats,
How many times will you have to explain this ?
I have several friends and brothers who have researched this and have posted on this in other forums. I will see if I can use their stuff and one was to join here the other day but has yet to. I was surprised in what they brought to the table and it confirmed some things in me as well.
I will get back to you soon.
Blessings and have a blessed 2015 and Blessed Resurrection Day as well
Jim
Brother Paul
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rstrats,
How many times will you have to explain this ?
I have several friends and brothers who have researched this and have posted on this in other forums. I will see if I can use their stuff and one was to join here the other day but has yet to. I was surprised in what they brought to the table and it confirmed some things in me as well.
I will get back to you soon.
Blessings and have a blessed 2015 and Blessed Resurrection Day as well
Jim
I think what Rstrats is referring to is how there are some who adamantly insist Jesus was crucified on a Wed, others a Thurs (I even saw one fight for a Tues, and very well at that)...though I could be wrong but there are not too many here that express such views
You also be blessed and celebrate our blessing my brother...
Paul
Brother Paul,
re: "I think what Rstrats is referring to is how there are some who adamantly insist Jesus was crucified on a Wed, others a Thurs..."
That is incorrect. I'm addressing my request to those who think the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week - not the 5th or 4th day.
re: "I think what Rstrats is referring to is how there are some who adamantly insist Jesus was crucified on a Wed, others a Thurs..."
That is incorrect. I'm addressing my request to those who think the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week - not the 5th or 4th day.
Brother Paul
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I stand corrected, and by 6th day I assume you mean in the sense that the ancient Hebrews understood it (Thurs eve at sunset to Friday eve at sunset).
So again maybe you can clarify...are you saying that when a number is associated in such a phrase, it necessitates at least a part of each day period and each night period? So that in this case at least part of day period one (that day's night period already having passed) and at least part of the third night period? So in effect at least part of day period one followed by night period one, then day two/night two, and then day period three and at least part of night period three?
Thanks
Paul
So again maybe you can clarify...are you saying that when a number is associated in such a phrase, it necessitates at least a part of each day period and each night period? So that in this case at least part of day period one (that day's night period already having passed) and at least part of the third night period? So in effect at least part of day period one followed by night period one, then day two/night two, and then day period three and at least part of night period three?
Thanks
Paul
Brother Paul,
re: "...and by 6th day I assume you mean in the sense that the ancient Hebrews understood it..."
Yes.
re: "So again maybe you can clarify...are you saying that when a number is associated in such a phrase, it necessitates at least a part of each day period and each night period?"
Yes, I think that is most likely the case. I see no scriptural reason for thinking that Matthew 12:40 has to mean something less than that.
re: "...and by 6th day I assume you mean in the sense that the ancient Hebrews understood it..."
Yes.
re: "So again maybe you can clarify...are you saying that when a number is associated in such a phrase, it necessitates at least a part of each day period and each night period?"
Yes, I think that is most likely the case. I see no scriptural reason for thinking that Matthew 12:40 has to mean something less than that.
Brother Paul
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So presuming He rose on the third day as He says and prophecies in so many places, that all others attest to, let us go in reverse according to your literal interpretation of 12:40….
He rose in the night period (the 1st half) of the third day, preceded by the day portion and night portion of the 2nd day (2 nights and 1 day), preceded by the day portion and night portion of the 1st day (that makes 3 nights but only 2 days) and thus had to be crucified the previous day portion (making 3 days and 3 nights) before the 1st day (and now we enter logical absurdity once again). Can you explain this dilemma your understanding creates?
Paul
He rose in the night period (the 1st half) of the third day, preceded by the day portion and night portion of the 2nd day (2 nights and 1 day), preceded by the day portion and night portion of the 1st day (that makes 3 nights but only 2 days) and thus had to be crucified the previous day portion (making 3 days and 3 nights) before the 1st day (and now we enter logical absurdity once again). Can you explain this dilemma your understanding creates?
Paul
Brother Paul,
re: "Can you explain this dilemma your understanding creates?"
