JohnP
Active
It's a Catholic thing - Venial sin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - some sort of a "lesser" sin.
Why do we continually struggle with the same sin (even though desperately wanting change)?
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Bendito
Loyal
Ah....like purgatory...a mythical temporary hell. Yes many Christians tend to categorize sin, making one worse than another...
KingJ
Loyal
Purgatory is mentioned in the Maccabees. Categorizing sin is mentioned throughout scripture. A better Catholic comparison would be the trinity.
Sue J Love
Loyal
Oftentimes people quote Romans 7 as an excuse to continue in willful sin against God, but they don't read it in the context of Romans 6 and Romans 8. In Romans 6 we read that we died to sin (those of us who have been born of the Spirit of God), so how can we live in it any longer? We died with Christ to sin, and we were resurrected with Christ to newness of life, "created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph. 4:24). "Our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin - because anyone who has died has been freed from sin" (Ro. 6:6-7). It is a lie of Satan to convince us otherwise. We are to count ourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. I think sometimes we intellectually are convinced of this, but the truth of it hasn't really reached our hearts. Satan has convinced us that he still has power over us.
I was severely abused as a child by my father. I used to resist my father's attacks by putting my arms crisscrossed in front of my face, but the attacks still got through. I felt helpless to resist him. And, that is the way many people react to Satan's evil attacks against us, too. They are convinced that they are helpless to resist Satan, to flee temptation, and to draw near to God, but that is a BIG FAT LIE! Jesus set us free! So, we are free! We don't have to give in to Satan any longer. We do have the power to resist him and to flee temptation if truly we are born of the Spirit of God. We just have to live like we believe that, and we have to put on the armor of God daily with which to fight off Satan's evil attacks against us. We have to believe in the power of God and put it into practice in our daily lives. If we are beat down, it is Satan doing this to us, and it is because we resist him much like I resisted my father's attacks, and that doesn't do it. We begin with a defeated frame of mind, and so we get defeated. I know what I am talking about here from personal experience.
Continuing with Romans 6, it says that we are to not let sin reign in our bodies so that we obey its evil desires. Obviously this is possible, but only in the strength and power of the Spirit of God within us as we cooperate fully with his work of grace in our lives. We are to not offer the parts of our bodies to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather to God, and as those who have been brought from death to life. We are to now offer ourselves to God as instruments of righteousness. "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." Is God trying to trick us? No! He is not going to ask us to do something that is not possible. It is possible! I know!! And, I went through my set of struggles, too, I guarantee you.
So, as I was praying for deliverance, I asked God if there was anyone I had not forgiven. The name he gave me was "Jesus." I knew right away what he meant, and I wept. I had not forgiven Jesus for what I went through with my father, but I didn't know that was true until the Lord pointed that out to me. Because I had not forgiven him, although he had done no wrong, and because I was convinced that Satan still had power over me, over which God had no control, because of the abuses of my dad, and because deep down I truly did not trust in the sovereignty of God over my life, I continued to resist Satan like I resisted my dad. Now that I forgave Jesus, and was convinced that Jesus truly had set me free, I submitted to God's sovereignty over my life, and I was delivered.
Ok, now moving to Romans 7, Paul explains to the believers the differences between being under law (of sin and death) and being under grace. "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code" (Ro. 7:5-6).
Then, Paul explained to the believers what it means to be under the law. The law made Paul aware of sin. Then, he went on to explain how that, when the law made him conscious that he was a sinner, he was now aware of sin. I think that he may have explained here what happens when a child reaches that age of accountability to where he understands now, not just that his actions are pleasing or displeasing to his parents, but that he is a sinner. Now, conscious of sin, he realized that sin deceived him, and through the commandment put him to death. Then he said, “But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful” (Ro. 7:13).
Then, he went on to explain what it is like when we are sold as slaves to sin, which is where he had been, but not where he was then. This is where he talks about having the desire to do good, but he can’t carry it out. But, then he asks the question about who shall deliver him, and the answer is Jesus Christ. Jesus had already delivered him. He was not in that state of mind he just described, for if he was, he would be a hypocrite writing what he wrote in Romans 6 and Romans 8, for it goes on and says that Jesus Christ set us free of the law of sin and death. “For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And, so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit…” for if we live according to the sinful nature, we will die; but if by the Spirit we are putting to death the misdeeds of the body, we will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God (See: Ro. 8:1-14).
