Grace vs the Law, debate #23,578

[regibassman57]

Yes..(Eph. 2:8) is clear that faith is not of yourself. It is the gift of God. Just like when Peter made his confession of faith when Jesus asked his disciples who do men say I am. (Matt. 16:13-17) "....And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed unto thee but my Father which is in heaven."

Did you catch that? Peter did not believe on his own. The Father revealed it to him to believe. Else he would not have believed. Our faith is a gift from God. Our ability to see Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour is a gift from God.

All the other you are using verses trying to say something....makes no sense.
Quantrill

Peter used his "faith" "the grain of a mustard seed" to believe and follow Christ. If Peter had the Gift of Faith from God, he would not have rejected and denied Christ saying - I know Him not (Joh. 18:15-27). Peter followed Christ before God opened his eyes, what faith did Peter use then?

Matthew 4:18
And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
Matthew 4:20
And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

The Gift of God is the Holy Ghost and Gift of faith is in the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

These are all Gifts of the Holy Ghost and the "Gift of Faith" is not received until a man receives the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another "faith" by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

This is why I posted Romans 5:2. It teaches a believer has access into Grace (where the gift of faith is) by faith. What faith was used to access the Grace of God where the Gift of faith is? The measure of faith is what Peter and his brother used to leave their nets and follow Christ.

Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God caused a donkey to "speak" without the donkey having the gift of faith. It's nothing for God to open Peter's understanding to who Christ is. The old covenant prophets also did miraculous things because God used them, but they didn't have the Gift of faith.

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

Yes..(Eph. 2:8) is clear that faith is not of yourself. It is the gift of God. Just like when Peter made his confession of faith when Jesus asked his disciples who do men say I am. (Matt. 16:13-17) "....And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed unto thee but my Father which is in heaven."

Did you catch that? Peter did not believe on his own. The Father revealed it to him to believe. Else he would not have believed. Our faith is a gift from God. Our ability to see Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour is a gift from God.

All the other you are using verses trying to say something....makes no sense.

Quantrill

The free gift is the work that Jesus did on the cross which the blood of animal could not do nor men. Man is commanded to exercise (practice/work-on) their faith, but no man could practice and work in anyway to be made free from sin.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Believers were washed freely from sin without any work (Rev. 1:5). The Gift of faith comes only through the Spirit. No where does scripture confirm your understanding. The free quickening is from sin as the gift.

Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the "gift by grace," which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the "free gift" is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace (free gift) through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

If you want to admit that God included the blood sacrifices because He knew Israel could not keep the ten commandments, then fine. We agree. That is what I have been saying.

I have given you Scripture that proves Israel could not keep the law verbatim. "Behold the blood". Remember.

If you can't keep the law perfectly, you can't keep the law. Christ allows us to grow in grace. The law does not.

Quantrill

We don't agree and why would I admit a lie? Nowhere does God teach Israel could not keep the law before or after the blood sacrifice of the Mosaic law. If one man could keep God's commandments, before the Mosaic Law, any other man could keep the Ten Commandments. Abraham kept the law, which were the Ten Commandments. We know the Ten were making men accountable because the Ten are everlasting and they are the characteristics of God. That's why Joseph said to the Potipher's wife, "how can I do this thing and "sin" against The Lord." This is also why God cursed Pharaoh when he desired Abraham's wife Sarah. Scriptures teach even the Gentiles which have not the law, do by nature what is written in the law (Rom. 2:14,15).

I showed you - before Israel received the covenant of the Ten Commandments, they had commandments and laws that they "REFUSED" to obey. It wasn't that they could not keep them (before blood sacrifices) scripture says they refused to keep them. It was actually God that said they refuse to keep His laws and commandments.

Exodus 16:28
And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Abraham kept the God's commandments and His laws.

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The blood sacrifices started with Adam. Blood sacrifices are a type of grace which covered the sins of the people that they may have fellowship with God. As I wrote before, the whole law is the sacrificial law, ten commandments, ceremonial law and the judicial law. If Israel failed in one part of the law, they could make up for it through sacrifices and it would be accounted to them as they kept the law. Blood sacrifices is a part of the law regardless of when they were added.

