OSAS - Cruise Control
- Thread starter B-A-C
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Greetings,
may I add that there is also believe in, believe on and believe mentioned in Scripture?
Grace and Peace, bless you ....><>
may I add that there is also believe in, believe on and believe mentioned in Scripture?
Grace and Peace, bless you ....><>
Chopper
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It is my friend. Faith with works is the determining factor.
RJ
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God's eyes yes! Our actions are as filthy rags to him!
Not by our actions!
The only actions that God recognizes is Christ actions through us....God is the Vine Dresser, Christ is the vine and we are merely the branch! He produces his fruit through us! Without his works through us our faith is dead! Take "our" actions out of the equation and insert "his actions".......it is ALL of him and none of us!
Brother-Paul
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The point brother was to look at to OSAS views and the OS NOT AS views in accordance with scripture.
If I come against confrontation as I did yesterday, which I think is sad when this happens amongst believers, I will always back off and come back another day, hence the reason for the delay.
Moving on, with an open mind, members can consider all the options, either view point, to see if scripture does draw us 100% towards OSAS or not.
Looking back at some of my posts I do appear to have stated some items as a view rather than this is what this says and this is what that says, which was my intention at the start. So apologies for that but please, let us look with an open mind to what I have just put above.
I am going to add three posts
1 - taking scripture you have quoted for OSAS no other option
2 - then look at scripture that may say, hang on a minute can OSAS be so set in stone.
3 - finally I will add a third post, not necessarily scripture based by quoted verse, but to try explain another view point based on a situation in life that we can consider based on what has been quoted in the first two posts.
My aim is to remain open minded with each.
Peace be with you brother, Jesus loves you I do too.
Brother-Paul
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@RJ
Dear brother, looking at the scripture verses you have so far quoted in favour of OSAS keeping an open mind...
Romans 6:4 (NKJV)
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
This text goes on to say...
Romans 6:11-14 (NKJV)
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
You also ‘reckon’ to be dead indeed to sin – was there any doubt here?
Therefore do not – do not doesn’t mean cannot?
John 10:25-30 (NKJV)
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and My Father are one."
Jesus was describing the gracious disposition of his sheep (true born again believers); they heard and believed his word, followed him as his faithful disciples that none of them should perish; for the Son and the Father were one.
Jesus was however talking of his disciples, his close followers, he was defending his sheep in conversation with the Jews, so the subject of falling away was not in question, he was defending those who had followed him for several years, seen the miracles and heard his teaching first hand.
1 John 5:13 (NKJV)
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
"I write this to you” John was writing to those who believe in the Son of God, thus identifying his audience. Only those who believe in the deity of Jesus Christ can absorb what John has written in this letter and apply it. John’s aim in his letter was that he wanted his readers to have no more doubts about their faith. Were they saved?
John’s letter also has a similar parallel...
The Gospel, John 20:31, was written to unbelievers, encouraged them to come to faith in the Son of God as the means to enjoying the divine life.
The letter, 1 John 5:13, was written to believers who had been unsettled in their faith by false teachers, encouraged them to continue in the faith and affirmed their possession of eternal life.
John wanted his readers to be reassured that they had eternal life. Not whether they had the promise of eternal life or whether they could lose it.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
There are relations between God and man which cannot be expressed in terms of the law, and it is with these relations that Paul is dealing in this Epistle.
But this doesn’t confirm whether they had the promise of eternal life or whether they could lose it.
So far I have only looked at the scripture you have quoted, on the basis of them in relation to OSAS, bearing in mind this is a discussion with an open mind. That said, so far it would seem that John 10:28 is a strong statement in favour of OSAS.
Next I will look at some verses in relation to OS/NOT/AS but I emphasise it too will be done with an open mind for discussion by members as felt necessary.
Dear brother, looking at the scripture verses you have so far quoted in favour of OSAS keeping an open mind...
Romans 6:4 (NKJV)
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
This text goes on to say...
Romans 6:11-14 (NKJV)
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
You also ‘reckon’ to be dead indeed to sin – was there any doubt here?
Therefore do not – do not doesn’t mean cannot?
John 10:25-30 (NKJV)
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and My Father are one."
Jesus was describing the gracious disposition of his sheep (true born again believers); they heard and believed his word, followed him as his faithful disciples that none of them should perish; for the Son and the Father were one.
