An hour then your thoughts

[Sue D.]

@King J. -- why do you bring Calvinism into the conversation. Calvinism is based on the man , John Calvin. A mere man's interpretation of portions of Scripture. Mr. Armenius is the man who brings the cross position. I was on a 5-point Calvinist Forum and got bumped off. The title of the forum had nothing to do with the Calvinist perspective. I'm probably a 3-pt Calvinist -- but I Don't like labels. I'd Rather find out what the individual person believes and why they believe 'it'. Doctrinal apologetics.

Back to the subject at hand.

A born-again believer Will have a desire To please God. To serve Him.

You use the term "fellow Christians" -- so apparently you are Also a believer. I use the term born-again believer Because there are Lots of people who believe that God is real as is Jesus Christ. But that a person doesn't necessarily believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They might believe that He was simply a good religious teacher of that 'day' and died a martyr.

Would you share how you came to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior?

I've gotta take off for a while -- will be back this afternoon.

 

[KingJ]

There are those who are Firm believers in Sabbath Worship -- Most of us worship on Sunday. The idea being that we are Not to critizise either of these groups. As long as a person is taking one day a week to worship God. AND as long as it's not a 'good works' thing with them. NOW -- You're trying to apply That to limited and unlimited omniscience. You want That argument against limited omniscience. You want to be convinced that God can be good without limiting His omniscience.

God not limiting His omniscience in a Calvinistic sense is implying God is evil.

That is not a Rom 14:5 type issue. It is Rev 22:19 type issue. 'If anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll'.

Scripture says God is good. Everybody testifying of God in scripture has said He is good. God's actions in scripture, even His most violent and ruthless can be defended in court as evidence of being good. If we espouse a wicked God, based off of a personal belief / assumption we have on God, we are simply bringing a destructive heresy into the body of Christ as the devil would. Terribly stumbling the unsaved that look to us to represent God.

Well -- part of a response would be what I've already shared at some point. God creating this world in 6, 24-hr days. He Spoke everything into existence. All- power. He did NOT create the basics and then leave everything up to nature to develop over millions of years. His all-knowledge -- He told Moses through the Holy Spirit since no one except God/ trinity was there -- exactly how and when everything was created. BECAUSE He Knew that in future history there would be those who Would question the origin of this world and man. God has seen fit to Share some of His knowledge with mankind.

God spoke ''a lot'' into existence in six days. The evidence points to God putting a lot of effort into His creation, to God wanting us in His house for all eternity. We just need to meditate on 'why'.

Have you ever thought about how a rich man is to find a bride? It must be the hardest thing for him to do. Find a bride that actually loves him for who he is and not what he has. It is now a million times harder for God. God goes through so much effort with us. He lays His heart out. He creates so much. He gives true free will. He hates wickedness but accepts tolerating it in His universe for .....us and angles. All this because He wants true commitment from His intelligent creations. From us He wants a worthy bride. We, now come along with our English skills on omniscience and omnipotence and completely undo what He is trying to achieve. If I were God I would be so frustrated with Calvinists. Please meditate on this a while before you reply. Try and put yourself in God's shoes.

You also say that everyone on 'here' who disagrees with You leaves the door open for terrible assumptions of God (which You have shown) or avoided an explanation. We must close that door. "Everyone here disagreeing with me...." maybe there's a reason Why 'everyone' here is disagreeing with you.

I will chew on that thought when I hear a logical rebuttal of what I have said.

And Why would the unsaved need to be taught about God's omniscience and foreknowledge? That is Not part of God's plan for our salvation.

We are ambassadors for God to the unsaved. God wants a bride. So, as I have said earlier consider this example:

My friend wants to date my sister. He is unshaven, has smelly feet and stays in a barn. He is these things because he tends to the farm at an orphanage / works for charity. If all tell my sister is 'my friend who has smelly feet and lives in a barn wants to date her'', I have completely failed at representing my friend.

I am not sure I can say anything you will accept based on what you said earlier about witnessing. You believe we are unable to effect a change in others? Our prayers for the unsaved are in vein?

What are the destructive heresies you are referring To?

Many. One being the point I just made above. Why should we witness when we can sleep on the sofa and remain unspotted from the world.

 

[KingJ]

I would disagree here. Knowing everything, doesn't mean causing it to happen. Knowing you will make a decision doesn't mean "making" you make that decision.

No, it doesn't. Correct. Unless of course you are the Creator. Then it does.

I would be ok with that though. God can't help the fact that He is all powerful and all knowing. Does that mean He must not create me? Of course not, I am so glad He has created me.