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

God's righteousness has nothing to do with it. Sounds good though. That God is no respecter of persons sounds good also, but has nothing to do with it. The commandment made Adam and Eve responsible. It made sin possible on their part. God knew they would fall. When God asked, "Adam, where art thou"? Do you think He didn't know where Adam and Eve were and their condition?

Quantrill

God's Righteousness has everything to do with it? God's word will not come back unto Him void. If God told a man to do something they could not do, it would make God a liar because His word would not be accomplished. Jesus re-did what Adam was suppose to do that God's word would not return void. Jesus brought everything back to full circle, as it should have been with Adam and Eve. The commandments made Adam and Eve responsible true, but it wasn't meant reveal sin in them; because they were perfect. The Mosaic Law was given to reveal sin in man. Two completely different purposes for the commandments. God used the tree to prove Adam because He is a God that proves those that are His. I'm pretty sure I've given you scriptures on this fact also.

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

Which means God gave the law knowing Israel could not keep the law, which is the need for the blood sacrifices.

If you want to say God gave the law knowing Israel could not keep it and so provided the blood sacrifices as part of the law, for their sin, then fine. I agree. But that is what I have been saying. God knew they could not keep his law, so behold the blood.

Quantrill

As I look back over this post you seem to be implying Israel could keep the law with the blood sacrifices added. Am I correct?

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,


As I look back over this post you seem to be implying Israel could keep the law with the blood sacrifices added. Am I correct?

I am not implying, I have been clear in what I said. Just read it.

Concerning your statement in post #84, that God would be a liar in giving Adam and Eve a command He knew they could not keep, that is not true. It just makes Adam and Eve responsible as I have already said.

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

I am not implying, I have been clear in what I said. Just read it.

Concerning your statement in post #84, that God would be a liar in giving Adam and Eve a command He knew they could not keep, that is not true. It just makes Adam and Eve responsible as I have already said.

Quantrill

When God speaks something in a command or declares something, it is His intent for it to be accomplished because He does not speak empty words. God does not speak in vain as men do. If God says something it must be done, it will be done; and if it's not done according to His full intent, He will do it. This is what God did with Adam when he didn't fulfill God's perfect will in the Garden. God commanded and declared His will, and came and fulfilled His word by doing it Himself as the second Adam. God makes His word good. God magnifies His word above His name. If God's word doesn't come to pass, His name is nothing. The covenant that God established with Adam was an everlasting covenant, this is why Jesus came and fulfilled it and restored the the everlasting covenant between God and man. The everlasting covenant was, "let us make man in our image and likeness;" and God did it. God's words are spoken in truth.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:
hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Psalms 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

You've been clear to me in saying Israel could not keep the law. Adam could not keep the law; and believer cannot keep the law. But you have never showed me scripture that said, "Israel could not keep the law." you are interpreting the scriptures to say that in your mind; but scripture does not say it. I showed you where scripture said Israel served God; meaning kept His law. A man cannot serve God without keeping His law.

2 Kings 18:3
And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, according to all that David his father did.
2 Kings 18:5
He trusted in the Lord God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that were before him.
2 Kings 18:6
For he clave to the Lord, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the Lord commanded Moses.

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,


When God speaks something in a command or declares something, it is His intent for it to be accomplished because He does not speak empty words. God does not speak in vain as men do. If God says something it must be done, it will be done; and if it's not done according to His full intent, He will do it. This is what God did with Adam when he didn't fulfill God's perfect will in the Garden. God commanded and declared His will, and came and fulfilled His word by doing it Himself as the second Adam. God makes His word good. God magnifies His word above His name. If God's word doesn't come to pass, His name is nothing. The covenant that God established with Adam was an everlasting covenant, this is why Jesus came and fulfilled it and restored the the everlasting covenant between God and man. The everlasting covenant was, "let us make man in our image and likeness;" and God did it. God's words are spoken in truth.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:
hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Psalms 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

You've been clear to me in saying Israel could not keep the law. Adam could not keep the law; and believer cannot keep the law. But you have never showed me scripture that said, "Israel could not keep the law." you are interpreting the scriptures to say that in your mind; but scripture does not say it. I showed you where scripture said Israel served God; meaning kept His law. A man cannot serve God without keeping His law.

2 Kings 18:3
And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, according to all that David his father did.
2 Kings 18:5
He trusted in the Lord God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that were before him.
2 Kings 18:6
For he clave to the Lord, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the Lord commanded Moses.

