‘RIP A PAGE OUT OF YOUR BIBLE’

[Br. Bear]

Greetings @Marek,

may I refer to my previous post to you?

Greetings @Marek




please forgive my abrupt replies to you.

Could you please explain what law is to be kept?

Some refer to the law as the Torah but are these the same and if not, what is the difference ?
There are definitely things contained in what most understand as the law that we should acknowledge. But then there are other things like circumcision and at least one sacrifice that it appears that we are not to keep, that is if sacrifice is/was of the law.
Bestiality and homosexuality and sorcery are not 'in' what is called the 10 Commandments but most Christians would agree that they are iniquity and the abstinence from such iniquity is commanded the the LORD.

Bless you ....><>

Do you mind replying to the questions asked?

Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings @B-A-C ,

Forgive me please if it appears that I am being persistent?

You said,

Grace... what is grace? maybe that's a better question.

and I am quite sure that was the question I asked?

B-A-C, you seem to try to blend Grace and keeping the commandments. Do you understand Grace? Could you please explain what Grace is so that readers can understand what you have written?

Bless you ....><>

Bless you ....><>

 

[Christ4Ever]

I suspect you are talking about

John 15:12; we can go that way if you want.

No I was actually quoting your use of John 15:10 Which reads: "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

So my question remains. What is the difference between His Father's Commandments and His Commandments?
Once you answer that one we can continue on if you'd like.

 

[B-A-C]

So my question remains. What is the difference between His Father's Commandments and His Commandments?

For practical purposes there is no difference. (Jesus did expound on them in the new testament).

 

[Christ4Ever]

For practical purposes there is no difference. (Jesus did expound on them in the new testament).

Practical are we not?

Of course he expounded upon them. He was talking to the Nation that was given the Law. Yet, clearly you must agree that in this verse that you used to reflect the need to "abide in His Love" our Lord did make a difference to His Commandments and His Father's Commandments.

It was not only in Obedience, but to the very Spirit of the Law that we are talking about here which is Righteousness.

I believe we're pretty much in agreement in this. At least up to this point? Yes, maybe, No?

P.S. I had not intended to get involved in this, but as in all things. His Will not my own.

 

[B-A-C]

It was not only in Obedience, but to the very Spirit of the Law that we are talking about here which is Righteousness.

I believe we're pretty much in agreement in this. At least up to this point? Yes, maybe, No?

P.S. I had not intended to get involved in this, but as in all things. His Will not my own

I would say I agree with this.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Thank-you for your patience Dear Brother @B-A-C

Brother I have no issue with the Law. Surprise you? How else would I know that I was a sinner in the eyes of God? Paul says it better than I could when he says "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. Romans 7:12-13

Because according to the Law I'm a dead man! The issue really is not the Law, for it is Holy, Righteous, and Good. Rather, the consequences of not following the Law or in other words, breaking it (Sin). One would say being Obedient or Disobedient to God!

Am I wrong in believing that failing to follow the Law makes us disobedient and we thus lose our Salvation if we ever had it? Yes, Maybe, No

I await your answer so we can continue.

There is much I have written, but have not included in this post; for it's as the Spirit moves me to use or not to!! He knows me better than I know myself, for He has kept it simple so as to not overly confuse myself!

 

[B-A-C]

Because according to the Law I'm a dead man! The issue really is not the Law, for it is Holy, Righteous, and Good. Rather, the consequences of not following the Law or in other words, breaking it (Sin). One would say being Obedient or Disobedient to God!

Am I wrong in believing that failing to follow the Law makes us disobedient and we thus lose our Salvation if we ever had it? Yes, Maybe, No

I await your answer so we can continue.

Rom 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 6:23; For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"If we ever had it". - For this discussion I would prefer to leave OSAS out of it for the time being. Too easy to get side tracked.
For this discussion it doesn't matter if I am backslid or never was saved. The bottom line is nether is saved.

Am I wrong in believing that failing to follow the Law makes us disobedient and we thus lose our Salvation if we ever had it?

I know the "D" word is bad word in Christianity these days. (denominations) and I have gone to churches of several different denominations.
The denominations I have attended most of my life do not believe in unconditional grace. I have to qualify that statement however.

I would divide all people into three groups.
The unsaved, the newly saved, and those who have been saved for an extended period of time.

For the unsaved, there is unconditional grace at the moment of salvation. No sins are too bad to keep you from getting saved.
and nothing you do can make you saved other than believing in Jesus. Obedience to the commandments does not save you.

Then there are the newly saved, infants in Christ so to speak. Still only able to drink milk and not ready for meat yet.
They don't know all the rules yet, they haven't been tested yet, (God knows when they are ready) some are not producing fruit yet.
But they are learning, and they are seeking. God gives them extra grace, because they tend to make more mistakes.

Then there are those who have been saved for years (decades even). This is a different length of time for every person.
But I don't think it is those who have only been saved days, weeks or months. There is still grace for them, but it isn't always unconditional.
By now these people know the rules, they know what God expects. They don't really have any excuses.