The next issue is that we now read about torment in hell and it being an eternal separation. Ok, now we really do need to do some explaining.

So here is my position:

Creator + no limited omniscience = neither good nor evil = worthy of praise and gratitude.
Creator + no limited omniscience + hell = partial = evil = not worthy of praise.
Creator + limited omniscience + hell = good = worthy of unlimited praise and worship = worthy of us completely laying our lives down for Him.

Scripture says God is good. It says He hates evil and being lukewarm. Why is this not our starting point in grasping God?

Also keep in mind... the "no free will thing" applies to OSAS as well. If I can't get unsaved after being saved... then I lose the "free will" ability to do so. This ties in with predestination also... no true "free-will", everything was already planned. Some people try to separate these three points, but it is almost impossible to do it.

No it does not. We have absolute free will in heaven and hell. It is just ''completely impossible' that one who has laid their life down for God will now not want to be with Him. 1 + 1 = 2 not 3.

Likewise one who is completely sold out to sin, would never truly want to be with God in heaven.

Our will from being free is clearly grasped by God. He does not make mistakes when He separates the good from the evil.

Example: I see a murderer is going to kill my daughter. I jump in front and die in her place. There is no chance in hell or heaven that after I have shown this depth of intent, will now be ok with ....allowing my daughter to be raped. I will at times not want to be with her. At times disobey and argue with her. But mortal sin? Not a chance in hell. Unless I tripped and died by accident. God knows these type of Christians.

 

[KingJ]

Sometimes it gets a little tedious talking about it, but sometimes there is no getting around it.
Still I wonder... is there anything left to say about it, that hasn't already been said a thousand times?

I see very few people on here changing their minds about it either way.

When I started discussing here, I had already been meditating, praying and thinking a lot on the subject.

I received a rhema from God on this that I never grasped before. Jesus, was God limiting Himself. If He can do that unto death, He can do whatever else is needed to uphold who He is / wants to be to us. He wants a bride. He wants family that trusts Him. He wants us to grasp that He is good. He wants us to serve Him because we grasp His love and His goodness.

I have always been 50/50 on limited omniscience. Written it off as something we may perhaps better grasp in heaven. But I see now that that is not true. We can grasp it now.

I feel a related subject is prayer. The power of prayer. Does our prayer for the unsaved carry weight? Does God not tell us to pray often?

 

[Curtis]

One of the greatest things about Christ's "omniscience", insofar as Christians are concerned, is that he can never discover anything in our lives that will cause him to change his mind about us being in his family!

 

[Curtis]

There is no way God is limiting his "omniscience" in the affairs of men today. Jesus did limit himself in his incarnation, but that was only for his mission in acquiring man's salvation.

Php 2:6 Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.
Php 2:7 Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men.(Weymouth)

Now that Jesus has been raised from the dead, all of his former glory, and power has been restored back He knows all things that will happen before they happen.

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

I myself would prefer to know someone who knows everything then someone who does not.

 

[Sue D.]

Thanks for replying so quickly brother.
With no intent in getting involved...yet here I am so doing
Though not necessarily in disagreement



''This is a difficult issue to grasp. No doubt. I mean for crying out aloud we can literally not grasp a fraction of a percent of how God came to 'be'.?

Actually, I didn't see them as unrelated or I'd not have placed them together and pose the question to you.
I took the initial statement as you saying that He is not Eternal, but finite (beginning), if so then the latter point on Omniscience is an unworkable concept to attribute to God since it would require God to learn.

Truth is that I have no problem with God limiting Himself. Jesus as God incarnate did so while on Earth, but not while He was/is in Heaven. However, to me it has more to do with God's Omnipotence. Understanding that He can do anything, but also understanding that He doesn't have to do everything. It's all about His Will and not our own.

You and our Sister in Christ Jesus are having a very interesting conversation! Thanks for sharing with the rest of us you two! Love you both!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><[/QUOTE]


I was just trying to send you a 'start a conversation' message and was told 'you can't be found'. Where Are you?!

 

[Christ4Ever]

Working then working out Sister Sue.
Trying not to fall off this machine while typing with my one finger

 

[Sue D.]

Working then working out Sister Sue.
Trying not to fall off this machine while typing with my one finger

I haven't heard you fall off yet, so apparently you Can type with one finger.

 

[Sue D.]

No, it doesn't. Correct. Unless of course you are the Creator. Then it does.

I would be ok with that though. God can't help the fact that He is all powerful and all knowing. Does that mean He must not create me? Of course not, I am so glad He has created me.

The next issue is that we now read about torment in hell and it being an eternal separation. Ok, now we really do need to do some explaining.