Sorry. Jesus Christ was never the Second Adam. Check your Scripture. If you can't get that right, where else do you run amiss ?

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

Sorry. Jesus Christ was never the Second Adam. Check your Scripture. If you can't get that right, where else do you run amiss ?

If there was a First Adam and there was a last Adam it makes for two Adams. I checked my scriptures to makes sure; you should do the same and stop talking and start loving and learning.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,


If there was a First Adam and there was a last Adam it makes for two Adams. I checked my scriptures to makes sure; you should do the same and stop talking and start loving and learning.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Two Adams doesn't make Christ the Second Adam, which is what you said. Glad you corrected yourself. Christ is always the Last Adam. Never the Second Adam. He is the Second Man, but not the Second Adam.

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill, Post #69
You said: If you want to say God gave the law knowing Israel could not keep it and so provided the blood sacrifices as part of the law, for their sin, then fine. I agree. But that is what I have been saying. God knew they could not keep his law, so behold the blood.

I would like to add a little more clarification to why the blood was added.

The blood entered initially under the Mosaic Law to established the covenant between God and man. Not because Israel could or could not keep the law.

Hebrews 9:17
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Hebrews 9:18
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Hebrews 9:19
For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Hebrews 9:20
Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Hebrews 9:21
Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Would you agree?

 

[Dave M]

Two Adams doesn't make Christ the Second Adam, which is what you said. Glad you corrected yourself. Christ is always the Last Adam. Never the Second Adam. He is the Second Man, but not the Second Adam.

Quantrill

one Adam came from the ground and Christ came from above hardly the same in any regard IMO

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill, Post #69
You said: If you want to say God gave the law knowing Israel could not keep it and so provided the blood sacrifices as part of the law, for their sin, then fine. I agree. But that is what I have been saying. God knew they could not keep his law, so behold the blood.

I would like to add a little more clarification to why the blood was added.

The blood entered initially under the Mosaic Law to established the covenant between God and man. Not because Israel could or could not keep the law.

Hebrews 9:17
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Hebrews 9:18
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Hebrews 9:19
For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Hebrews 9:20
Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Hebrews 9:21
Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Would you agree?

Why was blood 'initially' presented to establish the Covenant under the Mosaic Law? Why was blood required to cover Adam and Eve when they sinned instead of the fig leaves?

God did not just choose 'blood' out of the air for no reason to establish His covenant. The blood represented a substitute. A life for a life. For the life of the flesh is in the blood. (Lev. 17:11)

The substitute was necessary because they could not do what God required of them. They foolishly did not recognize this and said concerning the Law, "...Alll that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient." (EX. 24:7) To which Moses replied, "...Behold the blood...." (Ex. 24:8) As I said before, because they are going to need it.

Why do they need the blood? Because they cannot keep the Law of God.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

one Adam came from the ground and Christ came from above hardly the same in any regard IMO

I have no idea what you are saying here.

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

Two Adams doesn't make Christ the Second Adam, which is what you said. Glad you corrected yourself. Christ is always the Last Adam. Never the Second Adam. He is the Second Man, but not the Second Adam.

one Adam came from the ground and Christ came from above hardly the same in any regard IMO

We are not talking about in spiritual position, we are talking about a fleshly order of manifestation on Earth.

Philippians 2:7
But (Jesus) made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom. 8:3). Until Adam, there were no fleshly beings ever referred to as the "First Adam. Jesus has always been "The Word of God " - never referred to in the flesh as the last Adam until He was manifested in the flesh to be a servant for man and referred to as the second man from Heaven. Jesus is the "SECOND" fleshly being created of God without any involvement of man that is referred to as Adam. This makes Jesus the second and last Adam created directly by God as scripture teaches; not the first. Anything after "the first" of anything we can count and consider in a consecutive order. Jesus is referred to as the "last" Adam making him the "second" Adam created in the flesh by God.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

What is the "SECOND" man created on Earth referred to in name in this context?

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

Why was blood 'initially' presented to establish the Covenant under the Mosaic Law? Why was blood required to cover Adam and Eve when they sinned instead of the fig leaves?

