Faith, and Unbelief
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Curtis
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Faith, referring to what comes by hearing the Word.
RJ
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What about the faith that comes from God as a gift?
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Having faith and unbelief at the same time is an impossibility.
Curtis
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Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Yes, a man can have "Faith", and "unbelief" all at the same time. This man heard who Jesus was and believed (had faith) him to be the Messiah, yet at the same he had no faith (unbelief) to believe for his sons healing.
Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Yes, a man can have "Faith", and "unbelief" all at the same time. This man heard who Jesus was and believed (had faith) him to be the Messiah, yet at the same he had no faith (unbelief) to believe for his sons healing.
Curtis
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Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
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This is only contextual to Mark, and it appears that you take it out of context; I see nothing here about faith according to normal New Testament standards. The father was struggling between belief and unbelief yes, but there is nothing here to indicate faith.
RJ
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The word "believe" in this verse means, "to have faith". The word "unbelief" means, "to have no faith" or to be "faithless"
I know @Curtis it appears that we have very little in common regarding scripture, I am truly sadden by this, but what you say simply above does not apply here. This verse in Mark was written in a time when Jesus was alive, they all were still very much under the confines of the Old Covenant, because Jesus hadn't died yet, the New Covenant had not been ushered in and faith was not the same as it is now.
These are New Covenant verses:
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 12:3
The gift to give "each their own measure of faith" is by Grace and a gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling man. This only has occurred with the New Covenant. The man in your verse from Mark struggled with belief but faith he had none! Abraham was credited with faith because of his unwavering belief, not that he had faith on his own. Now, we have faith and God credits us with righteousness because of Jesus in us, this was not available during the Old Covenant. I am truly sorry if this interpretation is in conflict with what you know.
I know @Curtis it appears that we have very little in common regarding scripture, I am truly sadden by this, but what you say simply above does not apply here. This verse in Mark was written in a time when Jesus was alive, they all were still very much under the confines of the Old Covenant, because Jesus hadn't died yet, the New Covenant had not been ushered in and faith was not the same as it is now.
These are New Covenant verses:
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 12:3
The gift to give "each their own measure of faith" is by Grace and a gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling man. This only has occurred with the New Covenant. The man in your verse from Mark struggled with belief but faith he had none! Abraham was credited with faith because of his unwavering belief, not that he had faith on his own. Now, we have faith and God credits us with righteousness because of Jesus in us, this was not available during the Old Covenant. I am truly sorry if this interpretation is in conflict with what you know.
Curtis
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Brother, what you believe is how you see scripture, What I believe is how I see scripture. What you believe does not effect me, and what I believe does not effect you. But, What you believe does effect you, and what I believe for sure effects me. Jesus walked under the Old Covenant, and we are to emulate how Jesus walked and how he used faith. Faith works the same weather it is under Old or New Covenant. Faith has always come only by hearing the Word of God. If it comes by another means then we would not need to hear the Gospel. As it is written.....
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The "measure" of faith is very specific to the promise from where it comes. What does that mean? It means when someone hears the message concerning "salvation" those words give the "measure of faith" needed to give to that person so they can be saved. You can NOT take "saving" faith and apply it to bring healing to your body!! Why? Because that saving faith was salvation only. It was the exact "measure" needed to bring salvation! If a man needs healing for his body, he has to go to other scriptures that tells him he can have healing in the Bible and "extract" faith from those Words to get the "measure" of faith for his healing!
Every promise in the bible comes with its own separate grace and faith. Every promise gives the exact needed measure of faith to bring that promise to pass. You can mix them together. The "measure of faith" is always specific to each and every promise of God. This is why we see people all the time who are saved, but needing healing, or their needs are not met which the Bible promises they are. They do not know how to aquire the needed "measure" of faith to get these things.
This man who had "faith" and "unbelief" at the same time suffered from this problem of not knowing how to have faith for his sons healing. He had faith to believe that Jesus was Lord, but he had no faith to believe for his sons' healing. Why? Because faith is specific to the Word that gives it!!
