The Law or not the Law that is the question?

[amadeus2]

I believe that is wrong minded. I can't say about you but, for me, I will not return to my vomit, please keep me separated from this statement. Those who return to their vomit are another example of non-believers, those who have not been born anew spiritually yet!

I cannot keep you separated from anything. That is between each person and God. Every time anyone who has really met the Master withdraws from Him or even looks back over his shoulder longing for some of his past prior to meeting the Master he is effectively longing for the vomit. Remember Jesus' words about adultery?

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matt 5:28

This applies not only to adultery. The things of this world for believers is the vomit which has been expelled them. If you have sinned at all since you were renewed you have returned to you own vomit.

Unbelievers don't return to their own vomit: They have never their vomit behind them.

We do not have more power to resist sin than Adam and Eve had before they disobeyed God the first time. They were newly made without sin and did disobey God. We have been renewed [without sin] and can disobey God. We are not better than Adam, but we can be... with God's help.

 

[amadeus2]

Hello,

Interesting thread, Couldn't possibly read the entire posts but just wanted to say the following truths.

The law I refer to is the moral law

1.God has always operated by grace (see Adam/Eve)
2. The Israelites said they could keep the law ( Exodus 19:8) basically they exchanged grace for law and we can all see how that turned out!

They said that they Would, but the truth was that they could not as Peter confirms here:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10

3. Grace and Law cannot operate at the same time. You either trust in God's grace or keep the law 100% more than the Pharisees as Jesus said

They cannot operate simultaneously? If this is so, why is it so? Can you provided some supportive scriptures?

4. Jesus fulfilled the law, i.e Jesus kept the law 100% the law was about Christ ( God's standards, holiness) and if we have Christ in us through grace, what more law are you talking about?

If you read the OP, you see that the question was as to how pertinent the Law which God gave to Moses was, or was, not significant to us as believers today. That is where it started, but we may have gone off on a tangent since then.

5. The law was to help us know Gods standard, holiness, but also confess that we can't keep it. ( Gal 3:24-26)
6. As people who trust in the finished work of Christ, Grace enables us to live like Christ in this world ( we fall but we get up again!) as we are renewed daily by the Holy Spirit.

Amen!

Saved first, then given the ability to live right, not the opposite.

Thank you.

And thank you! And again... amen!

 

[amadeus2]

I mostly agree with this interpretation seeing things from this level of reality.
There are many levels of reality though.

Psalm 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David i assume is speaking from our level of reality about two levels above him.
Then we have the level of the Father who sent "one".

I really did not understand much of what you wrote, but I will give the benefit of a doubt on it and search a little...

I see three levels depicted by Noah's Ark and again in the Tabernacle in the wilderness, which some call the three heavens. Is this what you mean by levels?

 

[RJ]

I cannot keep you separated from anything

Oh yes you can, don't you count me in as one who believes as you do..... You might be able to return to your vomit but not me!!!
Proverbs 26:11

• So a fool returns to his folly.—Though he knows it to be folly, and ruinous to him: but vice has become to him a second nature, and he cannot, even if he would, escape from it. This is especially true of those who have given way to drink or impurity of life.....doesn't sound like much of a believer to me!
• Though disgusting to others, the fool delights in his folly....doesn't sound like much of a believer to me!
• A wicked man returns to his wickedness....doesn't sound like a believer to me!

This wrong-minded talk of yours is, unfortunately, seriously dangerous and is the same thing as saying a Christian can lose his salvation, which is simply not true or scriptural!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I really did not understand much of what you wrote, but I will give the benefit of a doubt on it and search a little...

I see three levels depicted by Noah's Ark and again in the Tabernacle in the wilderness, which some call the three heavens. Is this what you mean by levels?

In this visible world there are many levels of reality.
The cells in body are you yet each leads a separate life.
Those individual cells organize to form organs which are still you but each organ is individual.
You are made of those organizations of cells but you seem to be an individual.
It's easy to see and understand the levels below us that form us but we don't see the levels above us.
We are more connected than we see with our five senses.
I think that's why we are told to love others as yourself because they are yourself at a level above.
The level above the animal is the mind and there seem to be two minds or maybe two levels of mind.
The mind of man and the mind of Christ.

I think David may have meant the mind of Christ said to my mind.
In other words my lord/master is my mind and the mind of Christ will make false imaginations my footstool the same way that the mind of Christ makes the world it's footstool.
The mind of Christ seems to me to have come from the mind of the Father who came from the mind of love or God.

I don't think I am a body,I think I am a mind experiencing a body.
When I sleep at night I experience a different body and world in my mind and that's why I don't think I am a body.
I have no enemies in this world because all things work together for good so my enemy is just my teacher teaching me how to be perfect or die.
My real enemies are the errors or false imaginations in the mind of man(which I share with all mankind).
The mind of Christ swallows up the mind of the man like light swallows up or cancels darkness.
I have to defeat the enemies in my mind and free the Christ mind to complete the task of destroying the old man or mind of the tree of good and evil.