God did not just choose 'blood' out of the air for no reason to establish His covenant. The blood represented a substitute. A life for a life. For the life of the flesh is in the blood. (Lev. 17:11)

The substitute was necessary because they could not do what God required of them. They foolishly did not recognize this and said concerning the Law, "...Alll that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient." (EX. 24:7) To which Moses replied, "...Behold the blood...." (Ex. 24:8) As I said before, because they are going to need it.

Why do they need the blood? Because they cannot keep the Law of God.

Quantrill

The blood was initiated with Israel the same reason it was required for Adam and Eve. The blood was required for Adam and Eve, "AFTER" they sinned, in order for them to have any kind of a relationship with God. This was the same reason the blood was added in the Mosaic Covenant. All men inherited Adam's sin and needed a blood sacrifice to even stand before God. This was not because they could or could not keep God's laws.

The blood was initially needed to cleanse man in order for a covenant to be established between God and man because man was unclean because of Adam's transgression. The blood was initially necessary because Adam "chose" not to do what God commanded him to do in his spiritual (mental) and physical "PERFECTION" - created in God's image and likeness. By you saying Adam could not do as God commanded him, you are saying God created Adam without the capability to keep His commandment. Adam was created in God's perfect image and likeness by God Himself without flaws.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was "very good." And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Before God could impute or account Israel's sins against them, a law had to enter which made them accountable for their sins. It was the Judicial Law (a carnal law) which made Israel accountable for their sins because it punished them. Jesus was not made after the law of a carnal commandment, but He fulfilled the carnal commandments and then took them out of the way - making an end of them. These carnal commandments are not the Ten Commandments which gives understanding of the eternal character of Jehovah God. As Adam, Israel and born again believers can and do keep God's commandments, the blood sacrifices always gave and gives mercy and grace for believers to practice and learn obedience unto Jehovah God.

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

Why was blood 'initially' presented to establish the Covenant under the Mosaic Law? Why was blood required to cover Adam and Eve when they sinned instead of the fig leaves?

God did not just choose 'blood' out of the air for no reason to establish His covenant. The blood represented a substitute. A life for a life. For the life of the flesh is in the blood. (Lev. 17:11)

The substitute was necessary because they could not do what God required of them. They foolishly did not recognize this and said concerning the Law, "...Alll that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient." (EX. 24:7) To which Moses replied, "...Behold the blood...." (Ex. 24:8) As I said before, because they are going to need it.

Why do they need the blood? Because they cannot keep the Law of God.

Quantrill

You said of the scriptures below: To which Moses replied, "...Behold the blood...."

What were the words of the covenant causing Moses to say, "behold the blood?" (Ex. 20: - 24: 3-6 gives the answer). Did it have anything to do with Israel saying, "all the Lord commanded we will do and be obedient?" NO! Did it have to do with Israel being able to keep the commandments of God? No! The purpose of Moses' statement, "behold the blood" was as I stated in post #91 (Heb. 9:17-22). It was to establish the covenant between God and Israel (Ex.24:8).

Exodus 24:7
And he (Moses) took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exodus 24:8
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the "BLOOD OF THE COVENANT" which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.

The words that Moses spoke were of the covenant between God and Israel. Nowhere does it allude to Israel being able to keep the law or not keep the law (regardless of what they say). In one of my post to you, I said your question should be, "could Israel keep the law perfectly?" but you are satisfied to debate if Israel could keep the law or not. If you asked the question if all Israel as a whole could keep the law "perfectly" I would say no. But as long as you desire to debate if Israel could keep the law in any form without definition, I will always respond yes. This is because scripture teaches Israel served God and certain people did keep the law as I've posted.

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,




We are not talking about in spiritual position, we are talking about a fleshly order of manifestation on Earth.

Philippians 2:7
But (Jesus) made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom. 8:3). Until Adam, there were no fleshly beings ever referred to as the "First Adam. Jesus has always been "The Word of God " - never referred to in the flesh as the last Adam until He was manifested in the flesh to be a servant for man and referred to as the second man from Heaven. Jesus is the "SECOND" fleshly being created of God without any involvement of man that is referred to as Adam. This makes Jesus the second and last Adam created directly by God as scripture teaches; not the first. Anything after "the first" of anything we can count and consider in a consecutive order. Jesus is referred to as the "last" Adam making him the "second" Adam created in the flesh by God.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

What is the "SECOND" man created on Earth referred to in name in this context?