The Messiah's forecast was that He would be in the 'heart of the earth' for a period of time that would involve 3 nights. There are 3 nights involved between a 5th day of the week afternoon entombment and a 1st day of the week resurrection. Matthew 27;63 and Mar 8:31 say that the Messiah would rise after 3 [calendar] days. And Luke 24:21 indicates that the entombment couldn't have occurred any latter than the 5th day of the week. And then there are Mark 16:1 and Luke 23;56 which seem to show that 2 sabbaths were involved - the annual sabbath and the weekly sabbath. So in light of the above, it would not be unreasonable to understand that the verses that say on the third day are referring to the third day after the entombment.
re: "Can you explain this dilemma your understanding creates?"
The Messiah's forecast was that He would be in the 'heart of the earth' for a period of time that would involve 3 nights. There are 3 nights involved between a 5th day of the week afternoon entombment and a 1st day of the week resurrection. Matthew 27;63 and Mar 8:31 say that the Messiah would rise after 3 [calendar] days. And Luke 24:21 indicates that the entombment couldn't have occurred any latter than the 5th day of the week. And then there are Mark 16:1 and Luke 23;56 which seem to show that 2 sabbaths were involved - the annual sabbath and the weekly sabbath. So in light of the above, it would not be unreasonable to understand that the verses that say on the third day are referring to the third day after the entombment.
Brother Paul
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First there is nothing that says the two sabbaths were not on the same day in that year. Second, the term "preparation day" refers to preparing for the 7th day Sabbath and there is one for the Feast of Unleavened Bread but not for the Passover (as there is no preparation day for the Passover mentioned in the Torah). The problem arises that He was crucified ON the preparation day which would not itself be a Sabbath because that would require working ON the/a Sabbath.
So note Josephus reference to the preparation day for the 7th day Sabbath..."...that they be not obliged to go before any judge on the sabbath day, nor on the day of the preparation to it, after the ninth hour." — Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVI, Chapter VI, 2. Thus, the the day after the crucifixion was a Sabbath, because the women rested that day (not for two days). Therefore, the crucifixion had to have occurred on our Friday afternoon.
Friday Preparation/6th day - Exodus 16:5 see Matt 26:20 - 27:61; Mark 14:17 - 15:47; Luke 22:14 - 23:56; John 13:1 - 19:42
Matthew
Saturday 7th day Sabbath Matt 27:62 - 27:66; Mark 16:1; Luke 23:56;
Sunday 1st day of Week Matt 28:1 - 28:15; Mark 16:1 - 16:13; Luke 24:1 - 24:53; John 20:1 - 20:23
Nah! I'll stick with our Friday afternoon for now as I do not see any compelling evidence for your view...
Just my $.02
Though I would love to hear others chime in so I will stop here...
Paul
So note Josephus reference to the preparation day for the 7th day Sabbath..."...that they be not obliged to go before any judge on the sabbath day, nor on the day of the preparation to it, after the ninth hour." — Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVI, Chapter VI, 2. Thus, the the day after the crucifixion was a Sabbath, because the women rested that day (not for two days). Therefore, the crucifixion had to have occurred on our Friday afternoon.
Friday Preparation/6th day - Exodus 16:5 see Matt 26:20 - 27:61; Mark 14:17 - 15:47; Luke 22:14 - 23:56; John 13:1 - 19:42
Matthew
Saturday 7th day Sabbath Matt 27:62 - 27:66; Mark 16:1; Luke 23:56;
Sunday 1st day of Week Matt 28:1 - 28:15; Mark 16:1 - 16:13; Luke 24:1 - 24:53; John 20:1 - 20:23
Nah! I'll stick with our Friday afternoon for now as I do not see any compelling evidence for your view...
Just my $.02
Though I would love to hear others chime in so I will stop here...
Paul
Brother Paul,
OK, I've given several reasons from scripture against a 6th day of the week crucifixion. You've given your reasons for a 6th day of the week crucifixion based essentially on the idea that the Matthew, Mark, Luke and John references with regard to the 'day of preparation' has to be referring to the day before the weekly Sabbath.
I could counter with a quote by Rabbi Samuel Lacks who states: "The day of preparation (Greek paraskeue) equals Friday or the day before a holiday." - [A Rabbinic Commentary of the New Testament].
I think we'll have to leave it at that.
