The Law or not the Law that is the question?

[amadeus2]

• is the second death even a possibility for anyone who has never been born again?.....It is not only possible but a Biblical fact. The "second death" is a spiritual death and a result of not being born again spiritually. Romans 6:23
  
• Who is it a possibility for?.....it is only possible for the non-believer. John 3:36

Everyone has the first death for that is where we were from the time of natural birth. As some already quoted on this thread, Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead" was speaking about unbelievers burying other unbelievers. No second death for them because they remain locked in first death.

Ahhh... but those who have obtained Life, the Life which Jesus is, when give away the Life they have received they die the second death. The wages of sin as per Rom 6:23 is death. All of mankind without Jesus is locked into death, but that is first death for them. No second death, but the dead have no need of dying.

 

[amadeus2]

I'm not sure what you're asking here my friend. The second death IS for those who were never born again, right?

Why should they have to die a second time. Remember again the verse quoted here by @Thiscrosshurts .

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

Jesus was speaking of unbelievers burying unbelievers. None of them had ever tasted real Life which was and is, Jesus. Why should who have never Lived need to die? What man calls life is not the Life of which Jesus speaks. It is not Life as God sees Life...

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Before Jesus came real Life had been lost. It was lost to men in the Garden of Eden to Adam and Eve and to all of their offspring. People have been born dead ever since until Jesus opened up the closed Door to the Tree of Life. But opening the Door doesn't give a person uncontrolled access to the Tree of Life.

Matt 22:11-13

When one of these dead people is spiritually resurrected, or brought to Life, or born again, then that person has the opportunity to gain that was originally available to the first man Adam before he disobeyed God: Never ending Life. The Way to the Tree of Life is open. But... to enter in and approach that Tree required that a person be alive. Without the sacrifice of Jesus it was impossible because we were all dead in sin. With the new birth we may be alive, but we can still choose to die again: to look back at Sodom, to return as a dog to its vomit. to return to the pig sty from which we came out... to death again.

The second death doesn't happen to anyone who has, in the eyes of God, never Lived. It can happen to someone who received the invitation and managed to enter the Door Jesus opened... but improperly prepared. The second death is for those who having started out in death, came to Life, and then chose to return to death [the 2nd death].

 

[Brother-Paul]

You asked the questions, we just simply answered them!

Dear brother thank you for pointing that out to me. Did I not ask also that this discussion could be in another thread, due to the nature of the conversion and history of it running on and on?

Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

You'll find my answer in post # 123. Thank you.

Thank you brother.

 

[Brother-Paul]

A new thread has been created by B-A-C for OSAS.

Maybe we can continue the OSAS discussion there, see link below.

http://www.talkjesus.com/threads/osas-cruise-control.55330/

Back on topic, the Law or Not the Law?

Thank you, God Bless you, Jesus Loves you, I do too.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Back to the Law I add the following...

Galatians 5:22-23 (NKJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

As the song goes... 'LOVE conquers everything' (if it is divine love, agape love it does)

Our Bible is wrapped in Love from Genesis to Revelations.

Matthew 22:36-40 (NKJV)
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

1 Corinthians 13:12-13 (NKJV)
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

God IS Love.

 

[Chopper]

Yes, God always loves us. He loves even sinners. So God's love does not equal salvation.

Yes God is with us, yes He never leaves or forsakes us.
He didn't leave or forsake the Israelites that left Egypt. He was with them all the way.
He fed them, clothed them, protected them.... but that doesn't mean they all made it to the promised land.

Jesus was with Judas. He didn't leave him or forsake him. He fed him along with the other apostles.
He gave him power to heal the sick and raise the dead along with the other apostles.
He saved Judas from the storm in the boat along with the other apostles. Jesus never left Judas or forsook him.
But did Judas forsake Jesus. Did the Jews forsake God?

Just because God is with you not equal salvation.

You are absolutely right my friend. Many, many people claim to be saved. There actually are people who believe that this Country is Christian and if you're born here in the USA, you are a Christian. What a joke. Jesus is the One Who is serious about Salvation, people on the narrow road are too, BUT, those on the wide road are not.

Everyone who claims to be saved is not necessarily saved. Why? Their lifestyle gives them away. Hey, faith without works is dead, and that is the proof of the pudding....It's no secret that I'm a student of Predestination. That said, there is way to much Scripture that suggest that those who call themselves Christians can fall away....

Mat thew 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
24:11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

For many reasons, tribulation, hatred by friend's and relatives, false prophets who spew out false doctrines, and danger around every corner because of the wicked sinners in our sphere of living, a very large population of so called Christians, will turn away from their profession and experience the second death and be cast into the Lake of Fire.