So, if Paul were truly living like he described in Romans 7, he could not have written what he wrote in Romans 6 and 8 in good conscience. Romans 7 was illustrative of the sinful nature, which Jesus died to set us free from its power and control over our lives. We will still sin from time to time, but we should no longer be slaves to sin. So, we have to stop believing Satan’s lies that says we are still in slavery to sin and we can’t find freedom. JESUS SET US FREE! We just have to live like we believe that, and we have to strongly resist Satan, flee temptation and draw near to God! We have to stop believing Satan’s lies, and live in the truth of God’s word. We are overcomers! We are conquerors! We can be free! But, we have to do more than just want this freedom. We have to do whatever it takes to be free. Jesus already bought our freedom. We just have to own it and seize it and not let Satan convince us anymore that we are still living in Romans 7:14-24, but believe God that we are now living in Romans 6 and 8.
And, again, this means we have to die to sin and self, and we have to put off the misdeeds of our flesh and put on Christ. We have to cut out of our lives those things which lead us into sin, which can be the internet, TV, movies, games, etc. We have to get radical in our approach to sin and do what the Bible tells us to do if we want to be truly free from any remaining control (stronghold) it may have on our lives because we are believing Satan’s lies instead of living and walking in God’s truths. We can’t be free from sexual sin if we are playing with sin, and if we are not willing to cut out of our lives the very things which are leading us into sin.
Amen Sister!!!!!
Awesome testimony and in its own right you have brought to light the Word of God to one in need!
With the Love of Christ Jesus dear sister I pray for continued blessings to you.
YBIC
Nick
<><
@Sue J Love
Awesome testimony and in its own right you have brought to light the Word of God to one in need!
With the Love of Christ Jesus dear sister I pray for continued blessings to you.
YBIC
Nick
<><
@Sue J Love
@Sue J Love That was a thorough response. I hope people struggling with any type of addictions.
But if we read Romans 7 Paul talks about things which finds himself experiencing and living through. Is it not? He continued to see these very things where one struggles with Sin inorder to do what is right. Is that a time past he is talking about? why does he end the chapter saying
Romans 7: 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
@KingJ
What is this? Are the lesser sins than others? SIN is just that. SIN. Is it not? Different sins i believe have different consequences in the shorter or long term. But all SIN leads to death. that is why SIN is SIN or am i wrong here. Romans 6:23
But if we read Romans 7 Paul talks about things which finds himself experiencing and living through. Is it not? He continued to see these very things where one struggles with Sin inorder to do what is right. Is that a time past he is talking about? why does he end the chapter saying
Romans 7: 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
@KingJ
What is this? Are the lesser sins than others? SIN is just that. SIN. Is it not? Different sins i believe have different consequences in the shorter or long term. But all SIN leads to death. that is why SIN is SIN or am i wrong here. Romans 6:23
Sue J Love
Loyal
All glory to God! Thank you for these heartfelt and encouraging words.
Bendito
Loyal
Let's not complicate this here....Romans 7 is simply showing the difference between Torah and our new state....The Torah was to show us our need for a savior. Our new state, that is having our savior living in us, sets us free from the law of sin and death, and makes us free to serve God in Love.
Romans 7: 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Torah
25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Born again!! The whole confusion here is coming from the untranslated word CHRIST This not Jesus last name! It's a Greek word that means 'the anointed one and His anointing.....Vs 25 Thanks be to God,who delivers me through Jesus the anointed one and His anointing, Our Lord.
So in my mind am slave to Gods law...What is Gods law? LOVE!!! Gods law is LOVE.....
But in my sinful nature (Past tense, we no longer have a sinful nature, but the nature of God) I was a slave to the law of sin...
Now before you argue with what I say here, consider the context...Who is Paul talking to? The unsaved Jews...He is comparing the state that they are in to the state he is now in...telling them they can also be free of the law of sin....
@Bendito Even at His very best state Paul found the flesh rebelling against the the Will of God. Read those chapters quote by @Sue J Love. Only a regenerate person can truly have a mindset that genuinely wages war against the flesh. What do you care fighting against Sin if you don't care much about it?
Read again slowly.
This was not just some past time. He tells of real struggles true Christians face. To suggest he was addicted to beer or sexual sin obviously is ridiculous.... But what about the constant war waged by the flesh to weak and fully mature Christians alike?
Sue J Love
Loyal
In Gal. 2:20 it says: "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
This is the same "I" Paul speaks of in Rom. 7. We are not literally hung on a cross to die with Christ in our bodies, or we would all be dead. He is speaking of the sin nature, the flesh, which was put to death with Christ, so that "I" no longer live, but Christ lives in me, and I now live by faith.
