An hour then your thoughts

[KingJ]

Knowing something is going to happen before it happens, doesn't mean you are the cause of it happening.

BAC, you keep saying this without an explanation. Once more, if you are 100% all knowing creator, it does mean you are the cause. How does it not?

God could stop bad things from happening, but if He did, then none of us would truly have free-will. It has been argued, without knowing what evil is... none of would really know what righteousness is. Perhaps God allows it, so we will know.

I completely agree. Let's focus more on this.

God hates what is evil. But yet He allows it to exist in His universe. Why? Why is free will so important to Him?

Why does God allow something that He utterly hates and would never be caught doing (rape for example) to exist in His universe?

 

[KingJ]

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

An extract from Got Questions, Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?.

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.

Before we discuss further, would you say you completely agree with this?

 

[amadeus2]

An extract from Got Questions, Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?.

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.

Before we discuss further, would you say you completely agree with this?

No simple, yes or no, answer on this:

I agree that there are sometimes communications problems between believers and that sometimes misunderstanding of what is written in scripture occurs. [For this we have the Holy Spirit.] The scripture also says that God is good. He is not evil. He is not the author of confusion. But... God purposely opened a door that ideally men should not have walked through. Man made evil by choosing to walk through that door for the first time [and they continue to choose to walk through it] in the Garden of Eden. Directly God does not create evil but He most certainly created the possibility. If man had not chosen to disobey there would be not evil, but of course he did and did not God know that man would make that choice? Was that not known already God in His plan?

What was God's plan? The details we need to know are all written in scripture, but the why is one of the more difficult or even impossible things for us to understand. What I believe is that God wanted men to choose Him when they definitely had another choice. He wanted them to choose the Love when at times all they could perceive is the darkness around them as they walked toward Him. So many, nay most, men have chosen that alternate way and we see them all around us. We all started there. The alternative way seems to have "good" in it [they ate of the Tree of good and evil], but ultimately in that way is death and darkness and sin and the final wages of sin. In that way there is only a tiny glimmer of light. That glimmer is what allows any man to choose God and walk toward Him rather than that other way. This verse shows that available glimmer:

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9

Notice that the Light lighteth every man, not only those who choose Jesus. Every man born of woman has that much light, but all that provides is hope. Hope is good, but we must walk toward that Light which is what happens when we choose to follow Jesus rather than continuing in the other way wherein all of us were born when born to our natural mothers.

 

[Sue D.]

@ King J. -- God has knowledge that 'someone' is going to rob a bank tomorrow -- He Could prevent it -- but Will He. Probably Not. Because He has given people Free Will to choose. The person who robs the bank Will face consequences. He might get shot in the process or caught and spend time in jail / prison.

And I Have read and Reread and reread your response.

In Genesis -- God created a beautiful world for Adam and Eve. All the animals -- He had Adam name all of them -- gave him 'dominion' over them. And then He created Eve From Adam. A man and then a wo-man.

Everything in that garden was their's to enjoy == only One 'no' to obey. Their sin was listening to satan Rather than obeying God. And it's also true that neither Adam or Eve had any concept of what 'dying' would mean. Unless they had seen some of the animals die. BUT -- God said NO and they disobeyed. Apparently You believe that Our knowledge of both good And evil that we got Because of our sinning, makes us equal To God. That would Also suggest that God is Also capable of sin. And That would put all 'everything' on equal grounds. God is Holy -- No Sin in Him at all. Our sin of disobeying the only NO from God had a consequence. And 'we' don't Have to 'understand' the negative consequence. But we Do have to Accept the consequence. And, when we are given a way Out of the negative consequence -- we Can either take the way out or choose Not to.

But -- None of That puts us on equal ground with God. We were Not Meant To have That knowledge. Because As human beings -- we have within our nature To do wrong.

