I want to intervene for one person already in hell.

[KingJ]

God DOES have all-knowledge -- we don't. Two sides to the coin -- on one side -- God Does know who will and who won't. On the Other side - We are Told to go and make disciples of men. WE don't know who will and who won't. Would We have a chain-saw murdered end up in heaven? No, we want him / her to suffer in hell Forever. Especially if one of his/ her victims was one of our family. But -- Maybe that chain-saw murdered will hear about Gospel unto salvation while In prison and his heart will be touched and will accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior. And then take the little old lady / man who's been sharing Christ all their lives. But it's been entirely Head knowledge with them. They've Never accepted what they've been sharing for Themselves and that person Also dies. So -- the nice older person ends up in hell and the chain-saw murderer ends up in heaven. I presented this scenario in another Forum and just about got banned.

My point is that only God has 'this' knowledge. We are to share to whom ever is willing to listen.

Your intentions are good, but this does not defend God. God limits His omniscience to uphold what is good. Who He wants to be to us. Omniscience and His goodness are two sides of the same coin.

 

[povawiqe]

Well now we getting somewhere. You accept annihilation and Calvinism because you disagree with eternal torment. That is like swallowing a lessor evil God over an extremely evil God. How about, just accept scripture. Accept the revelation of Jesus Eph 3:18. God is very good.

We need to ask the question considering who God is. Namely 'How does a good God deal with those sold out to wickedness'. What good person, what Christian says '''accept or die?''. I want to propose none. Absolutely nobody in their right mind who professes to be a good person would enforce that. Nobody!!! If anyone of us said that we would all agree they are mad and if we didn't, we just needed to be on the receiving end of such judgement to grasp it.

Now granted, it is not simply a case of 'accept or die' as wicked are wicked. But, not all wicked are extremely wicked. The righteous are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18. Hence, hell does not consist of only extremely wicked people. It consists of all that crossed a line, but on the other side of that line there are still degrees. Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done''.

So, how does a good God deal with those that hate Him more then they love Him? Well, I would like to start with considering His instruction to us in Matt 5:44 Love your enemies. God is not a hypocrite. He loves His enemies. He can only love. Yet the dilemma is, they hate Him. They will not change. So what do you do as a good God? Not an unreasonable question for us to answer as we are on the level of God in understanding what is right and wrong Gen 3:22 / IE a fitting punishment we can judge 1 Cor 6:1-9.

Well what do good people do with those that hate them? Geneva convention. Russians refused to sign. Allies signed. Geneva convention stipulated the fair treatment but yet separation of the wicked enemy. Are we to compare our God with the Russians (of WW2) or the Allies? Should a Christian not do better then the Geneva convention? Yes. Then what of a God that is light with no darkness in Him at all?. That defines Himself as love? 1 John 4:8.

I propose that hell is as nice a place as possible from God's doing. But it is a place of misery and suffering because of who you are and whom you are surrounded with for all eternity.

Note Luke 13:28 says ''they weeped and gnashed their teeth when they looked up and saw God and the prophets''.

To understand an eternal hell you need to first understand true free will.

To understand true free will from an omniscient and omnipotent God, you need to understand His goodness. Christians do. We have absolutely no excuse for miss-representing God!!!

The scriptures say God predestines, plain and simple. It is you who does not accept scripture, the ones I quoted you proving that what I am saying is the truth. So be it, refuse away. Soon enough you will know I was right, because on that great and terrible day it will be known who was right and who was wrong.

 

[KingJ]

The scriptures say God predestines, plain and simple. It is you who does not accept scripture, the ones I quoted you proving that what I am saying is the truth. So be it, refuse away. Soon enough you will know I was right, because on that great and terrible day it will be known who was right and who was wrong.

I have proven that you have grossly miss-represented scripture and God.

Convince me on how a God that describes Himself as light with no darkness in Him at all is ok with you telling others that He will be partial and annihilate all the unlucky ones.

 

[povawiqe]

I have proven that you have grossly miss-represented scripture and God.

Convince me on how a God that describes Himself as light with no darkness in Him at all is ok with you telling others that He will be partial and annihilate all the unlucky ones.

You have proven nothing, except give your own spiel that twists and ignores scripture. You are deceived. I will requote the same scriptures, so anyone else reading this knows that what I am saying is the truth.

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be set-apart and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4)

But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers beloved by the Master, that God has chosen you from the beginning unto deliverance in the set-apartness of the airflow, and by belief of the truth; (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29)

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Master, and as many as were appointed to aeonial life believed. (Acts 13:48)

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22)

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” (John 12:40)

…he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18)

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God’s purpose in election might stand.” (R0mans 9:11-13)

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44)

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4)

 

[KingJ]

The scriptures say God predestines, plain and simple.