I believe that we are still capable of sin, though, for scripture indicates that is so (1 Jn. 2, for one). And, we are still tempted to sin, so daily we must resist Satan, flee temptation, draw near to God, and put on the full armor of God with which to fight off Satan's evil attacks against us.
Paul's comments in chapter 7, thus, must be read in the context of chapters 6-8, and in the context of chapter 7 itself. In chapter 7, Paul is explaining how the law made him conscious of sin, and how that brought spiritual death. When he became conscious of sin, through the law, sin sprang to life and he died (spiritually). Sin deceived him and produced in him every covetous desire. This was him outside of faith in Jesus Christ. Then, he went on to contrast that sinful nature (flesh) with God's law, which is spiritual. Paul was not himself, at the time he wrote this, unspiritual, and sold as a slave to sin. He was describing the flesh nature, from which Jesus had already delivered him. When he wrote, "Who will rescue me from this body of death?" he had already been delivered. He didn't write Romans 6, and then revert back to the flesh, and then write Romans 8. Romans 7 is all about his life prior to being delivered by Christ, and it is about explaining how the flesh (sin) nature contrasts with the spiritual (God's law), and then he thanked God for the deliverance that was already his in Christ Jesus. Yet, he wrote it in a literary style in which he used first person to describe his sin nature in the context of what he was saying prior to that in chapter 7, in which he described his spiritual condition outside of Christ. Himself, in his flesh nature is a slave to the law of sin, but God delivered him from that. Then, read Romans 8:1-14.
So many people who are struggling with sin, especially sin addictions, like to pull Romans 7 out of context to excuse away their sin, but they forget that chapter 7 was sandwiched in between chapters 6 & 8. We have to read them together. In chapter 6 it says that when you were slaves to sin that you were free from the control of righteousness. He said that those things we are now ashamed of result in death. When we are set free from sin, we now become slaves to God, and the benefit we reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. If Paul was still sold as a slave to sin, he would not have been a slave to God, and thus he would have been a hypocrite for writing what he wrote in chapters 6-8.
Bendito
Loyal
He was saying that under the law we were slaves to sin but thanks to Jesus we are now slaves to Love.....Read it all....Then ask the Holy spirit to open it up for you.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Sue J Love
Loyal
Paul, before believing in Jesus Christ, was a Pharisee of Pharisees. He was a strong proponent of keeping the law, and he would have done everything he knew how to do, within his own flesh, to try to keep the law to perfection, but he realized he couldn't do that, which is why we have Romans 8:3-4: "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit."
We must note here, that we are not bound to sinless perfection, for if we could be completely sinless (not ever sinning), Christ would not have had to die for our sin. But, we couldn't, and so he did die. But notice also, with me, that, because of his death, that the righteous requirements of the law are met, not in us who live like hell and say we "believe," and not in us who think we have to be absolutely sinless (living in sinless perfection), but in us who conduct our lives no longer according to the sinful flesh, but according to the Spirit. Paul's life, in Christ, exemplified a man who was sold out to God and who walked according to the Spirit of God. Was he ever tempted to sin? I am sure he was. Did his flesh ever pull at him? I am sure it did. But he was not sold as a slave to sin, but as a slave to God.
@Bendito
The book of Romans is actually [Paul letter to the church in Rome.] Read Romans chapter 1. You are NOT correct when you say Paul wrote this to unsaved Jews. Hence your response / understanding to chapter 7 seeing your perceived audience [unsaved Jews]. He greets believers in the church at Rome by name. Read Romans 16. Read the history of the book and how that church might have started. So in as much as we might want to pray to the Holy Spirit, we must read and do research.
@Sue J Love. My original question is Why do we continually struggle with the same sin (even though desperately wanting change).
You are correct in your explanations and i agree with you but you not be addressing what i had asked. You said people struggle because either they are toying with Sin or they don't know Christ. Which is the way one will approach and try to help someone with an addiction in trying to help them out. Which i am not agreeing with because i am talking about Christians who have genuine intentions to change. So to say Romans 7 is used by people to try and justify Sin that they continue to enjoy to me just sounds not correct based on your 2 reasons that you gave. Hence my statement that even Paul found that at ones best, the flesh does not agree with God and never will. Hence our need for Christ to rescue us continually. Why is that as long as we are on this earth we are not going to be totally Sinless? Because we have Flesh to deal with.