Now -- the 'what if's' -- Since God had both Adam and Eve naked and okay with it -- they were made with ability to reproduce between themselves. So -- nakedness would equate to innocence -- they enjoyed their bodies -- they'd figure out How to enjoy each other and start having babies. One after another after another. And as their kids grew up and their hormones kicked in -- they would start enjoying each other's bodies , Also. And since no one would be dying -- and everyone would continue to live and enjoy each other. The older sons would be discovering Eve and daughters would discover Adam. God created life with no boundaries.

It was due to the 'fall' their sinning that child-bearing would be painful AND Eve would be desiring only her husband, Adam. So -- as a result -- since everyone was living hundreds of years -- Adam and Eve would keep on having children and Their children would be mating with their older brothers / sisters. None of them would be living in the same household. As their kids became old enough to be on their own -- they would spread out geographically.

 

[Sue D.]

BAC, you keep saying this without an explanation. Once more, if you are 100% all knowing creator, it does mean you are the cause. How does it not?


I completely agree. Let's focus more on this.

God hates what is evil. But yet He allows it to exist in His universe. Why? Why is free will so important to Him?

Why does God allow something that He utterly hates and would never be caught doing (rape for example) to exist in His universe?

To show us just how sinful we really Are capable of being. That we really Do Need a Savior. And, of Course, God would NOT be doing any of those things Himself.

The Only time it Could be said that God was on our level -- was when He came into this world as Jesus Christ, the Son. Even Then He was 100 % divine AND 100 % man. He was here in a form of a man -- looking like a Jewish man. He was Tempted in all ways like we experience, but yet without sin. His 'mission' was to show mankind His Father -- to die on the cross -- shed His blood to take care of our sins. Then He rose back from the dead after those three days and after 40 more days ascended back up to the Father in heaven. He was Immanuel = God with us. None of Us are 100 % deity , so we are not on God's level. We Are 100 % human.

Free will is necessary -- God did Not create us to be His puppets. We Need to have 'choice'. Even though God already knows the choice we'll make 'tomorrow'. The fact is that We don't know what choices we'll make.

 

[B-A-C]

BAC, you keep saying this without an explanation. Once more, if you are 100% all knowing creator, it does mean you are the cause. How does it not?

If I create a car, and it kills someone... is it my fault?
If I create a gun and it kills someone is it my fault just because I created it?

Do you have children? I have 8 (if you include 3 step-children). Five are biologically mine.
I guess you could say I created them.. (yes, I know God created them.. but you know what I mean).
My oldest one ones were already teenagers before the youngest ones were born.

Having already been a parent for over a decade, I already had a good idea that the next ones I had weren't going to be perfect.
Some of my children are following the Lord. Some are not. Some do drugs and are very liberal. Some support homosexuality.
I knew this could happen before my wife got pregnant.

So what do we do? Just not have them? (some people do feel this way) because they might be trouble.
(I can practically guarantee, that at some point, kids WILL be trouble).
The other option is just lock them up in the basement, hand-cuff them to the bed, and bring them bread and water every so often.
That way they can never get into trouble.

God could "lock us up" and take away our choices. If I locked someone up and took away their choices, would that be "good" or "evil"?
This is slightly different than locking someone up AFTER they made a bad choice. Police do this to people who make bad choices.

Did I want some of my kids to be where they are today? No, not at all. But they made choices, and well... there they are.
If my kids died today, I have good idea some would go to heaven, but I am pretty sure at least 3 of them would not.
They deny Jesus, they don't believe the Bible, and they are pretty rebellious.

So why don't we just kill them all off? In fact maybe I should've just had my wife get abortions before any of them were ever born.
I wouldn't have this problem. For that matter, if all infants automatically go to heaven when they die, having an abortion is the best
way to guarantee it.

I love my kids. Even the "not always so good" ones. Even the ones that have been in jail and done drugs.
Now of course, I hope someday they will turn around and get right with God. But even if they never do. I still love them.

Maybe God knows some of His "kids" will never accept Jesus. Maybe He knows they will be evil. He didn't create them to be evil
anymore than I created than gun to be evil. But nonetheless, they "chose" to be evil. There are consequences for these choices.