Im not sure that makes much more sense but I am trying to describe something that can't readily be seen or understood using the things of this world.

 

[amadeus2]

Oh yes you can, don't you count me in as one who believes as you do..... You might be able to return to your vomit but not me!!!
Proverbs 26:11

• So a fool returns to his folly.—Though he knows it to be folly, and ruinous to him: but vice has become to him a second nature, and he cannot, even if he would, escape from it. This is especially true of those who have given way to drink or impurity of life.....doesn't sound like much of a believer to me!
• Though disgusting to others, the fool delights in his folly....doesn't sound like much of a believer to me!
• A wicked man returns to his wickedness....doesn't sound like a believer to me!

This wrong-minded talk of yours is, unfortunately, seriously dangerous and is the same thing as saying a Christian can lose his salvation, which is simply not true or scriptural!

I am sorry that we disagree on this, but we do. I must follow what is in my heart from God. So I believe. So I must do.

 

[amadeus2]

In this visible world there are many levels of reality.
The cells in body are you yet each leads a separate life.
Those individual cells organize to form organs which are still you but each organ is individual.
You are made of those organizations of cells but you seem to be an individual.
It's easy to see and understand the levels below us that form us but we don't see the levels above us.
We are more connected than we see with our five senses.
I think that's why we are told to love others as yourself because they are yourself at a level above.
The level above the animal is the mind and there seem to be two minds or maybe two levels of mind.
The mind of man and the mind of Christ.

When I was very young I became fascinated with the differences and similarities between the world of the telescope and the world of the microscope. It almost made me major in natural science in school. God caught hold of me to go another way. It is not that there is not much truth in that direction. There is, but taken by itself it is a dead end street as I see it. I cannot speak for you, but it is not really Christianity... at least not what I see Christianity as being. But, I am only a follower, not the final judge. I leave that to God.

I think David may have meant the mind of Christ said to my mind.
In other words my lord/master is my mind and the mind of Christ will make false imaginations my footstool the same way that the mind of Christ makes the world it's footstool.

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Ps 110:1

What is God saying to men with these words? Because you found something that seems to work you have accepted it. Believe me there is more to it than that. You need to find more purpose than that... or so I believe. God does have a complete plan that is not confused. It seems to me that you are looking the wrong direction. But... I only know my own reasoning and God to the extent that I know Him.

The mind of Christ seems to me to have come from the mind of the Father who came from the mind of love or God.

I don't think I am a body,I think I am a mind experiencing a body.
When I sleep at night I experience a different body and world in my mind and that's why I don't think I am a body.
I have no enemies in this world because all things work together for good so my enemy is just my teacher teaching me how to be perfect or die.
My real enemies are the errors or false imaginations in the mind of man(which I share with all mankind).
The mind of Christ swallows up the mind of the man like light swallows up or cancels darkness.
I have to defeat the enemies in my mind and free the Christ mind to complete the task of destroying the old man or mind of the tree of good and evil.

Im not sure that makes much more sense but I am trying to describe something that can't readily be seen or understood using the things of this world.

Actually I think that I do understand where you are coming from, but I still believe that it is the wrong place and the wrong direction. Thank you for being willing to share it with me. I'll be praying for you that God give you what He wants you to have in the way that He wants you to have it. [ Ireally am not trying to influence God to make you do it as I do it, but rather according to His will.]

Give God the glory!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Actually I think that I do understand where you are coming from, but I still believe that it is the wrong place and the wrong direction.]

Thanks for responding.
Where I'm coming from is not where I am so you may only slightly understanding the path that I took.

How can the ear say to the hand I don't need you.
I appreciate your perspective and your prayers.I remain open for correction at all times.
Depth of visual perception comes from two eyes that are close in proximity but with a
slightly different view so I need others perspective and someone might need mine.

To quote a wise man:

I am sorry that we disagree on this, but we do. I must follow what is in my heart from God. So I believe. So I must do.

 

[amadeus2]

Thanks for responding.
Where I'm coming from is not where I am so you may only slightly understanding the path that I took.

I can certainly hear this, my friend. My ears are sharp when God sees the need, but otherwise my hearing aids are needed and they don't work on a spiritual level.

How can the ear say to the hand I don't need you.
I appreciate your perspective and your prayers.I remain open for correction at all times.
Depth of visual perception comes from two eyes that are close in proximity but with a
slightly different view so I need others perspective and someone might need mine.

Again, I hear you loud and clear this time. When I read the Bible I come across verses, especially in the OT, that I do not presently see any meaning for me. I don't cast them out, but put them on the shelf for another time:


"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1

Just because I don't see the application or the time, doesn't mean that God does not. If I am sincere with Him and I need to then He will make it clear... in His time.

