1. Matt 8:29; And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
Mark 5:7; and shouting with a loud voice, he *said, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!"
Luke 8:28; Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me."
Three different passage where Jesus confronts demons. In all three the demons beg Jesus not to torment them.
2. Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:28; for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
The rich man lifts up eyes... "being in torment".
He asks that his five brother could be warned, so they won't "come to this place of torment".
Some people have the idea that Hades and the Lake of Fire are a country club. Just a nice place to go that isn't heaven.
That's not the Bible says. There will be torment there. It won't be a "fun" place.
Instead of spending so much time and effort trying to convince people "hell isn't such a bad place". We should be making an effort for them to be saved so they don't have to find out how bad it is.
BAC, you know scripture well. You should be teaching better. Please understand the picture you are drawing of God.
These scriptures are true, but more half truths.
1. Matt 8:28-34
When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time? 30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.” 32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
The demons envision a torment coming. They have not actually experienced it. So much like us, they are making assumptions of the future.
What we do see, is Jesus honoring their request to be cast into pigs. IE God who loves animals / pigs, showed more love for the demons.
Hardly what you would expect from a God who has planned to put them in a brazen bull of sort for eternity...surely?
2. This is definitely up there with the hardest scriptures to defend God on. But lets understand that that is our job. We have to defend God to others. We 'know' God in our hearts. Hence we know contentious verses and words can miss-represent Him. This is the devils agenda. If you visit any ungodly discussion site, you will find ample evidence of this type of abuse of scripture.
Anyway, back to the verse quoted.
Firstly, is the rich man on fire?
No. A person on fire does not i) talk or ii) request a drop of water on their tongue. They scream and wish for a truck load of water.
Secondly, what torment is it?
Luke 16:23 Says he
saw Abraham and Lazarus afar off. IE He saw Abrahams bosom. i) I am reminded of a poor man looking at a mansion. Would their first instinct not be to ask for money for bread? When they don't actually need it. They just want it because they know you have it. ii) Wicked people are currently in a state of torment. We know this, they don't necessarily. We know they have no peace. For them that is a normal day. A normal night. Should they see the peace we have, they will beg for it. iii) I find it interesting that Abraham talks to him. God did not hide the torment of the other side of Hades from him. Now if we re-visit Abraham's discussion on Sodom Gen 18:16-33. We see that Abraham pleaded with God to spare Sodom. God reasoned with Abraham and
Abraham approved of God's reasoning and punishment. Why is this a fact? Well because God is an open book who will also want
us to approve of His punishment. So asking any of you what punishment you will dish out to the wicked, as I have done repeatedly in my posts here, is completely valid. So, once more, I implore you to try and fathom what type of torment a person who's only crime was being rich and ignoring some poor people's needs....deserves?
Let's not fail 100% at judging God and 100% at making fair judgements for punishments.
Hell is going to be a place of torment in comparison to heaven. Sort of like an earth vs heaven. If God was going to create a cruel place, He would rather annihilate.
What Christian has thoughts of torturing their enemy? That person is NOT a Christian. We give our worst of worst enemy the lethal injection. In a humane manner. If God does not annihilate, well then He loves His enemy more then we thought. He has made a home for them. The absolutely worst thought / interpretation we can have is that He has made a place of torture. Torment is not torture. They are completely different words.
So, as I have asked Jim. Show me the evidence. Show me examples of God's hatred of a human or angel.