As I have posted before, the Elect (Remnant) of God will not turn away from their faith and works in Jesus. All those who come to Christ Jesus for Salvation thru the "General Call of the Gospel" are faced with two roads to walk their new birth journey on. One road is very narrow and leads to life everlasting, or, the wide road that leads to destruction.

 

[RJ]

That said, there is way to much Scripture that suggest that those who call themselves Christians can fall away....

@Chopper , I love the way you shoot the truth straight from the hip, no dueling about God with you! I think we agree here: Many agree with you about scripture on "falling away" but also, there are some that feel you ( meaning them also) can be a Christian and fall away. Nothing can be further from the truth. There is nothing in scripture about a true (born again) Christian coming to the point that God would leave from inside them. Many are Christians in name only: In the end....Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
God Bless Pastor

 

[Chopper]

Why should they have to die a second time. Remember again the verse quoted here by @Thiscrosshurts .

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

Jesus was speaking of unbelievers burying unbelievers. None of them had ever tasted real Life which was and is, Jesus. Why should who have never Lived need to die? What man calls life is not the Life of which Jesus speaks. It is not Life as God sees Life...

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Before Jesus came real Life had been lost. It was lost to men in the Garden of Eden to Adam and Eve and to all of their offspring. People have been born dead ever since until Jesus opened up the closed Door to the Tree of Life. But opening the Door doesn't give a person uncontrolled access to the Tree of Life.

Matt 22:11-13

When one of these dead people is spiritually resurrected, or brought to Life, or born again, then that person has the opportunity to gain that was originally available to the first man Adam before he disobeyed God: Never ending Life. The Way to the Tree of Life is open. But... to enter in and approach that Tree required that a person be alive. Without the sacrifice of Jesus it was impossible because we were all dead in sin. With the new birth we may be alive, but we can still choose to die again: to look back at Sodom, to return as a dog to its vomit. to return to the pig sty from which we came out... to death again.

The second death doesn't happen to anyone who has, in the eyes of God, never Lived. It can happen to someone who received the invitation and managed to enter the Door Jesus opened... but improperly prepared. The second death is for those who having started out in death, came to Life, and then chose to return to death [the 2nd death].

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

 

[RJ]

All of mankind without Jesus is locked into death, but that is first death for them. No second death, but the dead have no need of dying.

All I can ask my friend, is where do you think these people, with out Jesus in them go when they die?
Romans 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
My friend, the unbelieving, those who, when they die physically, without Jesus in them, they die their "second death".....they are in hell, totally void of the presence of God and, therefore, considered to have died spiritually!
Jesus talked about being "born again"....that happens in this life, as a believer, Jesus is in you and you are re-born spiritually and, you are spiritually alive.......this is true of all true believers and their spiritual life will transcend from this physical life to the next and heaven!

 

[amadeus2]

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

I read you Chopper, and I guess that you disagree with me. That's OK so long as we're both headed in the right direction. We'll leave this for the moment if that is OK.

 

[amadeus2]

All I can ask my friend, is where do you think these people, with out Jesus in them go when they die?

They simply completely and finally die. No more perception, no more future, no more anything.

 

[RJ]

They simply completely and finally die. No more perception, no more future, no more anything.

That is a new one on me....Jesus talked more about hell then he did heaven.
Though there are many others, based on your understanding, could you please interpret the following scripture:

2 Thessalonians 1: 5-9 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

 

[Chopper]

All I can ask my friend, is where do you think these people, with out Jesus in them go when they die?
Romans 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
My friend, the unbelieving, those who, when they die physically, without Jesus in them, they die their "second death".....they are in hell, totally void of the presence of God and, therefore, considered to have died spiritually!
Jesus talked about being "born again"....that happens in this life, as a believer, Jesus is in you and you are re-born spiritually and, you are spiritually alive.......this is true of all true believers and their spiritual life will transcend from this physical life to the next and heaven!

Hey Buddy, you just hit a Home Run!! Bravo.

 

[Chopper]

I read you Chopper, and I guess that you disagree with me. That's OK so long as we're both headed in the right direction. We'll leave this for the moment if that is OK.

Of course old friend. Sometimes we just see things a little differently. You and I are Brothers who love each other. A difference of opinion doesn't matter a hoot. Because I respect you so much, I'll have to look at your post again and study it slow so I can pick up something I missed.

 

[Chopper]

"Everyone has the first death for that is where we were from the time of natural birth. As some already quoted on this thread, Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead" was speaking about unbelievers burying other unbelievers. No second death for them because they remain locked in first death."

This quote of yours is what I don't understand. Now if these are unbelievers, as I think you understand, after they die, all unbelievers will face the judgment, right? That judgment sends them to the lake of fire, which Scripture, which has already been posted, sends them to a second death, right?

 

[Mimi]

Hello,

Interesting thread, Couldn't possibly read the entire posts but just wanted to say the following truths.