To quote a wise man:

"And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." Job 28:28

 

[Brother-Paul]

What is the Law that is applicable to Christians?

Matthew 22:36-40 (NKJV)
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Christians are to obey Jesus commandments, which include ALL items in the original Law that relate to 'LOVE'

Matthew 5:17-18 (NIV2011)
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Galatians 3:13 (NKJV)
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),

Matthew 7:12 (NIV2011)
12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

John 15:12-14 (NIV2011)
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

Exodus 20:1-17 (NKJV)
1 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 You shall have no other gods before Me. (LOVE God who created us and LOVES us)
4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; (LOVE God who created us and LOVES us)
5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (LOVE God and those God Loves keeping My Commandments)
7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. (LOVE God who created us and LOVES us)
8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Some may say which Sabbath? LOVE God who created and LOVES us. He wants us to LOVE and thank Him, Hallow is Name, also a key point in the Lord's Prayer)
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. (Due to the Curse we will have to work. But one day a week we are to set aside everything for the God who LOVES us and created us)
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (God who created all things including us, blessed a day so that we can show our LOVE for the God of LOVE)
12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you. (LOVE others as God LOVES us)
13 "You shall not murder. (LOVE others as God LOVES us)
14 "You shall not commit adultery. (LOVE others as God LOVES us)
15 "You shall not steal. (LOVE others as God LOVES us)
16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (LOVE others as God LOVES us)
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's." (LOVE others as God LOVES us)

37 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
(We are to Love God as He loves us - 10 Commandments 'Love God' who created all things and created us)
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

John 13:34-35 (NKJV)
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

There are many items in the Torah that do not relate to LOVE, feasts and any item that does not relate to LOVE, God's LOVE for us or our LOVE for God, are not in the commands Jesus has given us and told us to obey.

Everything I believe hinges on the one word LOVE and Jesus' commands.

 

[Chopper]

All unbelievers who have never been anything else are "already dead". The little bit of time they have in this flesh on planet Earth is not really Life. What man calls death normally is not death to God. Jesus made this distinction although at time his followers did not understand.

To God men are dead unless and until they receive the Life which Jesus is. There is no reason for anyone to judge any of them. They are already condemnation and have done nothing to have the condemnation removed.They have effectively judged themselves along with the hypocrites of whom Jesus spoke: "they have their reward"[Matt 6:5]. Their reward was what ever they did or did not receive while walking in this bit of clay. they've already had their judgment.

Since they never acknowledge the truth of Jesus, they have no resurrection at all from their death for Jesus is the Resurrection.

Have you forgotten....
Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

I believe everything you are saying except that you don't have them facing the Judgment listed above. Every man who was ever born will face a final judgment of their lifetime works.

 

[B-A-C]

There are many items in the Torah that do not relate to LOVE,

Amen!

Everything I believe hinges on the one word LOVE and Jesus' commands.

Well, I don't think love alone will get anyone into heaven. I believe faith is also required.

 

[RJ]

I am sorry that we disagree on this, but we do. I must follow what is in my heart from God. So I believe. So I must do.

Can't argue with that...Like mama always said, "you have to dance with the one who brought you to the dance"!

 

[RJ]

Well, I don't think love alone will get anyone into heaven. I believe faith is also required.

For sure, because it is a love that comes first from faith.
These three remain, faith, hope and love!
Without faith, there is no hope and with out hope born of faith there is not this type of love. If you have this love born originally from faith, then love is the greatest because it is the only one of the three that endures in heaven!

 

[RJ]

Every man who was ever born will face a final judgment of their lifetime works.

A very good Biblical point @Chopper. This would make a great thread and I bet there would be some good discussions! I would love to hear what others say. For sure all will be judged. For me, God is always talking about separation, wheat from tares, good from the bad and Sheep from Goats to name a few. Though I feel that I could possibly be "raked over the coals", I personally think that, in the end, his judgement is primarily a separation process and, the key is whether Jesus is in you or not!

 

[Brother-Paul]

Amen!

Well, I don't think love alone will get anyone into heaven. I believe faith is also required.

Yes brother we need Faith but we are talking about... The Law or not the Law that is/was the question...

As we know some suggest we are free from the Law, Torah in full as we are now under Grace. But we are not free from all the old law and the prophets in full, everything in the old law that relates to Love, God's love for us, our Love for God, our Love for our neighbour as our self all still apply! That was the point I was trying to get over, sorry if it wasn't explained sufficiently.

As scripture says... On these two 'commands' hangs 'ALL' the 'Law and the Prophets'.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
(We are to Love God as He loves us - 10 Commandments 'Love God' who created all things and created us)
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

John 13:34-35 (NKJV)
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

 

[Brother-Paul]

Chopper said: ↑
Every man who was ever born will face a final judgment of their lifetime works.