Scripture is clear that Christ is the Last Adam and never the Second Adam. He is the Second Man, but the Last Adam. It draws this distinction for a reason. Adam is the First Adam in that he is the first representative of the human race. His race is represented in him. (1 Cor. 15:22) "For as in Adam all die,...." Jesus Christ is the Last Adam in that His race is also represented in Him. (1 Cor. 15:22) "...even so in Christ shall all be made alive." He is 'Last' instead of 'Second' because there will be no more representatives of the human race. When you say 'second' you imply a third, fourth, etc. etc.

The 'Second Man' speaks to God keeping the count of only those who are of Him. And Adam was the first man of God. (Luke 3:38) "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. " And all of those who are sons of God or 'of God' after Adam are counted only in Christ and so 'after' Christ. This makes Christ the 'Second Man'. Because there will be many more sons of God, a third and fourth, etc., thus Christ is called the Second Man. And somewhere in that count every believer is found.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,


The blood was initiated with Israel the same reason it was required for Adam and Eve. The blood was required for Adam and Eve, "AFTER" they sinned, in order for them to have any kind of a relationship with God. This was the same reason the blood was added in the Mosaic Covenant. All men inherited Adam's sin and needed a blood sacrifice to even stand before God. This was not because they could or could not keep God's laws.

The blood was initially needed to cleanse man in order for a covenant to be established between God and man because man was unclean because of Adam's transgression. The blood was initially necessary because Adam "chose" not to do what God commanded him to do in his spiritual (mental) and physical "PERFECTION" - created in God's image and likeness. By you saying Adam could not do as God commanded him, you are saying God created Adam without the capability to keep His commandment. Adam was created in God's perfect image and likeness by God Himself without flaws.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was "very good." And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Before God could impute or account Israel's sins against them, a law had to enter which made them accountable for their sins. It was the Judicial Law (a carnal law) which made Israel accountable for their sins because it punished them. Jesus was not made after the law of a carnal commandment, but He fulfilled the carnal commandments and then took them out of the way - making an end of them. These carnal commandments are not the Ten Commandments which gives understanding of the eternal character of Jehovah God. As Adam, Israel and born again believers can and do keep God's commandments, the blood sacrifices always gave and gives mercy and grace for believers to practice and learn obedience unto Jehovah God.

Yes, I am saying Adam and Eve could not keep the Law of God. And that was just one simple command. God knew this as I said, as Jesus Christ is slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8) Adam and Eve were created perfect and without sin, but their condition in the garden is not what God was after. Thus He gave a law, that they could not keep.

So, any law or covenant from God will always be based on blood as man cannot keep his part. (Ex. 24:7-8) says just that. Moses read the terms of the covenant. The people agreed to the terms. Thus Moses says 'Behold the blood of the covenant'. The blood is necessary only if you fail to do your part. But they could not keep the law, thus the blood was necessary and will always be necessary.

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

Scripture is clear that Christ is the Last Adam and never the Second Adam. He is the Second Man, but the Last Adam. It draws this distinction for a reason. Adam is the First Adam in that he is the first representative of the human race. His race is represented in him. (1 Cor. 15:22) "For as in Adam all die,...." Jesus Christ is the Last Adam in that His race is also represented in Him. (1 Cor. 15:22) "...even so in Christ shall all be made alive." He is 'Last' instead of 'Second' because there will be no more representatives of the human race. When you say 'second' you imply a third, fourth, etc. etc.

The 'Second Man' speaks to God keeping the count of only those who are of Him. And Adam was the first man of God. (Luke 3:38) "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. " And all of those who are sons of God or 'of God' after Adam are counted only in Christ and so 'after' Christ. This makes Christ the 'Second Man'. Because there will be many more sons of God, a third and fourth, etc., thus Christ is called the Second Man. And somewhere in that count every believer is found.

Quantrill

I understand the points you're making, but you are missing my point. God "ONLY" created "TWO" being without the involvement of man that is "referred to" as Adam - a 1st and a 2nd in this life on Earth.

This is the time one of the moderators will come in and shut this conversation down because it's becoming foolish; so I'll take heed and end it here. It was a good discussion. Thanks