We all make mistakes and sin sometimes, I know I do at least. But there is a difference between making the occasional mistake, and deliberately
choosing to sin or even "live" in a sinful lifestyle. There is a difference between "practicing righteousness" and "practicing lawlessness".
John 3:21; Rom 1:32; Rom 7:19; Rom 13:4; 2 Cor 12:21; Gal 5:21; Php 4:9; 2 Pet 1:10; 1 Jn 2:29; 1 Jn 3:4; Matt 7:23; etc...

I used to play a lot of basketball, I used to practice quite a bit, but that doesn't mean I never missed a shot or made a mistake.
There is grace for this. If I give up and start playing for the other team, - not so much.
I am reminded of some funny "blooper" sports videos where people accidentally scored a basket or touchdown for the other team.
It happens on accident sometimes. Even in professional sports errors made, shots are missed, balls are dropped or fumbled.
But these aren't the normal things that happen every play. No one practices "missing shots". We can do that quite easily without practice.

I believe there are those who "willfully" go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of Christ.
I believe there are those who turn the grace of Christ into a license to sin.

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

I believe there are "Christians" who are deliberately choosing to live the lifestyles above. Were they never saved in the first place?
Were they saved and then backslid? I don't know, it doesn't matter that much to me. The bottom line is, they aren't saved now.

When did this happen? Some people don't give up until years after they have been saved (or at least thought they were saved ) some people don't quit "overcoming" or quit "standing firm" until the trials and testing happens. The trauma of a death, or a divorce, or something else really bad is too much for them. They put their trust in other people, in themselves, and not in God. They didn't start out that way, but after a period of time, obedience to God just doesn't matter anymore.

 

[B-A-C]

The good news is, I believe it's never too late to repent and come back. If you believe they were never saved, fine. It's not too late for them to get saved.

 

[Marek]

Greetings @Marek,

may I refer to my previous post to you?



Do you mind replying to the questions asked?

Bless you ....><>

Hey brother, yes, the law is Torah and yes, we are to keep (do) the commandments of Yah.
It's all in first five books of the OT. Yahusha said plainly "Think not that I am come to destroy the law(Torah), or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." - Matt 5:17, (This doesn't mean that He has freed us from keeping the law so we can now be lawless and do as the heathens do.) Then He says: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Now what the scribes and Pharisees did? They replaced the commandments of the Most High with their man-made traditions. Notice the similiarities between the Pharisees and the preachers, pastors of today! The christianity has changed the Sabbath-day from Saturday to Sunday, set up graven images in their churches. - "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" -Exodus 20:4
The christianity teaches lawlessness, Mashiach taught the Torah (law-keeping), Churches are not "Holy temples", only our own bodies are! - "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Mashiach? shall I then take the members of Mashiach, and make them the members of an harlot (church)? God forbid." In Ezekiel 22:26 we can see accurate description of religion and churches - "Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them." Yah called us out of the religion and church - "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." - Revelation 18:4. All of us should take heed of His advice!

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? - Matt 7:22
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity(lawlessness)".
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" - 2 Timothy 4:3.
Shalom!

 

[Marek]

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:4 What is the truth?
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law (Torah) is the truth." - Psalm 119:142

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. - 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
Unrighteousness is disobedience, not keeping the law.
"Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye."
"Bind them upon thy fingers (do/keep them), write them upon the table of thine heart (love/meditate on them)." - Proverbs 7:2

 

[Christ4Ever]

By now these people know the rules, they know what God expects. They don't really have any excuses.

I believe there are those who "willfully" go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of Christ.

I believe there are those who turn the grace of Christ into a license to sin.

I believe there are "Christians" who are deliberately choosing to live the lifestyles above. Were they never saved in the first place?

Were they saved and then backslid? I don't know, it doesn't matter that much to me. The bottom line is, they aren't saved now.

The good news is, I believe it's never too late to repent and come back. If you believe they were never saved, fine. It's not too late for them to get saved.

Question: So, with all that you have said am I right in your answer to my question (below) is "Yes"?

Am I wrong in believing that failing to follow the Law makes us disobedient and we thus lose our Salvation if we ever had it? Yes, Maybe, No

_____________________________________________________________________

So, I'm assuming that the use of the below verses by you signifies that the Law is the standard by which judgment is based off of? No need to answer dear brother. Previous postings of yours confirm this. By the way, I also wholeheartedly agree with this if that was you intent.

Rom 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 6:23; For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

_____________________________________________________________________

Oh, by the way. I wasn't even looking at OSAS. Just the Law.

 

[Marek]

Question: So, with all that you have said am I right in your answer to my question (below) is "Yes"?



_____________________________________________________________________

So, I'm assuming that the use of the below verses by you signifies that the Law is the standard by which judgment is based off of? No need to answer dear brother. Previous postings of yours confirm this. By the way, I also wholeheartedly agree with this if that was you intent.


_____________________________________________________________________

Oh, by the way. I wasn't even looking at OSAS. Just the Law.