The devil used cherry picked scripture out of its context when tempting Jesus. You are doing the same thing.

Believing you are a chosen one and everyone else is not as special. Not as chosen. This is a very convenient belief. It is completely contrary to what Paul teaches.

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Sue D.]

Your intentions are good, but this does not defend God. God limits His omniscience to uphold what is good. Who He wants to be to us. Omniscience and His goodness are two sides of the same coin.

Actually -- does God really Need our defending Him?! We Are to proclaim Him as Almighty God -- Creator of All. His omniscience means He has All Knowledge. Why would He need to limit His knowledge. We are the one's with limited knowledge. His ways are Not our ways nor His thoughts , our thoughts.

God IS Holy -- we are Not.

 

[povawiqe]

The devil used cherry picked scripture out of its context when tempting Jesus. You are doing the same thing.

Believing you are a chosen one and everyone else is not as special. Not as chosen. This is a very convenient belief. It is completely contrary to what Paul teaches.

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Being chosen does not negate obedience to God, in fact, obedience to God reveals having been chosen. Someone who is chosen will have believed in Yeshuah, will have lowered himself by selling his possessions, will have repented by coming into perfect obedience of the Torah, will have gotten rid of all paper money and digital money to stop using the mark of the beast, will have begun to do good works by giving to the poor, and ultimately, would've have received the airflow of God, thus delivering him from the sinful nature, and perfected him inwardly, and in this way, caused to never sin again. All of these are characteristics that someone who is chosen will have.

 

[Sue D.]

@povawiqe -- sounds like a Lot of good works. No one is able to come into complete obedience to the Torah -- there's no need to get rid of paper money -- 'we' don't Have the mark of the beast / that would mean that lots of people would already have a visible mark on their forehead or back of their hand. And no one would be able to buy or sell without that mark. And those conditions don't exist, yet.

Am assuming that your reference to being 'chosen' is referring to those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

Or maybe you're referring to the Children of Israel? or maybe the 144,000 who are sealed in Revelation to go reach / evangelize the Jews who hadn't yet accepted Jesus as the Messiah.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says Not of works so that no one will have anything To be boastful about.

There will Never be sinless perfection in this world. Only in heaven.

We Are told to not Love money. Some people have felt led to Not have many personal possessions. But being proud of Not having much of anything is Also sinful.

And what exactly is the 'airflow' of God. Are you referring to the Holy Spirit coming to indwell a person at the time of their salvation? If so, that does Not make a person inwardly perfect. The indwelling Of the Holy Spirit Will give us new desires. A desire to obey God -- but we will Still have the propensity For sinning.

 

[povawiqe]

@povawiqe -- sounds like a Lot of good works. No one is able to come into complete obedience to the Torah -- there's no need to get rid of paper money -- 'we' don't Have the mark of the beast / that would mean that lots of people would already have a visible mark on their forehead or back of their hand. And no one would be able to buy or sell without that mark. And those conditions don't exist, yet.

Am assuming that your reference to being 'chosen' is referring to those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

Or maybe you're referring to the Children of Israel? or maybe the 144,000 who are sealed in Revelation to go reach / evangelize the Jews who hadn't yet accepted Jesus as the Messiah.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says Not of works so that no one will have anything To be boastful about.

There will Never be sinless perfection in this world. Only in heaven.

We Are told to not Love money. Some people have felt led to Not have many personal possessions. But being proud of Not having much of anything is Also sinful.

And what exactly is the 'airflow' of God. Are you referring to the Holy Spirit coming to indwell a person at the time of their salvation? If so, that does Not make a person inwardly perfect. The indwelling Of the Holy Spirit Will give us new desires. A desire to obey God -- but we will Still have the propensity For sinning.

The Messiah said "be perfect" and "stop sinning", and through his blood we are freed from sin when we receive the airflow of God. If you still sin, you have not been delivered from slavery to sin and are still a slave to sin. And if you are still a slave to sin, you will not inherit the kingdom of God. The mark of the beast is indeed paper money and digital money, "fiat currency", because it is the way the central banks of the world have defrauded the nations by issuing worthless fiat currency, through which they leverage inflation, which in turn causes the inhabitants of the earth to become poorer as their fiat currencies become worth less day by day and their incomes lag behind inflation, which in turn causes them to need to borrow to acquire the same things men even just 100 years ago could acquire without debt, which in turn, through debt, the inhabitants of the earth become even poorer through interest, which in turn, enslaves them to the bankers, and thus the bankers become owners of everything, it is the greatest ponzi scheme the world has ever seen, and that is why it is the "mark of the beast" prophesied to come in the book of Revelation. And these fiat currencies also only exist by the mutual consent of the people who use it day by day, which is why they are just as worthy to receive the curses that come along with it just as the ones who issue it. "Paper money" is the "name of the beast", because when you buy or sell with it you are buying or selling in the name of the banks who issued it, not in anything of value, because it is fiat currency. And digital money is the "number of the name", which are numbers calculated on computers based on paper money to buy or sell. The "right hand" is a symbol for authority in the book of Revelation, if you have either of these two, you have the either to buy or sell. And the "forehead" is a symbol of being owned by the one whose name is written on the forehead, which in relation to fiat currency, is "debt", which is being owned by the banks, for through debt you are also able to buy or sell, with credit cards, mortgages, auto loans, etc. This is the truth that few will tell you. Read my study on this here, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2018/12/0...the-mark-of-the-beast-and-the-meaning-of-666/ .