I hadn't intended this topic to be a discussion with regard to the day of the crucifixion. There are other topics going on that are dedicated to that purpose. I merely am interested in what is requested in the OP.
OK, I've given several reasons from scripture against a 6th day of the week crucifixion. You've given your reasons for a 6th day of the week crucifixion based essentially on the idea that the Matthew, Mark, Luke and John references with regard to the 'day of preparation' has to be referring to the day before the weekly Sabbath.
I could counter with a quote by Rabbi Samuel Lacks who states: "The day of preparation (Greek paraskeue) equals Friday or the day before a holiday." - [A Rabbinic Commentary of the New Testament].
I think we'll have to leave it at that.
I hadn't intended this topic to be a discussion with regard to the day of the crucifixion. There are other topics going on that are dedicated to that purpose. I merely am interested in what is requested in the OP.
Brother Paul
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I agree and it melted down into that...as I have said before I have seen some great apologetics for a 5th day crucifixion (some in fact from you) and can see how some come to that conclusion but on that issue we will have to agree to disagree...there are some who see a 4th day and Rez ON the Sabbath (?!?)...Shalom
Perhaps a further rewording of the OP will make it a bit more clear: Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently assert that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I wonder if anyone knows of any writing that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights? If it is using common idiomatic language, there ought to be examples of that usage in order to be able to make the assertion that it is common usage.
Thiscrosshurts
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Can you give an example of how time proceeds in the grave.
Do you have an indication of whether this time is relative to the world or the grave where the sun doesn't shine.
The word day is not restricted to linear time relative to our perception.
B-A-C
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Why is so important to you? Are you trying to discredit the Bible? What is the purpose of this?
Why does Jesus need to be raised on the 6th day of the week? What does this prove?
Matt 16:21; third day
Matt 17:23; third day
Matt 20:19; third day
Luke 9:22; third day
Luke 13:32; third day
Luke 18:33; third day
Luke 24:7; third day
Luke 24:46; third day
Acts 10:40; third day
1 Cor 15:4; third day
Matt 26:61; three days
Matt 27:40; three days
Matt 27:63; three days
Mark 8:31; three days
Mark 9:31; three days
Mark 10:34; three days
Mark 14:58; three days
John 2:19-20; three days
Nearly 20 verses here all say 3 days. Now you want to take one single verse.... (that doesn't really 6 days anywhere)
and somehow make it disagree with the preceding 20 verses above?
Three days (12 hours).. and three nights (12 hours)... still make 3 days. Why add anything to that?
Why spend so much time and effort trying to make this disagree with the rest of the Bible?
Jesus said He would rise on the third day. Are you trying to make Him a liar?
Even if the preceding 20 verses all said 6 days... so what? What difference would it make... really?
He died... he rose... that's what matters. Would His death and sacrifice somehow mean something different?
Why does Jesus need to be raised on the 6th day of the week? What does this prove?
Matt 16:21; third day
Matt 17:23; third day
Matt 20:19; third day
Luke 9:22; third day
Luke 13:32; third day
Luke 18:33; third day
Luke 24:7; third day
Luke 24:46; third day
Acts 10:40; third day
1 Cor 15:4; third day
Matt 26:61; three days
Matt 27:40; three days
Matt 27:63; three days
Mark 8:31; three days
Mark 9:31; three days
Mark 10:34; three days
Mark 14:58; three days
John 2:19-20; three days
Nearly 20 verses here all say 3 days. Now you want to take one single verse.... (that doesn't really 6 days anywhere)
and somehow make it disagree with the preceding 20 verses above?
Three days (12 hours).. and three nights (12 hours)... still make 3 days. Why add anything to that?
Why spend so much time and effort trying to make this disagree with the rest of the Bible?
Jesus said He would rise on the third day. Are you trying to make Him a liar?
Even if the preceding 20 verses all said 6 days... so what? What difference would it make... really?
He died... he rose... that's what matters. Would His death and sacrifice somehow mean something different?
B-A-C
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You've asked this question at least 5 or times now. Apparently no one knows of any writings.
I can't see why anyone would be looking for any such writings. But even if we found some... and they disagreed with the
verses in the previous post. Would we suddenly discount all of those verses for something that doesn't come from the Bible?