Hey brother, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" - Hebrews 10:26
We know now that the truth is Torah and so we should obey the word Yah, not profane it, walking in our own ways. OSAS is unbiblical and a deception, the salvation is conditional.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hey brother, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" - Hebrews 10:26
We know now that the truth is Torah and so we should obey the word Yah, not profane it, walking in our own ways. OSAS is unbiblical and a deception, the salvation is conditional.

The subject of OSAS was not brought up by me and nowhere in what I have written here on this thread has it stated this as being my position. Please take care not to misread what is written and like Scripture kept in context of what is posted.

However, I do thank-you Brother for sharing your thoughts on the question I posted that was directed to our Brother in Christ Jesus BAC. This is not meant as a "brush off" dear brother. I'm just not the multi-tasker that others are that allow them to carry "many" conversations on the same subject within the same thread. Especially as currently I am a bit under the weather so to speak.

Blessings.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Were all sacrifices ended at the Cross? If so, what value is there in us being living sacrifices?

Yes! All Sacrifice was ended at the Cross.

But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made His footstool.
For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that He had said before,
Hebrews 10:12-15

Praise the Lord...the atoning work was done once and for ever.
Jesus put an end to sacrifice by His complete work at the Cross.

 

[B-A-C]

Were all sacrifices ended at the cross? To me this is sort of a trick question. No more sacrifice for sin is required.
Jesus was the ultimate and final sacrifice. He was the Lamb of God. But does that mean "all" sacrifices?
Consider the following (@Br Bear alluded to one of these verses I think).

Rom 12:1; Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Eph 5:2; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
Php 4:18; But I have received everything in full and have an abundance; I am amply supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God.
Heb 13:15; Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.
Heb 13:16; And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
1 Pet 2:5; you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus
Christ.

So even though these aren't sacrifices for sin, they are sacrifices of obedience. If we take this a little further.....

Rom 6:6; knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Gal 2:20; "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Gal 5:24; Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
1 Cor 15:31; I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Luke 9:23; And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

This whole concept of dying to old self, old desires of the flesh, old man, old self will, and being born again is related to sacrifice.
Not just Jesus's sacrifice, but our daily death to self. Putting off the "old sinful man" and putting on Christ.
(I hate to bring up OSAS again, but the point here is, dying to the old self isn't a "one-time" thing. You have to do this every day.
(some days I do it better than other days, trust me, I am not perfect).
So in a way, we are "crucifiying" ourselves daily. Dying daily. Sacrificing ourselves daily.

Before I was saved, and even for a while after I first got saved, I wanted to do what I wanted to do.
I wanted to keep on getting drunk and going out with the guys, neglecting my kids and my wife.
I wanted to keep on watching sinful, fleshly things on the internet. I didn't want to do what God wanted me to do.
Some of these old desires started to fall off, it took a while for some of those things, but I haven't done those things in many years now.
In fact I don't even desire to do them. I'm not saying I never sin, but I am saying there were some sacrifices made in my life.
Even now, I sometimes have to sacrifice what I want to do, for what God wants me to do. Sometimes loving people isn't always easy.
But that's part of the daily sacrifice and being crucified with Christ.

So have all sacrifices ended at the cross? Well Jesus certainly doesn't have to die again for our sins.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

We know now that the truth is Torah

you might think this but that doesn't mean that a) it is correct and b) anyone else but you and those preaching Torah might think.

I understand that you are caught up in the error of Judaising the Gospel, preaching the law. You might deny this but reading your posts doesn't leave many options.
It appears that the law and commandments are more convincing than Jesus Christ to some people, which is not a new thing. Those who opposed and plotted against the Christ thought that way too but those who call themselves Christian and preach the law would not likely want to either admit it or accept that they preach error.

Truth is not the Torah (first five books of the bible )

Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

It isn't circumcision (the ceremonial law) that saves you.

could you please explain how you think circumcision is ceremonial law?

Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

What is the difference between the ceremonial law, the moral law, and the judicial law in the Old Testament?

This article explains it fairly well. But the law was the old covenant.
Circumcision wasn't the covenant, it was simply a "symbol" or "sign" of the covenant. ( Gen 17:11; )
Much like the rainbow isn't a covenant, it is a sign of a covenant. (No more earth wide floods)
Ceremonial law is those things which are a sign or symbol of something.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

In a way, you could take this as a "sign" that we know Jesus. The commandments aren't the covenant, but by keeping them
it's a sign that we are under the new covenant.

strange, I always thought that Jesus said , By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples, if ye have love one to another. (John 13:35).
Yes, it was a NEW commandment.
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. John 13:34

Somehow I figured that it was as Jesus said , not because we kept commandments, that is , what do men see? Disciples loving one another or disciples keeping the commandments.

I know you can quote lots of Scripture about keeping the commandments and about the Law but the opponent's of Christ could do that too.

Perhaps someone could actually list out the commandments that we have to keep in order to be saved? That might help me understand where you are coming from?

Bless you ....><>