But taking the choices away would be more evil than just letting them make bad choices.
Have you never made a bad choice in your life? I have... many. Even after getting saved.. have you ever made a bad choice?
Have you ever done anything evil? Ever committed a sin? I know I have. Ever done anything to hurt someone else?
I've done that too. (not always intentional, but sometimes it was). I guess God should've just killed me from the start.
Maybe when I was an infant. Then I would have never sinned.

But maybe God loves us. Maybe even when we aren't perfect. Maybe even when we make mistakes. Maybe even when we sin
and hurt people. (I believe we can take this too far). Maybe He likes watching us grow. Watching us become more like Him.
Watching us mature in the spirit. Maybe He just loves His children.

Life is messy. Life hurts sometimes. The Bible says.. "ALL" have sinned (except Jesus).. so maybe God just shouldn't have created anyone.
Then you and I wouldn't even be here having this discussion. But He did create us, and He created us with the ability to "choose".

 

[KingJ]

If I create a car, and it kills someone... is it my fault?
If I create a gun and it kills someone is it my fault just because I created it?

God created the gun and the person who shoots it to kill someone. Your example applies to a human, not God.

Then, an argument can be made that if you make a gun for volatile people, you are to blame. Kind of like the USA supplying weapons of mass destruction to North Korea for example.

Do you have children? I have 8 (if you include 3 step-children). Five are biologically mine. I guess you could say I created them.. (yes, I know God created them.. but you know what I mean). My oldest one ones were already teenagers before the youngest ones were born.

That's a lot of children, I have two.

Having already been a parent for over a decade, I already had a good idea that the next ones I had weren't going to be perfect. Some of my children are following the Lord. Some are not. Some do drugs and are very liberal. Some support homosexuality. I knew this could happen before my wife got pregnant.

Focus on a baby in your hands and you grasping they would be a mortal sinner? I think not.

So what do we do? Just not have them? (some people do feel this way) because they might be trouble. (I can practically guarantee, that at some point, kids WILL be trouble). The other option is just lock them up in the basement, hand-cuff them to the bed, and bring them bread and water every so often. That way they can never get into trouble.

We have to ''''grasp''' that God wills all to be with Him 1 Tim 2:4. God is 100% fair and everyone gets 100% equal and fair opportunity. God also loves those who hate Him. Nothing should stop us from having more kids. If the devil was god, sure. But God is good. Exceedingly good. There is so much more to say on this, perhaps for another thread.

So why don't we just kill them all off? In fact maybe I should've just had my wife get abortions before any of them were ever born. I wouldn't have this problem. For that matter, if all infants automatically go to heaven when they die, having an abortion is the best way to guarantee it.

God is 100% impartial and fair on all. If Adam and Eve had the devil with them, all infants that make it to heaven, will still get their day Rev 20:3.

I love my kids. Even the "not always so good" ones. Even the ones that have been in jail and done drugs. Now of course, I hope someday they will turn around and get right with God. But even if they never do. I still love them.

Would you ever be partial to your kids? Give one 21 year old a Mercedes and another 21 year old a skateboard, when you can afford another Mercedes? If you were, would any sane thinking person on the planet agree with you stating that you love your kids equally?

This thread's subject matter is God's partiality. Making a vessel unto dishonor and another unto honor.

Maybe God knows some of His "kids" will never accept Jesus. Maybe He knows they will be evil. He didn't create them to be evil anymore than I created than gun to be evil. But nonetheless, they "chose" to be evil. There are consequences for these choices.

You can only believe ''they chose'', if God was impartial when He made them.

For God to be impartial when He made them, He has to have not used His omniscience for evil. IE Made ANY unto dishonor. He has to be true to making them unto dishonor OR honor.

Just as God allows what He utterly hates in His universe to exist. He does not use His omnipotence to stop all evil. Likewise He does not use His omniscience to be evil. Partiality IS evil. He can be partial. The devil would if he was in charge. Our God is NOT a devil. I would like it if we could stop espousing He is and being oblivious to what we are espousing.