 

[Christ4Ever]

Someone who is chosen will have believed in Yeshuah, will have lowered himself by selling his possessions, will have repented by coming into perfect obedience of the Torah, will have gotten rid of all paper money and digital money to stop using the mark of the beast, will have begun to do good works by giving to the poor, and ultimately, would've have received the airflow of God, thus delivering him from the sinful nature, and perfected him inwardly, and in this way, caused to never sin again. All of these are characteristics that someone who is chosen will have.

Hello Povawige,
Very curious paragraph you have written here.
Maybe, creating a thread on the subject, might be useful. This way we don't move too far afield from the thread subject.
Thanks.

Many questions come to mind for what to start the subject thread on, but here's a couple that might drive its start.
Did I read you right that paper money is the mark of the beast?
Coins are in and paper dominations are out?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><

 

[povawiqe]

Hello Povawige,
Very curious paragraph you have written here.
Maybe, creating a thread on the subject, might be useful. This way we don't move too far afield from the thread subject.
Thanks.

Many questions come to mind for what to start the subject thread on, but here's a couple that might drive its start.
Did I read you right that paper money is the mark of the beast?
Coins are in and paper dominations are out?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><

Paper money is indeed the mark of the beast, because of the fraud committed through it. It represents a false quantity, which is forbidden in the Torah.

 

[imsoconfused]

Someone just answer me this one question please. What does it mean to “believe in Him.” ?

 

[imsoconfused]

I got all kinds of off the wall answers to my other question... just try to answer me this, what does it mean to “believe in Him.” If all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of the Lord? If all of OUR righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. That’s someone literally trying as hard as they can to be “sinless” and they are still seen as filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord. So what does it mean to “believe?” Why is it that the only way He loves us is if we are not ourselves around him? He has to impute his glory onto us? Has it already happened to everyone when he died on the cross? Maybe this is all a big scam to make money and we are all actually going to heaven when we die because of what Jesus did? I’m certain that you guys are only choosing to trust in Jesus because you personally don’t want to go to hell. Not because you love God. You are afraid of burning and being tortured for all eternity I’m sure of it because non of this makes sense. Jesus didn’t want us to pay tithes. Pastors get paid from the tithes. The money all goes to the church. why do you think they are so Huge? It’s a weekly income for them. Sometimes 3 times a week. It’s sick. A very well thought out sick money snatching trick. And if you don’t think so then “you are a sinner and are going to hell.” I’m sure somehow, this site gets money in some way, probably asking for donations like all of the Christian radio stations as well. Look up pastor popoff. I have finally, just about, given up all hope in how to gain salvation. Is Calvinism correct is Arminianism correct? These debates cannot and will not ever be successfully answered one way or the other. God would have done a much better job at communicating with us if it were true. Correct? Someone tell me how they got saved and why they got saved? How did you come to your belief that you were truly saved? Truly loved by God?

 

[imsoconfused]

Paper money is indeed the mark of the beast, because of the fraud committed through it. It represents a false quantity, which is forbidden in the Torah.

““Yeah but i mean come on now ... this is also what the Torah says. Deuteromy 21:10-13 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God hands them over to you and you take some of them prisoner, and if you see a beautiful woman among the captives, desire her, and want to take her as your wife, you are to bring her into your house. She must shave her head, trim her nails, remove the clothes she was wearing when she was taken prisoner, live in your house, and mourn for her father and mother a full month. After that, you may have sexual relations with her and be her husband, and she will be your wife.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭21:10-13

 

[imsoconfused]

Their intention is good. They not really grasping or guilty of what you are proposing.

We should all want to intervene / sacrifice our spot for those in hell. This is Christianity 101.

If there were enough of us choosing to do this maybe he would be like oh snap guess I need to restart the entire heaven/hell idea now just like the oops earth was bad flood. Maybe we would just reset everything. It’s just a mess isn’t it? And I believed these things for so long too. I’m questioning everything.