A very good Biblical point @Chopper. This would make a great thread and I bet there would be some good discussions! I would love to hear what others say. For sure all will be judged. For me, God is always talking about separation, wheat from tares, good from the bad and Sheep from Goats to name a few. Though I feel that I could possibly be "raked over the coals", I personally think that, in the end, his judgement is primarily a separation process and, the key is whether Jesus is in you or not!

I would need to look back at my study notes but as I remember, it is true we will all be judged but, there are two types of judgement.

The sheep and the goats are the separation of believers (born-gain) and none believers.

Those who have not accepted Christ and are not born again are the goats, they will be judged for all they have done. though and said in lifer.

The sheep however will not be judged for these items, sins, as our sins were washed away to be remembered no more the moment we accepted Jesus. Born again believers will be judged for what we have done for the Lord not for our sins, we will be given a crown according to our works we have done for the Lord.

None believers will see the Great White Throne judgement. (Revelations again brothers) Sounds frightening, thank the Lord we will not see it. Here some will be crying Lord, Lord and he will reply get away from me I don't know you...

 

[B-A-C]

For sure, because it is a love that comes first from faith.
These three remain, faith, hope and love!
Without faith, there is no hope and with out hope born of faith there is not this type of love. If you have this love born originally from faith, then love is the greatest because it is the only one of the three that endures in heaven

I would think that faith and hope wouldn't be needed because our "hope" of salvation will be fulfilled at that point.
Also our "faith" in Jesus will no longer be faith when He is standing before us.

So yes that leaves love....

If @Brother-Paul is correct and love is part of the Torah (teachings) that remains.
Then is love required even in heaven?

Is love an action? Can I simply say "I love someone" and that's enough. That's all the love they will
ever need. Or do I need to demonstrate my love toward them?

Do I need to feed them if they are hungry, clothe them if they are naked, take care of them if they are sick,
visit them if they are in prison, ... or can I simply say "be warm and be fed". ( James 2:16; ) and that is enough?

Can I say I love my neighbor... can the words be enough?
Or do I need to show him/her love. If I murder them, is that love? If I lie to them is that love?
If I steal from them, is that love? If I have sex with his wife, is that showing him love?

If we only "say" love love love... is that really love. Or does love take action and effort on our part?

 

[B-A-C]

I would need to look back at my study notes but as I remember, it is true we will all be judged but, there are two types of judgement.

The sheep and the goats are the separation of believers (born-gain) and none believers.

Those who have not accepted Christ and are not born again are the goats, they will be judged for all they have done. though and said in lifer.

The sheep however will not be judged for these items, sins, as our sins were washed away to be remembered no more the moment we accepted Jesus. Born again believers will be judged for what we have done for the Lord not for our sins, we will be given a crown according to our works we have done for the Lord.

None believers will see the Great White Throne judgement. (Revelations again brothers) Sounds frightening, thank the Lord we will not see it. Here some will be crying Lord, Lord and he will reply get away from me I don't know you...

I have heard some churches teach this. It would be an interesting study.
But is the separation of the sheep and goats... the judgment itself?

What seems to separate the sheep and goats... is that they all professed to know the Lord.
But some acted on those beliefs (fed the hungry, clothed the poor, visited the sick, etc... )
and the others did not act upon those beliefs (you never visited me, you never fed me, you never clothed me).

 

[Brother-Paul]

I would think that faith and hope wouldn't be needed because our "hope" of salvation will be fulfilled at that point.
Also our "faith" in Jesus will no longer be faith when He is standing before us.

So yes that leaves love....

If @Brother-Paul is correct and love is part of the Torah (teachings) that remains.
Then is love required even in heaven?

God is Love, everything Jesus did and said was in God's Love administered by the Holy Spirit.

Is love an action? Can I simply say "I love someone" and that's enough. That's all the love they will
ever need. Or do I need to demonstrate my love toward them?

Do I need to feed them if they are hungry, clothe them if they are naked, take care of them if they are sick,
visit them if they are in prison, ... or can I simply say "be warm and be fed". ( James 2:16; ) and that is enough?

God knows the condition of our hearts, love is an action if we consider those less fortunate than us and act on them as Jesus said we should, food, water, clothing, shelter, etc. It is also a command by our Lord, so if an action it is an action that has been requested from us.

Can I say I love my neighbor... can the words be enough?
Or do I need to show him/her love. If I murder them, is that love? If I lie to them is that love?
If I steal from them, is that love? If I have sex with his wife, is that showing him love?

If we only "say" love love love... is that really love. Or does love take action and effort on our part?

This bring us back to the western worlds world for love, one word fits all.

God's love is a divine love, a caring love, a love that puts others before ourselves, and unfailing love, it is 'Agape' Love