 

[B-A-C]

Would you ever be partial to your kids? Give one 21 year old a Mercedes and another 21 year old a skateboard, when you can afford another Mercedes? If you were, would any sane thinking person on the planet agree with you stating that you love your kids equally?

Loving the equally? Yes. Treating them equally? No.
There is a difference.

Some people are more responsible than others. Even God knows this. There are several passages in the Bible about maturing,
training yourself, studying to show yourself approved, moving from milk to meat, training your senses, disciplining yourself,
..etc...

I know quite a few people who are in their 40's, 50's and 60's who are still 16 years old. They still smoke weed, still dress like they are 14.
Don't bathe often, never shave, use offensive language, have terrible manners, show up late for work every day, and wonder why they
can't get ahead in life. The are socially immature, spiritually dead, and physically either drunk or high most of the time.

Would I give them a new car? Even if they are my child? No. But not because I love them any less.

When my older kids were teenagers, I let them play football or kickball or whatever... in the street. We lived where there was no where
else to play for a while. The nearest park was about 4 miles away. They did this for years and none of them ever got hit by a car.
They were responsible enough "to get out of the street". I didn't let my 2 and 3 years olds play in the street during this time.
Was it because I loved them less? Or was it because I loved them just as much?

Yet you could say, I wasn't treating them equally... and you would be be right. Does this make me evil?

You can only believe ''they chose'', if God was impartial when He made them.

This is the crux of the whole thread. I don't believe God treats everyone equally. But I believe He loves them all equally.
Just as I don't always treat my kids equally... but I love them equally. I don't love the successful ones anymore than the un-successful ones.
I give them what I think they can handle. God says He will never give us more than we can handle.... but I suspect some us of can handle
more than others, because we are more spiritually mature.

Now I realize that time isn't an issue with God. But it is for us. Consider this.
God comes up with this plan for creation. He creates mankind. Hoping they will be "good" (obedient).
He tells them... don't eat from the tree. But they do it anyway. Was it His fault? Yes He created them. But He didn't "make" them sin.
They chose to.

He gives them many chances to redeem themselves. Even Cain and Abel made sacrifice offerings.
Then there was circumcision, and priests. Then we had the law and the commandments. Finally we have Jesus and grace.
It wasn't like God wasn't trying. It wasn't like He wasn't giving people opportunities. It's never been easier.

He still gives everyone opportunity. Everyday. Anyone can get saved. God is no respecter of people. He is impartial, He doesn't
favor the Jews over Gentiles.

This issue of foreknowledge seems to be a stumbling block. If God knows the future... why doesn't He stop some things from happening.
1. He already made the decision to make these people.
2. He gave them free-choice.

As I said earlier to take away that choice would be evil. God wants people in His kingdom that choose Him.
He doesn't force people in.

If there were no wars, there would be soldiers. If there was no crime, there would be no policemen. If there were no fires, there would be no
firemen. If there was none of these things, there would be no heros.

If there was no sin, there would be no need for a Savior. If there were no people, there would be no sin... (how far do you want to take this?)
The Bible says God rewards those who "overcome". If there was nothing to overcome, there would be no reward.

After God decided to make you. He played the VHS tape of your life before you were even created.
Oh man... look at that KingJ guy. He stumbled here. He failed there. He sinned that time over there.
Then he played my tape too.
Wow... look at that B-A-C guy. He is a real mess up. He sinned more than 7 times seventy. He has hurt people.
I don't know if I should create that guy.

But He loves us, and He went ahead and created us anyway. He gave us life. If you think about it. Life is really the ability
to choose. People in prison don't really have "life".

At the end of the day... He can say to us... well done good and faithful servant.. you made the right choices.
Or....
He can say... depart from me you worker of iniquity, you lazy and worthless servant... you made the wrong choices.

But either way... no matter where we end up. He gave us the chance to choose.
If He never created us... we would never have had that chance.

Now isn't amazing... that after God looked at our "life tapes" (maybe He just read our story in the Book of Life) but either way,
He knew we would mess up and He created us anyway. He knew we would sin before we were ever born.
But the amazing thing is...
He sent His Son to die for us. (I know you already get that part) But still... even though He knew creation wasn't perfect.
He already had a plan for it to be reconciled to Him.

