Why add twenty-seven?

[Bendito]

Isaiah wrote of one of several "anointed" people, for example namely the conqueror Cyrus in Isa 44:28-45:4, called by name by God before he was born, brought to power for the sake of Israel. That deliverer appeared later in Daniel. The Hebrew" ‏ "מָשִׁיחַ‎was translated to Aramaic "māshîaḥ", then Eng "anointed" and "Christ", "Immanuel". The man fulfilled that prophecy in Isaiah. The point is that the word we know as Messiah, as referring to the eternal heavenly Anointed who would establish a perfect society in the end for Israel, is in fact a concept established in the Tanakh, from Genesis onward. There were numerous candidates considered "anointed" saviors, such a David, but also priests, other kings, and non religious people. Two classes of messiahs existed among the Jews, flesh and spiritual. It wasn't until after the Maccabees that Israel suffered so much under the iron heel of Rome that they began hoping for a fleshly anointed savior, (a THE Messiah), a forerunner of the last on the list of Messiahs that would rescue them. God sent Jesus, but they rejected Him, so suffered beyond comprehension for two thousands of years.

The other prophecies related to Christianity, according to inspired knowledge from the Spirit, and historical facts such as from Josephus and other Church Fathers, those prophesies I wrote about above, are only possibly fulfilled line by line by Jesus of Nazarath, God's Anointed for rescue then and on to now and beyond, for he is the only one that remains, having risen from the grave. The last earthly accepted anointed one was the High Priest of Jesus' time, who failed as subordinate acting king of the Jews, out-performed by the Roman appointed king Herod. From then on a few activists resisting Rome were hoped to be messiahs until Israel was dispersed. upon the siege of Jerusalem in 70AD

Keep searching. I have not shown you the sole of my sandals.

Did you mention that Daniel Ch9 refers to the coming messiah?

 

[Dovegiven]

Did you mention that Daniel Ch9 refers to the coming messiah?

No, I figured that post I replied to required but one example. I assume also that long posts like mine are not read by but a few at most, thinking that if I posted more cases that would be a poor use of time. I'm glad you did take a look and came back with a good question. Once I start typing it's hard to decide where to cut it off

 

[Bendito]

No, I figured that post I replied to required but one example. I assume also that long posts like mine are not read by but a few at most, thinking that if I posted more cases that would be a poor use of time. I'm glad you did take a look and came back with a good question. Once I start typing it's hard to decide where to cut it off

Tell me about it. LOL I started out to write a short story and wrote a book.

 

[David Young]

Words which are translated or interpreted as 'messiah', either by Christians or Jews, often have more than one possible translation. Given that several individuals and groups are entitled 'anointed' at one point or another, I would be wary of saying that any of the writers of the Tanakh held the same belief in a messiah as the adherents of the various versions of Judaism around the first century. They may well have believed that the world to come featured a king on David's throne, but I'm not sure they saw him as quite the deliverer that Jews today see him. I rather thought all the trumpet-blowing was aimed at their God.

It was interesting to note that, when I asked a rabbi where the Tanakh described a messiah, the list of verses I was supplied with made no reference to the book of Daniel. I gather there is a popular hobby horse with numerology-obsessed Christians that supposedly connects chapter 9 with Jesus, although it is noteworthy that not even one writer of the New Testament does so.

 

[Bendito]

Words which are translated or interpreted as 'messiah', either by Christians or Jews, often have more than one possible translation. Given that several individuals and groups are entitled 'anointed' at one point or another, I would be wary of saying that any of the writers of the Tanakh held the same belief in a messiah as the adherents of the various versions of Judaism around the first century. They may well have believed that the world to come featured a king on David's throne, but I'm not sure they saw him as quite the deliverer that Jews today see him. I rather thought all the trumpet-blowing was aimed at their God.

It was interesting to note that, when I asked a rabbi where the Tanakh described a messiah, the list of verses I was supplied with made no reference to the book of Daniel. I gather there is a popular hobby horse with numerology-obsessed Christians that supposedly connects chapter 9 with Jesus, although it is noteworthy that not even one writer of the New Testament does so.

David...Comparing what the Christians believe to what the Jewish religion believes is like comparing the proverbial apples and oranges... I suggest you assume too much. Try going to the author of the faith, Jesus Himself, to get the answers. and stop criticizing things you know nothing about.
In the meanwhile.....have a good Christmas.

 

[Sue D.]