Jesus was however talking of his disciples, his close followers, he was defending his sheep in conversation with the Jews, so the subject of falling away was not in question, he was defending those who had followed him for several years, seen the miracles and heard his teaching first hand.
1 John 5:13 (NKJV)
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
"I write this to you” John was writing to those who believe in the Son of God, thus identifying his audience. Only those who believe in the deity of Jesus Christ can absorb what John has written in this letter and apply it. John’s aim in his letter was that he wanted his readers to have no more doubts about their faith. Were they saved?
John’s letter also has a similar parallel...
The Gospel, John 20:31, was written to unbelievers, encouraged them to come to faith in the Son of God as the means to enjoying the divine life.
The letter, 1 John 5:13, was written to believers who had been unsettled in their faith by false teachers, encouraged them to continue in the faith and affirmed their possession of eternal life.
John wanted his readers to be reassured that they had eternal life. Not whether they had the promise of eternal life or whether they could lose it.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
There are relations between God and man which cannot be expressed in terms of the law, and it is with these relations that Paul is dealing in this Epistle.
But this doesn’t confirm whether they had the promise of eternal life or whether they could lose it.
So far I have only looked at the scripture you have quoted, on the basis of them in relation to OSAS, bearing in mind this is a discussion with an open mind. That said, so far it would seem that John 10:28 is a strong statement in favour of OSAS.
Next I will look at some verses in relation to OS/NOT/AS but I emphasise it too will be done with an open mind for discussion by members as felt necessary.
Brother-Paul
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Let us next look at scripture that may not agree with OSAS or leave a doorway open to question if OSAS is set in concrete.
John 15:1-11 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
We have a similar situation in Romans
Romans 11:13-21 (NKJV)
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Is Paul not speaking from a general stand point here, picturing Gentiles as a group turning away from God as the nation of Israel had.
But in both John 15 and Romans 11 we appear to have a warning that those in the vine can also be cut from it.
Jeremiah 17:13-14 (NKJV)
13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. "Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the LORD, The fountain of living waters."
14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; Save me, and I shall be saved, For You are my praise.
To forsake is it not to fall away.
John 5:22-29 (NKJV)
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Those who have done evil, saved or unsaved? To the ‘resurrection’ of the condemned. This does not discuss falling away but is clear... those who have done evil and also confirms resurrection of the condemned to judgement.
Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Those who will enter the kingdom of heaven are only those who do the will of my Father in heaven. To do God's will implies a relationship with God—the ability to communicate with him, know his will, and then be able to perform it. Such "fruit" reveals one who will enter the kingdom of heaven.
The question is were these people saved in the first place, the verse does not refer to falling away but is included as it has been mentioned in the thread.
Revelation 3:10-12 (NKJV)
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Each believer will receive a crown for what they have done for God based on the talent he gave us. A born again believer will not ‘steal’ from another believer so who will steal the crown we are entitled to?
Satan himself, he comes to seal that which God has given us, so could a believer lose their crown, this suggests they can, if they lose their crown can they lose their salvation is a question.
1 John 2:1-6 (NKJV)
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
These verses also mentioned previously do not appear to refer to falling away but a clear distinction of a saved or unsaved soul
John 16:1 (NKJV)
1 "These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble.
Jesus warned the disciples against the trials that awaited them. He did not want them to be caught off guard, to stumble, or to fall when trials came.
Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Many think they are saved but are not, here five were secure in their faith but five were not. So can only assume they were not saved in the first place, it is down to us all to make sure we know we are saved and don’t look back.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
For by Grace we have been saved, through faith...
we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works...
that we SHOULD walk in them.
Again this statement in the doctrine of faith leaves a small door open for doubt, that we ‘should’ walk in them.
As born again believers we look forward, focusing in Christ in all we do, never looking back. It wasn’t until statements flowed in the thread OSAS when we shared verses for discussion of what is set in stone and what leaves a small door open that I saw the word here Should!
John 15:1-11 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
We have a similar situation in Romans
Romans 11:13-21 (NKJV)
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Is Paul not speaking from a general stand point here, picturing Gentiles as a group turning away from God as the nation of Israel had.
But in both John 15 and Romans 11 we appear to have a warning that those in the vine can also be cut from it.
Jeremiah 17:13-14 (NKJV)
13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. "Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the LORD, The fountain of living waters."
14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; Save me, and I shall be saved, For You are my praise.
To forsake is it not to fall away.