 

[B-A-C]

If you think about it. Life is really the ability
to choose. People in prison don't really have "life".

After thinking a bit more about this. I dabble around in programming computers.
Most computer programs try to "make choices". There are things like IF, or IF ELSE, or CASE, or IF EQUALS, or if greater, if less than...
Depending on the value returned.. the computer does this or that. But computers don't really have the ability to choose.
We can program conditions in that tell them to do this or that... but they never really have the ability to choose on their own.
They can only choose what we tell them to choose. There are people trying to make something called "artificial intelligence". This is based on something called "probability". But even the probability is really just another algorithm, based on IF THIS or IF THAT.
But I don't think it will ever really succeed. That's the difference between God and us.

Thinking about hell and the Lake of Fire....
The people that go there... they are still "alive" in a sense. But they don't have "life". What's the difference?
They no longer have the ability to choose, their fate is sealed. If God took away our choice, how different would life really be?

God gave us life.... Life. How wonderful is that?

 

[Sue D.]

@ King J. -- you commented about a baby in a person's arms and being a 'mortal' sinner. The RCC has mortal and immortal sins -- is that what you're referring to? A mortal sinner? A mortal is a human in contrast with 'immortal'. ?!

 

[B-A-C]

Roman Catholics also believe in "mortal" sins vs "venial" sins.
They believe there are some "grey" sins that aren't bad enough to send you to hell.
They are just "minor" sins that God doesn't really care much about.

1 Jn 5:17; All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

Venial sin - Wikipedia

Mortal sin - Wikipedia

Keep in mind, I am NOT Roman Catholic, and these are NOT my opinions.
I tend to be more like James.

Jas 2:10; For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

 

[Sue D.]

Roman Catholics also believe in "mortal" sins vs "venial" sins.
They believe there are some "grey" sins that aren't bad enough to send you to hell.
They are just "minor" sins that God doesn't really care much about.

1 Jn 5:17; All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

Venial sin - Wikipedia

Mortal sin - Wikipedia

Keep in mind, I am NOT Roman Catholic, and these are NOT my opinions.
I tend to be more like James.

Jas 2:10; For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Okay -- just wondering what King J.'s thought was when he mentioned it.

 

[KingJ]

Loving the equally? Yes. Treating them equally? No.
There is a difference.

Discussing their treatment is moving the goal posts. I am only referring to equal / impartial love and treatment.

Explain to someone who finds them-self in hell, in torment for all eternity. How them being there is their fault and not the evil and contrived workings of an all knowing, all powerful, all present Creator of all.

Would I give them a new car? Even if they are my child? No. But not because I love them any less.

When my older kids were teenagers, I let them play football or kickball or whatever... in the street. We lived where there was no where
else to play for a while. The nearest park was about 4 miles away. They did this for years and none of them ever got hit by a car.
They were responsible enough "to get out of the street". I didn't let my 2 and 3 years olds play in the street during this time.
Was it because I loved them less? Or was it because I loved them just as much?

Yet you could say, I wasn't treating them equally... and you would be be right. Does this make me evil?

Please focus on partiality vs impartiality.

This is the crux of the whole thread. I don't believe God treats everyone equally. But I believe He loves them all equally.

No it is not. When the a-z of their ''treatment'' is eternal hell by an all knowing Creator, it is evidence heavily in favor of there not being equal love.

God comes up with this plan for creation. He creates mankind. Hoping they will be "good" (obedient).
He tells them... don't eat from the tree. But they do it anyway. Was it His fault? Yes He created them. But He didn't "make" them sin.
They chose to.

How does a God who knows it all create mankind ''hoping'' they will be good?

He gives them many chances to redeem themselves. Even Cain and Abel made sacrifice offerings.
Then there was circumcision, and priests. Then we had the law and the commandments. Finally we have Jesus and grace.
It wasn't like God wasn't trying. It wasn't like He wasn't giving people opportunities. It's never been easier.