So here is my position:

Creator + no limited omniscience = neither good nor evil = worthy of praise and gratitude.
Creator + no limited omniscience + hell = partial = evil = not worthy of praise.
Creator + limited omniscience + hell = good = worthy of unlimited praise and worship = worthy of us completely laying our lives down for Him.

Scripture says God is good. It says He hates evil and being lukewarm. Why is this not our starting point in grasping God?



No it does not. We have absolute free will in heaven and hell. It is just ''completely impossible' that one who has laid their life down for God will now not want to be with Him. 1 + 1 = 2 not 3.

Likewise one who is completely sold out to sin, would never truly want to be with God in heaven.

Our will from being free is clearly grasped by God. He does not make mistakes when He separates the good from the evil.

Example: I see a murderer is going to kill my daughter. I jump in front and die in her place. There is no chance in hell or heaven that after I have shown this depth of intent, will now be ok with ....allowing my daughter to be raped. I will at times not want to be with her. At times disobey and argue with her. But mortal sin? Not a chance in hell. Unless I tripped and died by accident. God knows these type of Christians.

Your comment -- that God can't help the fact that He is all powerful and all knowing. It sounds like you're saying "Poor guy" -- it's kind of like you're saying that a person can't help it that they were born with brown hair and blue eyes -- they are genetic traits handed to them by their parents -- but they'd Rather have had black hair and green eyes.

God did Not get His attributes by mistake. Just because 'we' have trouble comprehending 'all-powerful' and 'all knowledge' doesn't mean that He/ God shouldn't have those qualities. Let's not 'ourselves' limit God or feel sorry for Him Because He Does have those qualities. He didn't get 'too much' of those attributes. 'we' can 'see' those attributes, learn about them in God's Word.

You'd commented that you've had 10 yrs or so in discussions with atheists / Muslims, etc. -- a person needs to be Very careful that Their attitudes towards / of / God don't mess up what God's Word is Really teaching us. This would include agnostics.
And, did you by chance grow up in a non-denominational church? What belief system were you brought up in.

You kind of sound like you're trying to remake God into an entity that You can understand.

The Creator / God / only 'created' Adam and made Eve out of Adam. The rest of the world's population was a combination of egg / ***** by parents / their DNA. God DID allow / cause the ***** / egg to get fertilized - so that 'you' came into existence.


You seem to think that 'this' subject has been 'taken care of." So Now we look at torment in hell and being in eternal separation. And you're including Creator / God and limited or non-limited omniscence into an equation. So apparently You're not really finished with it.

How about 'this' -- God is The Almighty God. Worthy of our praise / worship. He is Holy and the only righteous judge. Free from any kind of sin. He 'grasps' Everything. There are No surprises for Him.

You mention 'mortal' sin. That's a RCC term. No one dies 'too soon' or 'by accident'. God alone knows when each individual will die. People have been known to be in horrible accidents and survive - virtually unhurt and someone will comment that it wasn't his/her time to die. And , then, again, someone will be doing something totally harmless and hit their head - just the right/wrong way and be dead. God , Himself decides when we enter eternity.

About hell and it's eternality. No one wants to think that God would actually 'send' anyone to hell and that it would last forever. There are those who believe that Bible teaches degrees of punishment. A relatively okay hell for those who just never got around to accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and were relatively good, nice, moral people. And then the 'horrible' hell for the repeat rapist or serial murderer, or pediphile, child molester, etc. And the Really horrible area for the Hitlers or Neros' or whomevers. The torturers of the people during the Holocost.

Well -- Scripture Also tells us in Rev. 20 or so that hell -- lake of fire and brimstone is only meant For satan, the beast and the false prophet -- Those three really deserve everlasting / eternal pain , torment.
So -- Why does anyone else end up in hell -- lake of fire and brimstone. Because they reject God's only way to stay Out of there and BE in heaven.
It's Also been stated that lake of fire and brimstone will be as eternal as heaven will be. And we know that heaven Will be eternal. God is eternal and heaven will be also.
We are familiar with fires that either burn out after a while or people who die of smoke inhalation before the flames get to them. But eventually the fire does go out. But Not the eternal hell that satan and his followers will experience.

God won't allow any sin in heaven. And a person's time to make a decision For Christ / salvation is here/ now / while on earth.

 

[KingJ]

There is no way God is limiting his "omniscience" in the affairs of men today. Jesus did limit himself in his incarnation, but that was only for his mission in acquiring man's salvation.

You are missing the boat on two issues. 1. Jesus was completely abandoned. He would not have asked ''Father, why have you forsaken me'' if He knew it would happen. 2. Jesus, points to God doing whatever is necessary to uphold being a good God to us. A good Father. A groom.