 

[imsoconfused]

Which is also the place where the lake of lava will actually be, because just as the prophecy states, the furnace of God will be in Jerusalem, because the lava that will form there will come from Mount Zion, which will form at the second coming of the Messiah, in accordance to "whose fire is in Zion", and that lava will flow to the south, towards Negev, and to the north, to the valley of Hinnom, on the southern side of old Jerusalem, exactly as predicted by another prophet also, Ezekiel,

…The blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all surfaces from south to north shall be scorched by it. All flesh shall see that I Yehovah have kindled it; it shall not be quenched. (Ezekiel 20:47-48)

And it is in that place, where men around it will see dead bodies, who will die being thrown into that lake of lava, as prophesied by Isaiah,

And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind. (Isaiah 66:24)

It is time you people stopped believing the fantasies and myths you are being told by your churches, and truly understand these prophecies.

So, this life is a test? We are not allowed to enjoy any part of this life. Our loved ones, our body, our ability to breathe, we cannot enjoy or bask in the fact that we are alive but instead, we have to sacrifice literally everything and anything that we love in this “test” because this is all life actually is, a test to see if you love God more than any other “distraction?”

 

[povawiqe]

So, this life is a test? We are not allowed to enjoy any part of this life. Our loved ones, our body, our ability to breath, we cannot enjoy or bask in the fact that we are alive but instead, we have to sacrifice literally everything and anything that we love in this “test” because this is all life actually is, a test to see if you love God more than any other “distraction?”

The Messiah himself said,

So therefore every one of you who does not give up all that he himself possesses, is not able to be My disciple. (Luke 14:33)

Yeshuah answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21 [MODIFIED-NIV])

When Yeshuah heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:22)

Looking at the man, Yeshuah felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Mark 10:21)

Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. (Luke 12:33)

Which is what the believers did by the word of the apostles,

They sold their property and possessions and shared the money with those in need. (Acts 2:45)

that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. (Acts 4:34-35)

This hasn't changed. If you do this, you will save yourself the heartache of disobeying God by using mark of the beast.

 

[KingJ]

If there were enough of us choosing to do this maybe he would be like oh snap guess I need to restart the entire heaven/hell idea now just like the oops earth was bad flood. Maybe we would just reset everything. It’s just a mess isn’t it? And I believed these things for so long too. I’m questioning everything.

We must question everything. Just give God a fair trial. Look at scripture properly. Don't go with the popular God bashing currents based off half truths about Him and scripture.

It is not a mess. I believe you need to try better understand that God separates lambs and wolves.

I asked you earlier why you believe this person is in hell. Could you give that a stab please.

 

[KingJ]

So, this life is a test? We are not allowed to enjoy any part of this life. Our loved ones, our body, our ability to breathe, we cannot enjoy or bask in the fact that we are alive but instead, we have to sacrifice literally everything and anything that we love in this “test” because this is all life actually is, a test to see if you love God more than any other “distraction?”

Of course life is a test. God put the devil on earth. God put the tree of knowledge with Adam and Eve. God created a perfect environment for true free will. God wants to see whether we choose Him or not.

We just cant be naïve and ignorant of one important fact. Namely choosing God is not choosing ''this God'' over that God. Right religion verse wrong religion. Choosing God, is deciding to as He does, hate what is wicked and cling to what is good Rom 12:9. Repent of your sins truthfully Psalm 51:17 and take up your cross to fight the good fight Matt 16:24.

When we do this, He helps us. He reveals Himself to us. He grafts us into His family. He gives us faith to believe in Jesus 1 Cor 12:3. We are made new creations in Him 2 Cor 5:17.

 

[KingJ]

I got all kinds of off the wall answers to my other question... just try to answer me this, what does it mean to “believe in Him.” If all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of the Lord?

You have to understand the OT to understand that.

In the OT if we look at someone like David, we see a man of whom God says ''I can use Him for anything / He is a man after my heart''. He says this because David hated what is evil and clung to what was good. He was a good man. But yet he did not qualify to be with God as even though he was a good man, he was still guilty of sin. His greatest works would still be as filthy rags to God.

This does not mean God is a fool who cannot see the difference between a good person and a bad person. God placed all people in a waiting place called Abrahams Bosom. He placed a divide therein. The wicked on the one side, those who hate what is wicked on the other. David committed many sins, including mortal sins like murder and adultery. Yet he repented truthfully. God did not place Him with those that did not repent. But even though he repented, he could never qualify to be with God. Only the blood of Jesus can wash a sinner clean.

So, today living in AD, what we need to do is decide to follow Jesus. Decide to turn the left cheek. Pray for those who spitefully abuse us. Love our enemies. Give to the poor. When we do this and repent of our sins God responds in kind and gives us faith to believe in Jesus. As I said above, He makes us a new creation.