The law I refer to is the moral law

1.God has always operated by grace (see Adam/Eve)
2. The Israelites said they could keep the law ( Exodus 19:8) basically they exchanged grace for law and we can all see how that turned out!
3. Grace and Law cannot operate at the same time. You either trust in God's grace or keep the law 100% more than the Pharisees as Jesus said
4. Jesus fulfilled the law, i.e Jesus kept the law 100% the law was about Christ ( God's standards, holiness) and if we have Christ in us through grace, what more law are you talking about?
5. The law was to help us know Gods standard, holiness, but also confess that we can't keep it. ( Gal 3:24-26)
6. As people who trust in the finished work of Christ, Grace enables us to live like Christ in this world ( we fall but we get up again!) as we are renewed daily by the Holy Spirit.

Saved first, then given the ability to live right, not the opposite.

Thank you.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

When one of these dead people is spiritually resurrected, or brought to Life, or born again, then that person has the opportunity to gain that was originally available to the first man Adam before he disobeyed God: Never ending Life. The Way to the Tree of Life is open. But... to enter in and approach that Tree required that a person be alive. Without the sacrifice of Jesus it was impossible because we were all dead in sin. With the new birth we may be alive, but we can still choose to die again: to look back at Sodom, to return as a dog to its vomit. to return to the pig sty from which we came out... to death again.

The second death doesn't happen to anyone who has, in the eyes of God, never Lived. It can happen to someone who received the invitation and managed to enter the Door Jesus opened... but improperly prepared. The second death is for those who having started out in death, came to Life, and then chose to return to death [the 2nd death].

I mostly agree with this interpretation seeing things from this level of reality.
There are many levels of reality though.

Psalm 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David i assume is speaking from our level of reality about two levels above him.
Then we have the level of the Father who sent "one".

We are being called into the "one" and out of the many.

High above all principalities and high places and every other imagination.
The Lord our God is "one".
In "one" there is no second death because there is no second anything.
Everything but "one" comes from the imagination.

John 6:29 Jesus replied, "This is the work of God: to believe in the One He has sent."
1 Corinthians 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

There are no things in one,it is above all things.
1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

In the end all things return to the "one",the eternal God.
Hell and any lower heaven cannot be eternal because that would be more than "one".
Death,hell and the grave are all things and any "one" who's name is not written in the Lambs book of life was cast into the lake of fire also.
I would venture to say that there is only "one"name in the lambs book of life,and we are in him.
The lake of fire is not for people,it is for purification and cleansing and a burning up of all things not useful.
Remember God is a fire,an all consuming flame.his ministers are flames of fire.

Of course a whole lot happens in the levels of the many to bring us into compliance with the love that is God.
In our Father's house there are many rooms or houses but they are not eternal.
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.

They simply completely and finally die. No more perception, no more future, no more anything.

I tend to agree with this on a certain level,on another level being born dead to life to begin with they never actually existed.
Judging the living is like judging a tree that is still in the seed.We are a seed that is capable of becoming a tree of life.
A seed is a small one time meal but when planted and cared for the fruit can provide an endless abundant meal for many.That's useful while we are stuck in the worlds of the many.

Acts 17:28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
We are all just perspectives of the one in whom we live and move and have our being just as all the people in your dreams are just perspectives of you being what you expect them to be.

 

[RJ]

With the new birth we may be alive, but we can still choose to die again: to look back at Sodom, to return as a dog to its vomit. to return to the pig sty from which we came out... to death again.

I believe that is wrong minded. I can't say about you but, for me, I will not return to my vomit, please keep me separated from this statement. Those who return to their vomit are another example of non-believers, those who have not been born anew spiritually yet!

 

[amadeus2]

Amadeus2: Everyone has the first death for that is where we were from the time of natural birth. As some already quoted on this thread, Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead" was speaking about unbelievers burying other unbelievers. No second death for them because they remain locked in first death."

This quote of yours is what I don't understand. Now if these are unbelievers, as I think you understand, after they die, all unbelievers will face the judgment, right? That judgment sends them to the lake of fire, which Scripture, which has already been posted, sends them to a second death, right?

All unbelievers who have never been anything else are "already dead". The little bit of time they have in this flesh on planet Earth is not really Life. What man calls death normally is not death to God. Jesus made this distinction although at time his followers did not understand.

To God men are dead unless and until they receive the Life which Jesus is. There is no reason for anyone to judge any of them. They are already condemnation and have done nothing to have the condemnation removed.They have effectively judged themselves along with the hypocrites of whom Jesus spoke: "they have their reward"[Matt 6:5]. Their reward was what ever they did or did not receive while walking in this bit of clay. they've already had their judgment.

Since they never acknowledge the truth of Jesus, they have no resurrection at all from their death for Jesus is the Resurrection.