He still gives everyone opportunity. Everyday. Anyone can get saved. God is no respecter of people. He is impartial, He doesn't
favor the Jews over Gentiles.

This issue of foreknowledge seems to be a stumbling block. If God knows the future... why doesn't He stop some things from happening.
1. He already made the decision to make these people.
2. He gave them free-choice.

As I said earlier to take away that choice would be evil. God wants people in His kingdom that choose Him.
He doesn't force people in.

I completely agree with all this. You are proving that all the evidence points to the existence of true free will. Now we just need to give an explanation of how that is possible.

 

[KingJ]

After God decided to make you. He played the VHS tape of your life before you were even created.
Oh man... look at that KingJ guy. He stumbled here. He failed there. He sinned that time over there.
Then he played my tape too.
Wow... look at that B-A-C guy. He is a real mess up. He sinned more than 7 times seventy. He has hurt people.
I don't know if I should create that guy.

But He loves us, and He went ahead and created us anyway. He gave us life. If you think about it. Life is really the ability
to choose. People in prison don't really have "life".

Why do you say He loved us anyway? If He knew my eternity would be eternal torment in hell, after watching my tape (that he made), why create me?

Now isn't amazing... that after God looked at our "life tapes" (maybe He just read our story in the Book of Life) but either way, He knew we would mess up and He created us anyway. He knew we would sin before we were ever born. But the amazing thing is...He sent His Son to die for us. (I know you already get that part) But still... even though He knew creation wasn't perfect. He already had a plan for it to be reconciled to Him.

Playing devils advocate. He knew many would reject Jesus (He made them, every atom, every molecule) and yet made no plan for them other then eternal separation and torment in fire....and you espouse a God that is good and loves all equally?

 

[KingJ]

After thinking a bit more about this. I dabble around in programming computers.
Most computer programs try to "make choices". There are things like IF, or IF ELSE, or CASE, or IF EQUALS, or if greater, if less than...
Depending on the value returned.. the computer does this or that. But computers don't really have the ability to choose.

This is something that requires a lot more thought. The difference between us and advanced AI is not simply being more advanced AI. We have a freedom way beyond AI that is hard to explain. Almost as though we are a part of God / Have a part of Him in us. Able to live in a state beyond, way beyond any hint of programming.

We can program conditions in that tell them to do this or that... but they never really have the ability to choose on their own.
They can only choose what we tell them to choose. There are people trying to make something called "artificial intelligence". This is based on something called "probability". But even the probability is really just another algorithm, based on IF THIS or IF THAT.
But I don't think it will ever really succeed. That's the difference between God and us.

Not following your last line. ''That's the difference between God and us''. What is? We are programmed and God is not?

Thinking about hell and the Lake of Fire....
The people that go there... they are still "alive" in a sense. But they don't have "life". What's the difference?
They no longer have the ability to choose, their fate is sealed. If God took away our choice, how different would life really be?

I don't believe God ever removes our free will. Not when we in heaven, or for those in hell. Being in heaven vs hell is evidence of a choice we made. Evidence of true free will. It is not correct to say we lose it. Rather, I would say we are living with our free will choice. We will be restricted from making free will decisions in heaven?

God gave us life.... Life. How wonderful is that?

Playing devil's advocate. TERRIBLE if you are the unlucky vessel created unto dishonor.

 

[KingJ]

@ King J. -- you commented about a baby in a person's arms and being a 'mortal' sinner. The RCC has mortal and immortal sins -- is that what you're referring to? A mortal sinner? A mortal is a human in contrast with 'immortal'. ?!

Mortal sins are grievous sins. Those sins that for example warranted the death penalty among Jews in the OT.

Okay -- just wondering what King J.'s thought was when he mentioned it.

Nobody can grasp that a cute little baby in their hands will be a Judas. All babies go to heaven, because all babies qualify to go to heaven. All babies qualify to go to heaven, because God sees NO wicked in them. If He saw a Judas, He would see a wicked.

Would you marry a man you knew would cheat on you multiple times in the future? What would someone say of you if you did?