God takes His relationship with us seriously. He does not want us to have a hint of doubt on His goodness.

Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

God is omnipotent. He created everything. He created evil?

We can grasp that the existence of evil being a necessary inclusion to allow an intelligent creation true free will. Evidence of a good God. A creation has space and time to rebel, disobey and be wicked. Does God not limit His omnipotence for this? If God hates what is wicked why does He not use His omnipotence to stop all the wickedness? He limits His omnipotence! To allow for true free will. To be a good God. Free will is good.

So we see that God is not the dictionary definition of omnipotence. Likewise God is not the dictionary definition of omniscience.

God's 'all knowing' is not what we grasp as 'all knowing'. God knows all there is to know. A babies destination being heaven or hell is not something that can be known. Perhaps if the devil was the creator, it would be. The devil is not the creator.

 

[KingJ]

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.

This verse was included in scripture because it is not an obvious truth to grasp.

It is time for us to perceive the same truth and stop espousing another.

 

[B-A-C]

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.

I hear what you are saying here. Just curious... does that include the saved vs the unsaved?
Or does God love the unsaved as much as the saved?

 

[KingJ]

I hear what you are saying here. Just curious... does that include the saved vs the unsaved?
Or does God love the unsaved as much as the saved?

God is love 1 John 4:8. He can only love. God's love falls down on all like rain. The unsaved harden their hearts to Him and are like rocks that don't hold any of it. The saved are like cups that catch His love, drink it and grasp it.

God's wrath on the wicked and their eternal separation in hell, is not evidence of hate. It is evidence of God being love, just and good all at the same time.

A person in hell can ask God. God why am I here, don't you love me? God will respond ''I do love you. But you don't love me. I hate what is wicked. You love what is wicked. What is wicked, is disrespecting Me and hurting others. How can I put you with the righteous if you hurt them. If you hate them. If you hate me?''

Rom 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil, cling to what is good.

God shows Agape (selfless love) to all. But, Philos (friendship) only to the saved.

What is an interesting subject I believe is depths of love. Some Christians love God more. God is able to give them 'more' love. They have bigger cups. This is what I believe heaven will be like. We will all be growing closer to God as time goes on. Developing a deeper relationship.

 

[Sue D.]

Respecting her privacy is being a good husband.

Regarding what is good and evil, God has put us on His level when He gave us our working brains.

If He is those qualities 100% then why do you espouse a wicked God and propose He does not limit His omniscience when it points to wickedness?

Please explain.

You are not dealing with the question. I asked you to explain why you said what you said.

Glad we finally agree on something. God limited His omnipotence to do what is good. Reconcile mankind who wants to be with Him, with Him.

That is not answering the question. Yes, that is a fact because scripture says it. But it is not a fact we need to interrogate / have an explanation for the unsaved on, as it does not speak to God's character. Omniscience and foreknowledge does.

This is a Calvinistic view of the gospel. I though you said you were not a Calvinist?

This is a bit out of order in the discussion , but is very important.
"Regarding what is good and evil, God has put us on His level when He gave us our working brains.

What prompts you to make that comment --- God putting us on His level by giving us our working brains.

 

[Sue D.]

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.

This verse was included in scripture because it is not an obvious truth to grasp.

It is time for us to perceive the same truth and stop espousing another.

Every single verse in Scripture is there because God put it there. On purpose / His purpose.

 

[Sue D.]

God is love 1 John 4:8. He can only love. God's love falls down on all like rain. The unsaved harden their hearts to Him and are like rocks that don't hold any of it. The saved are like cups that catch His love, drink it and grasp it.

God's wrath on the wicked and their eternal separation in hell, is not evidence of hate. It is evidence of God being love, just and good all at the same time.

A person in hell can ask God. God why am I here, don't you love me? God will respond ''I do love you. But you don't love me. I hate what is wicked. You love what is wicked. What is wicked, is disrespecting Me and hurting others. How can I put you with the righteous if you hurt them. If you hate them. If you hate me?''

Rom 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil, cling to what is good.

God shows Agape (selfless love) to all. But, Philos (friendship) only to the saved.

What is an interesting subject I believe is depths of love. Some Christians love God more. God is able to give them 'more' love. They have bigger cups. This is what I believe heaven will be like. We will all be growing closer to God as time goes on. Developing a deeper relationship.

Where do you find in Scripture -- not your own speculation -- that a person in hell can ask God Anything?!