Wired 4 Fishen
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Wired 4 Fishen
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RJ
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Simple, it is not the same faith as now:
- Jeremiah 31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. The promise, the New Covenant, the receiving of God's spirit into one's self, born again....not a part of the Old Covenant.
- Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Faith a gift, as a part of the New Covenant, not instituted during the Old Covenant
- Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. In the New Covenant, do not think of yourselves as responsible but your faith initially comes from God
- Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. I am not saying, even in the Old Covenant, that faith is not closely related to belief, but I can't find any translations of this verse that say faith, they say it was by belief that Abraham was credited with righteousness. I see by the above verses, to me, faith during the Old Covenant is not the same as faith in the new Covenant.
- This entire series of post was derived from a statement that one could have faith and unbelief at the same time and taken as a stand alone statement is irresponsible according to the New Covenant definition of faith: Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is not man's definition of faith but that of God, and infused into man by the ushering in of the new Covenant and the infusion of the Holy Spirit........not part of the Old Covenant!
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Yes, we come, again, to another impasse, where we will have to agree to disagree!
amadeus2
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When a person is riding the fence, isn't he wanting the best of two very opposed worlds? He wants to receive the blessings of God without any of the curses. To work this way is to look unnecessarily for trouble. It may be unnecessary considering God's promises, but nonetheless it is what man do on a daily basis:
"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10
They ought not to be, but too often they most certainly are...
"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16
The man described in Mark was lukewarm, with a mixture of good (belief) and evil (unbelief), but recognizing this, he asked Jesus for help, which Jesus gladly provided.
Even the closest followers of Jesus who did have some faith asked for more: "And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith" Luke 17:5
Men do try to serve both God and mammon, but eventually they must choose between the two. A lot of church goers are riding the fence, but in the end with God's help they will choose the "strait gate" or without His help they will go through the "broad ...way that leadeth to destruction.." (Matt 7:13-14)
Curtis
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Brother, what do you consider "increased" faith? Is just more of the same, or is it more in diversity?
Thiscrosshurts
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That's a really good question,I'm thinking both and maybe more.
The subject of faith itself is complex so I feel we have these divisions because we use the word faith in different ways.
The word faith is really a fuzzy concept when you ponder it.
We don't need faith for what can be seen clearly but for what can almost be seen.
The less "almost seen" the more faith is needed to believe but at some point it becomes fantasy if there is not any evidence.
At one time I thought I had evidence that santa was real but it turned out to be an illusion based on deception.
So it is possible to have misplaced faith.
What would perfect faith look like.
I think that we can look at the stories where Jesus commended people for using faith and look at the patterns in those stories.
The kind of faith I would like to have is the kind Jesus's mother had when she simply mentioned that they were out of wine.
He basically said no but she had faith in her understanding of his character and nature that she knew he would respond.
She also had to have faith in his ability to pull off the impossible.
Had she seen him do impossible things before?
My daughter who is in college recently dropped off her 2002 Honda accord in my driveway and told me the motor was blown.
I told her how difficult it is to work on cars at my house and my neighborhood doesn't allow it and,and..ect.
She stopped me and said "I know daddy just let me know what parts you need and I'll get them somehow".
So I have an engine where my dining room table was.
She had faith in my character to complain but do it anyway.
She had faith in my ability because she saw me rebuild her brothers truck engine the same way.
So we to have to have faith in God's ability to respond to us.
We also have to have faith in his desire (based on our understanding of his character) to respond to us in spite of circumstances
and past hurts and failures,or even scripture that seems to condemn.
Curtis
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I myself do not believe that faith starts small and then gains in strength. When I first was saved, I heard the Word of God which gave me faith to be salved. If faith did grow from a weak to a strong state, and I am now stronger in faith, does that mean I am now "more" saved then I was before, now that my faith is stronger?
I think not. I do believe faith grows more in diversity than it does in strength. In other words faith does not grow in quality, it grows in quantity!
I think not. I do believe faith grows more in diversity than it does in strength. In other words faith does not grow in quality, it grows in quantity!