Would you marry a man that you knew would murder your children in the future? What would someone say of you if you did?

As ambassadors of God, we have to grasp the '''what would someone say of Him if He did'' question. There is nothing that will stop God from welcoming a baby into heaven. Why?

If you disagree with that statement, then you believe babies can go to hell? What would someone say of God if they saw Him send a baby to hell?

 

[Sue D.]

@King J. -- babies -- very small children go to heaven If they die at that time in life Because they have no sense of right and wrong. Their soul means of communication is Crying. A child needs to be old enough / mentally capable of realizing they have done something that displeases God and are sad / remorseful about it. And then they can be taught - from God's Word --maybe using a Child's Bible -- about Jesus Christ dying on the cross for everyone's sins and rising again for Them and everyone else. Children as young as 5 have been able to understand that and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. It was the youth pastor's little girl. She started asking questions which her parents answered. They had family-time every day -- read their Bible and prayed together. Her parents said that one day she simply went to her room by herself and came back a bit later and told her Mother that she had asked Jesus to be her Savior. So the Mom asked her about it very nonchallantly -- as in -- what did she Do? She explained. So that Mom knew that little daughter Did, in fact, understand salvation and what she had done. They continued with daily Bible reading and praying like they always had. Never said another thing about it -- just observed their daughter and she Did show outward signs of the inner decision.

And Maybe God Does allow unborn children To be aborted by people -- so they can be with Him Before they have a chance To rebel. Or He Does allow babies / small children to die while still in their innosense to spare them of growing into a sinful nature. God Does have His Sovereign will.

People Usually enter into marriage because they love each other and want to be together --hopefully for the rest of their lives. If I, myself, got married Knowing that my husband was going to cheat on me I would be foolish to marry him. It would spare me a lot of heart-ache. Or if my attitude was -- 'if things Don't work out, then....." -- I wouldn't Get married in the first place. Never get married with divorce as an option. Marriage is Supposed to mean committment to That person -- taking marriage Seriously.

God has spared us that knowledge of the future. We live life day-by-day.

WE do Not have foreknowledge -- Only God Does.

yes, born-again believers Are ambassadors of God. We represent Him to others who we are around. Our lives Need to reflect Jesus Christ.

There's been a man recently who Did murder his wife and two small children. He Will answer to both Society AND --Most Importantly to God for his actions. Now Maybe, while in prison --he Will be reached with the Gospel unto salvation and accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. Then - in spite Of killing his family -- he will be in heaven for eternity.

In the Bible - we read about the prophet of God who was told To marry a prostitute and had several children with her. The book of Hosea and his wife was Gomar. He obeyed God every step of the way.

How about the student who was brilliant in medicine. A very promising future here in the states. But --feels led to go to medical missions in one of those back-wards countries rather than stay Here where he can make a really good living. Maybe his friends / family think he's crazy -- he goes anyway and is a very full-filled Christian Dr. / surgeon. In the process of treating those people, he's able to lead them to Christ and observe them growing in Christ.

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ. -- referring to your comments in # 336 -- mortal sins -- we're not living in the Old Testament -- we're in New Testament. Both Jews and Gentiles. To God -- sin is sin.

The only 'sin unto death' is that of rejecting God -- Jesus Christ as God's Son --His salvation.

And there Are lots of people who believe they Need to keep the Ten Commandments ... or Else. The Jewish element Need to accept Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah.


Going back up to # 335 -- Your comments following B-A-C's second section of comments "That's the difference between God and us." What is? That we are programmed and God is Not?" an interesting comment on your part. Please explain more?!

 

[Sue D.]

Can any one explain where it is 'we' indicate 'liking' a post ? I tried clicking the little white heart and nothing happened.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

, I myself lean to thinking OSAS is true but am not 100% certain either way, I know I am never going back to life I used to lead.

Don't ever buy into it. It is false doctrine out of hell.

There are lots of scriptures that destroy that belief but Christian people refuse these scriptures and insist they are not talking about real christians but they are.