And lead us not into temptation
- Thread starter robaston
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Bendito
Loyal
To pray to the Father, as in the Lords prayer, as written, is to ask God to do, or not do something that He already does or does not do....for example;
James 1:12-14 (KJV)
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
God already said He does not tempt us, so why would we ask Him not to?
Bendito
Loyal
Temptation is a good sense would be to test for the purpose of finding weak areas to be strengthened
In the bad sense it would be testing for the incitement to sin.
Bendito
Loyal
RJ
Active
Before I say anything, I love the "Lord's Prayer" and say it often, but I do have a different perspective on it.
When Jesus gave us this prayer it was an answer to a request from a disciple in which can be found in Luke 11: 1-2.
The significance, I believe, was when it was given, under what covenant.?
This occurred before Jesus's death burial and resurrection, before he ushered in the New Covenant.
During this time that he was asked for " how to pray" he answered under the Old Covenant.
Many people don't look at it this way, after all Luke and most of the works of Jesus was a part of the New Testament, but what we often fail to think about, most of it was under the law. Until his death and resurrection, no one followed the law more perfectly than Jesus. When he was given the request on how to pray, his answer was under the confines of the Old Covenant and Mosaic Law. The prayer was given as a "Daily requirement! That daily requirement has changed under the New Covenant.
When Jesus gave us this prayer it was an answer to a request from a disciple in which can be found in Luke 11: 1-2.
The significance, I believe, was when it was given, under what covenant.?
This occurred before Jesus's death burial and resurrection, before he ushered in the New Covenant.
During this time that he was asked for " how to pray" he answered under the Old Covenant.
Many people don't look at it this way, after all Luke and most of the works of Jesus was a part of the New Testament, but what we often fail to think about, most of it was under the law. Until his death and resurrection, no one followed the law more perfectly than Jesus. When he was given the request on how to pray, his answer was under the confines of the Old Covenant and Mosaic Law. The prayer was given as a "Daily requirement! That daily requirement has changed under the New Covenant.
Bendito
Loyal
My friend, let it occur to you that it's possible that the words we read in our bibles contain a certain amount of 'drift' from accuracy....did Jesus teach His disciples to ask for something He already did? That would not be faith, not at all... Let me give you this....see what you think...Before I do....I'll say....I love the Lords Prayer too
So....
Our Father which art in heaven---Deuteronomy 26:15 Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven
Hallowed be thy name. ---1 Chronicles 16:10 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.
Thy kingdom come--- Luke 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Thy will be done in earth--- Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God.
as it is in heaven--- Luke 11:2 Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
You give us this day our daily bread--- Philippians 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
And you forgive us our debts--- Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
as we forgive our debtors--- Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
You lead us not into temptation--- James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
but YOU deliver us from evil--- 2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
For thine is the kingdom--- Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
and the power, and the glory--- 1 Chronicles 29:11 Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
Forever--- Exodus 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever. (ever= greek aiōn = an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
Amen (so it is, so be it, may it be fulfilled)
This being so. The Lords Prayer would be a series of statements of faith. Not requests.
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Do you see what I mean....there may be a bit of a drift from accuracy?
robaston
Active
i like rj's take on the context of the question from the disciple. i like the fact the common interpretation of the prayer offers up a challenge to rj...to look deeper at the context. The Lord's reply may well of being "a template" in keeping with the old cov-keeping disciples of John.
What is want to focus on is the granting of discernment or as bro Bendito says Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man
What is want to focus on is the granting of discernment or as bro Bendito says Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man
RJ
Active
Of course there is no denying what you are trying to say and that of @Bendito . I still offer this, Jesus's answer was given under the strict confines of the Old covenant; don't forget Jesus was, prior to the New Covenant, still totally faithful to the Mosaic law. Since he couldn't violate that confines, leads me only to believe he was telling the disciples that this was a daily requirement, how they needed to pray each day, right along with many other daily statutes, leading up to the required day of atonement.