John 5:22-29 (NKJV)
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Those who have done evil, saved or unsaved? To the ‘resurrection’ of the condemned. This does not discuss falling away but is clear... those who have done evil and also confirms resurrection of the condemned to judgement.
Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Those who will enter the kingdom of heaven are only those who do the will of my Father in heaven. To do God's will implies a relationship with God—the ability to communicate with him, know his will, and then be able to perform it. Such "fruit" reveals one who will enter the kingdom of heaven.
The question is were these people saved in the first place, the verse does not refer to falling away but is included as it has been mentioned in the thread.
Revelation 3:10-12 (NKJV)
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Each believer will receive a crown for what they have done for God based on the talent he gave us. A born again believer will not ‘steal’ from another believer so who will steal the crown we are entitled to?
Satan himself, he comes to seal that which God has given us, so could a believer lose their crown, this suggests they can, if they lose their crown can they lose their salvation is a question.
1 John 2:1-6 (NKJV)
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
These verses also mentioned previously do not appear to refer to falling away but a clear distinction of a saved or unsaved soul
John 16:1 (NKJV)
1 "These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble.
Jesus warned the disciples against the trials that awaited them. He did not want them to be caught off guard, to stumble, or to fall when trials came.
Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Many think they are saved but are not, here five were secure in their faith but five were not. So can only assume they were not saved in the first place, it is down to us all to make sure we know we are saved and don’t look back.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
For by Grace we have been saved, through faith...
we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works...
that we SHOULD walk in them.
Again this statement in the doctrine of faith leaves a small door open for doubt, that we ‘should’ walk in them.
As born again believers we look forward, focusing in Christ in all we do, never looking back. It wasn’t until statements flowed in the thread OSAS when we shared verses for discussion of what is set in stone and what leaves a small door open that I saw the word here Should!
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,000
Finally taking OSAS and considering items in the world that lay doubts on to whether OSAS can be considered 100% accurate.
For the mature Christian, growing in faith there should be no issues here, we keep our eyes on Jesus the author of our faith. There fore the ones that are maybe considered a concern are the vulnerable, the new believer or the person tested due to happenings in life, allow me to throw in two situations, again just for consideration based on what we are discussing.
1 - a new believer truly repents of their sins and accepts Jesus in their heart. Saying with their lips and 'truly believing in the their heart'
But the new believer it not ministered to, has very little connection with born again believers, they believe, they pray, they read scripture, but faith comes by hearing and they desperately need prayer. Now we know the devil prowls seeking to steal that which God has given them. After a period of time the person falls back into worldly ways and as we consider here loses their salvation. We can argue that it is not possible, we can argue God doesn't want any to be lost and perish, he maybe doesn't want any to be lost, but doesn't want doesn't mean will not be lost.
2 - a couple have been married for many years, they became born again Christians after they got married and grew in faith together in the Lord. But then one dies and the other is devastated. Slowly the person starts to back slide, then (assuming the man died it could be the other way) she meets another man and falls in love, they have sex outside marriage, he doesn't want to marry, so they live in sin. He has no faith and hers dwindles until she reads, studies and prays no more.
Both are very probable examples in this life, Jesus said we would have problems in this life, both have fallen back into worldly ways and sin. Both no longer have time for God or our Lord, they don't bear fruit, they are cut from the vine, they wither and perish.
Where is OSAS in these or other similar examples. The devil comes to steal that which God has given to us.
For the mature Christian, growing in faith there should be no issues here, we keep our eyes on Jesus the author of our faith. There fore the ones that are maybe considered a concern are the vulnerable, the new believer or the person tested due to happenings in life, allow me to throw in two situations, again just for consideration based on what we are discussing.
1 - a new believer truly repents of their sins and accepts Jesus in their heart. Saying with their lips and 'truly believing in the their heart'
But the new believer it not ministered to, has very little connection with born again believers, they believe, they pray, they read scripture, but faith comes by hearing and they desperately need prayer. Now we know the devil prowls seeking to steal that which God has given them. After a period of time the person falls back into worldly ways and as we consider here loses their salvation. We can argue that it is not possible, we can argue God doesn't want any to be lost and perish, he maybe doesn't want any to be lost, but doesn't want doesn't mean will not be lost.
2 - a couple have been married for many years, they became born again Christians after they got married and grew in faith together in the Lord. But then one dies and the other is devastated. Slowly the person starts to back slide, then (assuming the man died it could be the other way) she meets another man and falls in love, they have sex outside marriage, he doesn't want to marry, so they live in sin. He has no faith and hers dwindles until she reads, studies and prays no more.