The passage about Lazarus and the rich man. They both die and the rich man finds himself in hell and Lazarus is in Abrahams' bosom. The information given is that there is a great gulf between the two men. No one can put a drop of water on the rich man's tongue to at least temporarily cool it. And upon being asked to Please let someone warn his other brothers of the fate waiting for them. He is told that No -- they have refused to listen just like you did. Everyone has the same opportunities on This side of death. Either accepting or rejecting. And this is only describing the temporary 'holding cell' for those waiting for the Final finality of the lake of fire and brimstone.


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that who so ever believeth in Him will not perish but have ever lasting life."

God both loves and hands down righteous judgement.

Satan is Also in this world -- only for Now -- but he is busy deceiving every person he can. That Maybe separation from God won't be all that bad. That the sinner will be with all his other sinning friends. And that's probably true -- but the conditions will be Horrible. Total darkness -- anyone who's experienced Total Darkness knows how horrible it Is. Even for a few seconds. Many years ago there was a field trip to Georgetown to InnerSpace Caverns. A beautiful underground world. There was a walk way and a tourist guide. At one point they told us that they would turn off all the lights for 30 seconds. They told us to either take hold of the railing right beside us and/ or someone's hand close by. then they turned out the lights. Total Darkness. A person couldn't see their hand in front of their face. It was Totally Erie. that was a Long 30 seconds. Underground is all artificial lighting. Outside we have Natural day light. After experiencing more of the beauty of the natural crystals, etc, we all went back up and visited the gift shop.

And, once we've experienced a bit of 'hell' -- we Won't have the option of changing our minds. As in 'satan - you Lied to me -- how Dare you. you insinuated that it would be one continual party time. I Don't Like This ANYMORE. Get Me Out Of Here -- NOW. But -- too late. Is 'trusting' God After the fact -- really Trusting?

 

[Sue D.]

You are missing the boat on two issues. 1. Jesus was completely abandoned. He would not have asked ''Father, why have you forsaken me'' if He knew it would happen. 2. Jesus, points to God doing whatever is necessary to uphold being a good God to us. A good Father. A groom.

God takes His relationship with us seriously. He does not want us to have a hint of doubt on His goodness.



God is omnipotent. He created everything. He created evil?

We can grasp that the existence of evil being a necessary inclusion to allow an intelligent creation true free will. Evidence of a good God. A creation has space and time to rebel, disobey and be wicked. Does God not limit His omnipotence for this? If God hates what is wicked why does He not use His omnipotence to stop all the wickedness? He limits His omnipotence! To allow for true free will. To be a good God. Free will is good.

So we see that God is not the dictionary definition of omnipotence. Likewise God is not the dictionary definition of omniscience.

God's 'all knowing' is not what we grasp as 'all knowing'. God knows all there is to know. A babies destination being heaven or hell is not something that can be known. Perhaps if the devil was the creator, it would be. The devil is not the creator.

Will respond to your last sentence -- "a babies' destination being heaven or hell is not something that can be known." well -- in order for a person to be able to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, they Do need to be able to distinguish right from wrong / be able to recognize their Own sin / be sad about it. A baby isn't able to distinguish anything except hunger and needing to have their wet diaper changed. But especially pain , discomfort, needing to be fed. So -- when a baby Does die -- God would be merciful and take that child to be with Himself. In the Old Testament, David and Bathsheba's infant son was taken from them -- David mourned and acknowledged that his son could Not come back to him, but that he, David, Would be reunited with him. Obviously meaning in eternity. So -- I would say that a baby's eternal destination Can be known.

God Allows evil. The tree in the Garden of Eden that God told Adam and Eve Not to eat from. The tree of the knowledge Of good And evil. Satan lied to them -- that they wouldn't really die -- God simply didn't want them to know Everything which would include 'evil'. God would have had them live having communion with Him in the Garden and not have to deal with evil. Well -- since they / we Did follow satan and did Not trust in God's Word, God provided a way to restore fellowship with Him. Through the cross. When eternity Does come, fellowship with God will be restored to like it was originally.

 

[Sue D.]

@King J. -- try "Google" -- 'define omniscience' -- I just did. You might be surprised at the results.

 

[Curtis]

You are missing the boat on two issues. 1. Jesus was completely abandoned. He would not have asked ''Father, why have you forsaken me'' if He knew it would happen. 2. Jesus, points to God doing whatever is necessary to uphold being a good God to us. A good Father. A groom.

No one can use this scripture to proof Jesus did not know what was going on during his crucifixion! Jesus was simply quoting from the Old Testament scripture, thus fulfilling prophecy. (Ps 22:1) Jesus knew everything concerning his mission as he told his disciples that he would be delivered unto the hands of wicked men, be crucified, and then raise from the dead on the third day. (Matt 17:22-23)