Now, if you daily ask God to forgive you, I think he would ask: " Why are you asking me to do something that I have already done for you, don't you understand, believe and appreciate this?
That's just me...great discussion!
Now, if you daily ask God to forgive you, I think he would ask: " Why are you asking me to do something that I have already done for you, don't you understand, believe and appreciate this?
That's just me...great discussion!
Wired 4 Fishen
Loyal
James 1:4 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Wired 4 Fishen
Loyal
I have a hard time believing Jesus came teaching the old covenant - He taught what we have - the New Covenant. He prepared the way for it's time. He taught the disciples and others this new covenant or the Gospel or the good newes.
How about taking it one step farther
Your kingdom Come and be established in my life as it is in heaven
Your will be done here in earth and my life as it is in heaven.
See where I am going with this ?
Blessings
Jim
Wired 4 Fishen
Loyal
RJ said...........
Now, if you daily ask God to forgive you, I think he would ask: " Why are you asking me to do something that I have already done for you, don't you understand, believe and appreciate this?
What then do we do with 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Now if you are referring to the fasct thast Jesus has died for All sin - past, present and future then that would be correct However - just like anything else - we still have to ask........ Un-repenative sin will block your faith and slow down your results just like unforgiveness and lack of walking in love.
God Bless
Jim
KingJ
Loyal
I agree and disagree with RJ.
On the one hand he is right. Jesus did not visit the Chinese, Saxons or Gauls. He spoke to Jews. He taught from the OT scrolls in the synagogues. He could not teach the new life in Him as the cross was still en route.
Paul was chosen for this. Paul's rebuke of Peter settles the case 100% Gal 2:11-21.
Now on the other hand. If we study scripture properly we will find that there are not two gospels. The heart of God behind every law is what Paul taught. It was only bar the curses, blessings and religiosity of them all.
I see no issue with that prayer from Jesus. Every word there can apply to both covenants.
God never lead anyone into temptation. The context there is ''don't give up on us''. It is the same as some accusing God of hardening peoples hearts. God does not harden anyone's heart in the literal sense. They do it with their rebellion. There just comes a point where He hands us over to the desires of our flesh. IE God hardening our hearts = Him stopping His attempts to soften them.
Bendito
Loyal
I agree. Jesus gave us a 'how to' in prayer...Though I do believe our bibles drifted from accuracy in the interpretation...I believe Jesus said it as a series of statements of faith rather than asking God to do as He had already done.
Lanolin
Active
You need to quote the whole verse which is -lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
I think a lot of christians fall short of the deliverance part.
many then think its ok to still go ahead and walk in the way of sinners. But Jesus sets us free so we don't have to go back there.
I think a lot of christians fall short of the deliverance part.
many then think its ok to still go ahead and walk in the way of sinners. But Jesus sets us free so we don't have to go back there.
RJ
Active
There is a simple explanation for this but many disagree...This passage was for the unbeliever, primarily that of Gnostics of that time.
That being correct, there is no "However"!
Ask for what, I though you just said past, present and future sins. "Just like anything else" would require you to see and be aware of each sin....there are countless ways to sin, what if you don't see one, what then?
No, UN-repentant sin means you are aware of a sin but UN-repentant for it...there is no faith or salvation there. A "Born Again" Christian hates sin and has a repentant heart but doesn't necessarily realize each time he sins.
Bendito
Loyal
Lanolin How about "You do not lead us into temptation, but you deliver us from evil" ?
RJ
Active
That is right, we do fall short but, with Jesus in us, he determines and secures our deliverance in us.
I give God all the power and the glory and none of me, but with him in me, I hate sin and certainly do not willfully sin!
That is right, with him in us, it is his blamelessness and righteousness that God credits us with and we are , therefore, completely set free!
RJ
Active
That is exactly right, with him in us, He leads us away from temptation and He delivers us from evil!