I asked this because there is just too many Christians who need to change and need our help. Will God not use use if we know better how to deal with certain Sin addictions and even better equipped because of our own past experiences. So i am just seeking better understanding without generalising the situation and putting everyone is the same bracket.
The book of Romans is actually [Paul letter to the church in Rome.] Read Romans chapter 1. You are NOT correct when you say Paul wrote this to unsaved Jews. Hence your response / understanding to chapter 7 seeing your perceived audience [unsaved Jews]. He greets believers in the church at Rome by name. Read Romans 16. Read the history of the book and how that church might have started. So in as much as we might want to pray to the Holy Spirit, we must read and do research.
@Sue J Love. My original question is Why do we continually struggle with the same sin (even though desperately wanting change).
You are correct in your explanations and i agree with you but you not be addressing what i had asked. You said people struggle because either they are toying with Sin or they don't know Christ. Which is the way one will approach and try to help someone with an addiction in trying to help them out. Which i am not agreeing with because i am talking about Christians who have genuine intentions to change. So to say Romans 7 is used by people to try and justify Sin that they continue to enjoy to me just sounds not correct based on your 2 reasons that you gave. Hence my statement that even Paul found that at ones best, the flesh does not agree with God and never will. Hence our need for Christ to rescue us continually. Why is that as long as we are on this earth we are not going to be totally Sinless? Because we have Flesh to deal with.
I asked this because there is just too many Christians who need to change and need our help. Will God not use use if we know better how to deal with certain Sin addictions and even better equipped because of our own past experiences. So i am just seeking better understanding without generalising the situation and putting everyone is the same bracket.
Bendito
Loyal
Ok So clarify your answer.
KingJ
Loyal
Wages of sin is death. Death has never been hell. It has always been separation. If you want to get to hell, reject Jesus. We reject Jesus by loving what is evil. A mortal sinner is sold out to loving what is evil. There are many examples in scripture where Gods wrath and warnings only came when people's sin was reaching full measure. Ie becoming intolerable. Ie mortal sins.
Think about Matt 5:32. Divorce only if there is actual adultery...Not any lessor sin. So much like the trinity, scripture is full of examples pointing to mortal and venial sins.
We are after Gods heart when we hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9. Fullstop.
Alice K.
Member
I have no idea if this will be of help, but it helped me so I add this in hopes that it may, God bless you!!!
Thanks @Alice K. Does make some sense. Though i feel this guy is mainly addressing another type of "misconception" Where people think Sin does not exist because We are forgiven and live in Grace.
Curtis
Loyal
Growing in the Lord and in the power of his might takes time (years) No one is born a full grown man when coming to Jesus as their savior. All Christians can sin at the drop of a hat!!! Just walk in the flesh and see how that all works out. Stop walking in faith at any time and you have sinned big time, for what ever is not of faith is sin!!! Spiritual growth , or becoming sanctified is a process in which all must go through before becoming a "mature" man in Christ. If we never sin then it would have been useless to put in the scripture. If we confess our sins, God is faithful, and just to forgives us our sins, and then cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. We are told to cast away the sin that so easily trips us up.....
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. (NLT)
Sin is always done in "darkness" where no one will discover what we have done. Knowing we are all surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses will for sure make you think twice to do what you know is wrong.
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. (NLT)
Sin is always done in "darkness" where no one will discover what we have done. Knowing we are all surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses will for sure make you think twice to do what you know is wrong.
Alice K.
Member
Yeah me too. I'm sorry if I ever seem to write to many responses on here. I'm just a worrier. How you mention unprogramming, I would agree something had taught us that way, although being made into the image of God we sin, and I definitely agree it can be an evil tactic of the devil. What helps me is the verse in the Bible I believe by Paul about us being dead to sin. Just when I think that and confidently say that, since Jesus gave us His Hope, it makes me more confident, God helping me to focus on Him instead of almost (or sometimes sinning again) and it has helped me personally a lot, knowing that God Loves me and wants to help me through everything. I am trying to understand with you, because it definitely confuses me aswell. So I'm spit balling and adding other people's thoughts and whatever comes to mind, it's what I try to do to understand.
Alice K.
Member
Yeah I see what you'really saying. I don't really know too much about it I think he still recognizes that sin exists and happens to us. But that he might be trying to give us more hope from overcoming with God, I don't know though. I am not honestly the best at wrapping my head around things.