David Young -- Daniel chapter 9 -- Daniel is praying to the Lord God seeking Him by prayer and pleas for mercy. Confessing sins and wrong doings -- they had turned away from God's commandments -- that which had happened in Jerusalem. And then angel Gabriel brings an answer. And the seventy weeks are brought up. Now -- there are those who believe that all the 70 weeks have already taken place. Lots of Others believe that the last 'week' has yet to happen. A 'week' being 7 years. Which means that at some point in future history -- After the 'Church' has been taken up to Christ, that there will be 7 years of tribulation and mid-way through the Great Tribulation will begin.

Actually - it's Isaiah 7:14 that predicts the coming of the Messiah. The virgin Mary and all. And That is fulfilled in Matthew.

You've commented that you've read the Bible through twice and haven't found confirmation of the Messiah being Jesus Christ?! Could it be that your heart is not open to accepting it? A person can Also skim read through areas that they find hard to 'understand'. Or that which doesn't make sense isn't really 'read' or accepted.

And Merry Christmas today.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@David Young
You may not consider the NT the Word of God, then take it from an Historian that wrote this Gospel on the telling of this story if you will. Of two bearing witness of this Child we call Emmanuel.

And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she [was] a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served [God] with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. Luke 2:25-38

Feliz Navidad

 

[Quantrill]

Years ago I was involved in a debate concerning the Old Testament. I don't even remember what precisely the debate was over, but I decided I would call a few local Synagogues to help prove a certain point in the Old Testament.

To my surprise, those I spoke to did not believe themselves that the Old Testament was the Word of God. We as Christians think the Jews believe what we call the Old Testament is the Word of God, and reject the New Testament as the Word of God. But in reality, most Jews reject both as the Word of God.

But of course I should not have been surprised as Jesus said, "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" So the plain truth is, the Jews do not believe their own Old Testament or Tanakh.

Quantrill

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Quantrill
Brother it doesn't surprise me. Like those Jews you speak of, there also have those who profess to be Christians who don't believe that the NT is the inspired Word of God either. Instead look to include other documents to support their truth, in some sort of thought that in so doing their belief is confirmed. That is if they even go this far!

We just continue stepping forward in truth, proclaiming His Word that one day they might believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Thank-you for sharing your experience brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Sue D.]

@Quantrill -- then where do they believe the Torah came From? It's also called the Pentetuch isn't it? The first five books Of the Old Testament.

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill -- then where do they believe the Torah came From? It's also called the Pentetuch isn't it? The first five books Of the Old Testament.

It varies. They will believe it is the story that represents the origin of their people that has just been passed down. Or, that it contains a lot of good truth as to how they the Jews should live, but that doesn't mean it is the Word of God. Just as Christ4ever said, it is similar to what liberal christianity believes today about the Bible.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill
Brother it doesn't surprise me. Like those Jews you speak of, there also have those who profess to be Christians who don't believe that the NT is the inspired Word of God either. Instead look to include other documents to support their truth, in some sort of thought that in so doing their belief is confirmed. That is if they even go this far!

We just continue stepping forward in truth, proclaiming His Word that one day they might believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Thank-you for sharing your experience brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

You're quite welcome.

Quantrill

 

[Dovegiven]

Words which are translated or interpreted as 'messiah', either by Christians or Jews, often have more than one possible translation. Given that several individuals and groups are entitled 'anointed' at one point or another, I would be wary of saying that any of the writers of the Tanakh held the same belief in a messiah as the adherents of the various versions of Judaism around the first century. They may well have believed that the world to come featured a king on David's throne, but I'm not sure they saw him as quite the deliverer that Jews today see him. I rather thought all the trumpet-blowing was aimed at their God.

It was interesting to note that, when I asked a rabbi where the Tanakh described a messiah, the list of verses I was supplied with made no reference to the book of Daniel. I gather there is a popular hobby horse with numerology-obsessed Christians that supposedly connects chapter 9 with Jesus, although it is noteworthy that not even one writer of the New Testament does so.

God hid the concept of a man like Jesus coming as divine to redeem Israel, but ready to listen to prophets whose predictions extended beyond their lifetimes. The need for such a deliverer was seeded from their Babylonian captivity, then greatly enhanced by Roman era Hedonism. Jesus came at the peak of their troubles, a little before final destruction of Herods Temple.

I've already posted the Hebrew root words originating "Messiah" in Tanakh scriptures as referring to deliverers on a national level. The Jews just couldn't dare match that term to Jesus who didn't show the powers and world influence of historical conquerors, and not of the house of Levi.

 

[Dovegiven]

@Quantrill -- then where do they believe the Torah came From? It's also called the Pentetuch isn't it? The first five books Of the Old Testament.

Christians named the first 5 books (of the Tanakh, the Jewish "Torah"/ "Law"", the Penteteuch, after the Greek for "five books",

 

[Dovegiven]

Years ago I was involved in a debate concerning the Old Testament. I don't even remember what precisely the debate was over, but I decided I would call a few local Synagogues to help prove a certain point in the Old Testament.