Both are very probable examples in this life, Jesus said we would have problems in this life, both have fallen back into worldly ways and sin. Both no longer have time for God or our Lord, they don't bear fruit, they are cut from the vine, they wither and perish.
Where is OSAS in these or other similar examples. The devil comes to steal that which God has given to us.
Chopper
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The plan of Salvation....
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Chopper
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For those who are interested, I've started a new thread in "Bible Chat" called, The Three Stage Positions Of Every Believer. I hope that it will answer the questions about OSAS as well as those who can loose what they think is Salvation.
RJ
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Thanks brother Chopper, it is nice to come in agreement so often with another here at TJ. I respect someone with your knowledge and understanding of God and scripture and you are a welcomed kindred spirit; wish I could say the same about many others here.
amadeus2
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I may open another thread on the Name rather than go off on a tangent from this one. The topics are related to each other, but the mind can only handle so much at a time. At least that is so with my mind.
Chopper
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Ahh, age and experience in God's Word and knowledge of Christ Jesus is a bond that cannot be separated. This is where it's at my Brother....
Ephesians 1:17 "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"
Chopper
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I agree with you my friend. That would certainly be a thought provoking thread, one that I would be delighted in reading what you have to say. Go for it!!
Chopper
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It's funny, being 75 years old with lots of physical trials, I tend to complain sometimes about all the pain. Then I look at a young man in his twenties, fresh out of a Bible College, and I think, what have I got to complain about, I've got one foot on a banana peal and the other in the grave. Hey, I'll be home soon, he'll have to wait a long time, if the Lord continues to tarry. :laugh:
RJ
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Oh that one foot in the grave and one on a banana peel even out-dates you!
You may live to a 100, what are you going to do between now and then???:laugh::laugh:
B-A-C
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The other side of the coin.... for a while. So we have talked quite a bit about verses that seemingly support
OSAS. But what about those that seemingly are against OSAS?
Heb 6:1; Therefore leaving the [a]elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2; of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3; And this we will do, if God permits.
Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Heb 6:7; For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
Heb 6:8; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Can someone who has never been saved be "enlightened" by God?
Can an unsaved person claim to have "tasted the heavenly gift"?
Can an unsaved person be a "partaker" of the Holy Spirit?
Can a person who is already "fallen away" (never been saved) fall away even more? Or can only someone who has
salvation, truly... "fall away"?
====================================================================================================
Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:28; Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Can a person who has never been saved be "sanctified" by "the blood of the covenant"?
====================================================================================================
1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Tim 4:2; by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
Again... can you fall away from something you never had in the first place? Aren't you already fallen away if you are an unbeliever?
======================================================================================================
Luke 8:11; “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12; Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13; Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15; But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
In verse 12, we have those "who will not believe" (have never been saved).
In verse 13, we have those "who believe for a while". It doesn't say they never believed, it
says they believed for a while.
In verse 14, we have those who are so busy they just ignore the word,
In verse 15, finally we have those who the word takes good seed in.
Why does Jesus make a distinction between those who "never believe" and those "who believe for a while"?
=====================================================================================================
There are several more... but this is a fair start.
OSAS. But what about those that seemingly are against OSAS?
Heb 6:1; Therefore leaving the [a]elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2; of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3; And this we will do, if God permits.
Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Heb 6:7; For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
Heb 6:8; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Can someone who has never been saved be "enlightened" by God?
Can an unsaved person claim to have "tasted the heavenly gift"?
Can an unsaved person be a "partaker" of the Holy Spirit?
Can a person who is already "fallen away" (never been saved) fall away even more? Or can only someone who has
salvation, truly... "fall away"?
====================================================================================================
Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:28; Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Can a person who has never been saved be "sanctified" by "the blood of the covenant"?
====================================================================================================
1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Tim 4:2; by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
Again... can you fall away from something you never had in the first place? Aren't you already fallen away if you are an unbeliever?
======================================================================================================
Luke 8:11; “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12; Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13; Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15; But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
In verse 12, we have those "who will not believe" (have never been saved).
In verse 13, we have those "who believe for a while". It doesn't say they never believed, it
says they believed for a while.
In verse 14, we have those who are so busy they just ignore the word,
In verse 15, finally we have those who the word takes good seed in.
Why does Jesus make a distinction between those who "never believe" and those "who believe for a while"?
=====================================================================================================
There are several more... but this is a fair start.