To my surprise, those I spoke to did not believe themselves that the Old Testament was the Word of God. We as Christians think the Jews believe what we call the Old Testament is the Word of God, and reject the New Testament as the Word of God. But in reality, most Jews reject both as the Word of God.

But of course I should not have been surprised as Jesus said, "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" So the plain truth is, the Jews do not believe their own Old Testament or Tanakh.

Quantrill

You should expand your contacts to Orthodox Jews to get the facts about who believes the Torah is the oral/written word revealed by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai, which they say has never been broken. Some less traditional modern Jews do take a very modern opinion to the contrary.

 

[Quantrill]

You should expand your contacts to Orthodox Jews to get the facts about who believes the Torah is the oral/written word revealed by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai, which they say has never been broken. Some less traditional modern Jews do take a very modern opinion to the contrary.

Well, lets see. If I expand my contacts, will I find an orthodox Jew who says, yes, the TANAKH...the Old Testament, supports the belief that Jesus is the Messiah?

Do you 'Dovegiven' believe the Old Testament is the Word of God?

Quantrill

 

[Dovegiven]

Using only what is found in the Tanakh, please demonstrate that the twenty-seven books which make up the New Testament, and only those books, need to be added to what is called 'scripture' or 'the scriptures'.

So now I wish to answer why the New Testament was added. The Tanakh (Old Testament) laid out the route God took man to the brink of Jesus the Christ of God, while the New Testament told of The Path, The Way, Jesus, fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. The old wasn't enough to save man, while the new is all that will save man.

 

[Quantrill]

So now I wish to answer why the New Testament was added. The Tanakh (Old Testament) laid out the route God took man to the brink of Jesus the Christ of God, while the New Testament told of The Path, The Way, Jesus, fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. The old wasn't enough to save man, while the new is all that will save man.

So, no one under the Old was saved? That is disappointing.

Quantrill

 

[Dovegiven]

Well, lets see. If I expand my contacts, will I find an orthodox Jew who says, yes, the TANAKH...the Old Testament, supports the belief that Jesus is the Messiah?

Do you 'Dovegiven' believe the Old Testament is the Word of God?

Quantrill

It is the living word of God revealed of old. It served as my schoolmaster unto Jesus.

I gave out many Gideon New Testaments, and when restocking hotels took up any old ones with markings or torn pages. We began noticing comments like "Why was all that necessary?" "What led up to Jews hating Jesus so much, enough to murder him". "I hate Jews now more than I did before." Those were not our knowledge goals.

Reading the whole Bible doesn't usually leave people in such dismay. By the time they read Romans and Hebrews the whole story jells up. Reading the old leaves a person thirsty for solutions, wondering what God did with Israel besides current news that certainly doesn't answer that. Our local chapter at last upped our distributions to full testament, and we heard many reports of increased salvations, letters left in drawers, and calls to local Gideons. We left business cards in them with the idea of hoping for donations, but mostly got questions from Genesis to Revelation. Many a sinner stopped on a single verse in the OT, not having time to read on to find an answer. . God still speaks to people through whatever word he has already revealed.

 

[Dovegiven]

So, no one under the Old was saved? That is disappointing.

Quantrill

I didn't say that. A few were taken straight up by God bypassing passage below. Some were memorialized in Hebrews 11 on the basis of whether a person diligently seeks God. Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The problem was and is that a life of efforts to keep the law to avoid certain sins is not possible in itself towards pleasing God on an eternal basis. The terms of that covenant were solidly concerning 100% adherence to those laws and ordinances. Some folks got past that, seeking God with all their might, even though obviously guilty of not keeping the whole Law, like king David and his adultery/murder case with Bathsheba/Uriah. The Noahic covenant was far easier, but incomplete concerning the inner "heart" man, based on the conscience according to Paul, the only recorded divine covenant the gentiles were under.

Those below who met God's conditions of faith were met by Jesus during those 3 days of burial, who led that "captivity" back to the surface to be witnessed by the living (Mt 27:52-53), then on to Heaven with Him (Eph 4). That included the thief on the cross who already pleased God in his own crucifixion, thereby pleasing Jesus and God the Father.

From the time of Jesus onward salvation was offered under the new covenant of faith in Christ, the good news of Jesus the Christ of God. Whether a person could meet the old conditions of pleasing God by faith is between God and a person case by case. The scriptures conclude it is a terrible situation to fall into the hands of God (Heb 10:31), so we Christians emphasize letting Jesus be our High Priest intercessor, the supreme defense attorney. on the basis of his blood.