Grace vs the Law, debate #23,578

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,

Yes, I am saying Adam and Eve could not keep the Law of God. And that was just one simple command. God knew this as I said, as Jesus Christ is slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8) Adam and Eve were created perfect and without sin, but their condition in the garden is not what God was after. Thus He gave a law, that they could not keep.

So, any law or covenant from God will always be based on blood as man cannot keep his part. (Ex. 24:7-8) says just that. Moses read the terms of the covenant. The people agreed to the terms. Thus Moses says 'Behold the blood of the covenant'. The blood is necessary only if you fail to do your part. But they could not keep the law, thus the blood was necessary and will always be necessary.

Quantrill

Because you have no scriptural evidence of your claim Adam and Eve could not keep God's law/commandment given to them, this conversation can also go round and round. God said He created man (Adam and Eve) in His image and likeness, and He created them in His own view "VERY" good. This tells me Adam and Eve could do God's will. God breathed into Adam His perfect being and will when Adam became a living soul. Every spiritual aspect of God He breathed into Adam was perfect.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What you are saying is though Adam and Eve knew God's word and His commandment not to eat of the tree, God didn't create them with the ability to obey. Once again because you have no scriptural facts and only carnal thoughts with no proof, it's been enjoyable but where there is no facts on your part, a person can only read vain statements without true understanding. So God Bless and I'll catch you on another post. If you post proof of your claims I'll continue.

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,


I understand the points you're making, but you are missing my point. God "ONLY" created "TWO" being without the involvement of man that is "referred to" as Adam - a 1st and a 2nd in this life on Earth.

This is the time one of the moderators will come in and shut this conversation down because it's becoming foolish; so I'll take heed and end it here. It was a good discussion. Thanks

I understood your point. But your point was wrong, as is shown in Scripture. Jesus Christ is never the Second Adam. He is the Last Adam.

What is foolish about being Scripturally correct? Or are you wanting to influence someone to shut this discussion down because you have been proven wrong?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,


Because you have no scriptural evidence of your claim Adam and Eve could not keep God's law/commandment given to them, this conversation can also go round and round. God said He created man (Adam and Eve) in His image and likeness, and He created them in His own view "VERY" good. This tells me Adam and Eve could do God's will. God breathed into Adam His perfect being and will when Adam became a living soul. Every spiritual aspect of God He breathed into Adam was perfect.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What you are saying is though Adam and Eve knew God's word and His commandment not to eat of the tree, God didn't create them with the ability to obey. Once again because you have no scriptural facts and only carnal thoughts with no proof, it's been enjoyable but where there is no facts on your part, a person can only read vain statements without true understanding. So God Bless and I'll catch you on another post. If you post proof of your claims I'll continue.

I have given you proofs already.

Whether you continue or not makes no difference to me.

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,
I'm was meditating on something and I'm curious to know what your thoughts are about God repenting that He made man. I'm not going to debate you on it, or even reply; just looking for another view.

Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:6
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Genesis 6:7
And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,
I'm was meditating on something and I'm curious to know what your thoughts are about God repenting that He made man. I'm not going to debate you on it, or even reply; just looking for another view.

Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:6
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Genesis 6:7
And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

If you don't want to debate or reply, then you really don't want to know. Do you?

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,
I am one man with a one-sided understanding of certain information I study. If I ask another's opinion it gives me a broader view of information to consider. I don't think everything requires a debate to know something. However, I said I'm not going to debate you because I'm just looking out for you.

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill,
I am one man with a one-sided understanding of certain information I study. If I ask another's opinion it gives me a broader view of information to consider. I don't think everything requires a debate to know something. However, I said I'm not going to debate you because I'm just looking out for you.

How are you looking out for me?

Quantrill

 

[regibassman57]

@Quantrill,
You must really enjoy battle... Are you desiring to remain in an opposing position with me contrary to seeking reasoning about scripture in peace.

If you don't want to debate or reply, then you really don't want to know. Do you?

Quantrill

 

[Christ4Ever]

Okay now.
I believe this is as far as we get now on this one brothers!

Great back and forth, with Scripture, but has started to turn away from that into a different conversation of "Why you don't see it my way?".
So, let's break for a while, and I'll reopen it later.

God Bless you Brothers.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

 

[Christ4Ever]

It's been about two months and I hope that enough time with prayer and study has been done so that this thread can be reopened to a discussion that can be of benefit to all.
Let's just remember that we are communicating with Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

 

[Theo102]

In the Bible the grace vs law debate played out between James and Paul.

Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

This can be traced back to Paul's test.

Acts 21
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that theymay shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly,and keepest the law.

Acts 21
30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band,that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.

Paul lied his way out when he was brought before the Sanhedrin because of the riot:

Acts 23
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the sonof a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and theSadducees: and the multitude was divided.

Paul also lied about it to King Agrippa:

Acts 26
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all thecoasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill [me].

 

[Theo102]

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,The just shall live by faith.
Romans 1:17

Habakuk 2
4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible
Rom 1:17 The righteous will live by faith. Paul quotes Hab 2:4; the Hebrew reads “The righteous one will live by his faith,” whereas the Greek translation better known to Paul’s audience reads “by my faith.” Paul, perhaps preferring not to take time to explain the Hebrew text’s divergence from the more familiar form, omits the pronoun. The Dead Sea Scrolls apply Hab 2:4 in a similar way.

 

[Hekuran]

In the Bible the grace vs law debate played out between James and Paul.

Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

This can be traced back to Paul's test.

Acts 21
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that theymay shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly,and keepest the law.

Acts 21
30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band,that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.

Paul lied his way out when he was brought before the Sanhedrin because of the riot:

Acts 23
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the sonof a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and theSadducees: and the multitude was divided.

Paul also lied about it to King Agrippa:

Acts 26
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all thecoasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill [me].

I didn't spot any lie in the passages you quoted. What did Paul say that was untrue?

 

[Theo102]

I didn't spot any lie in the passages you quoted. What did Paul say that was untrue?

"of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question."

"For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple"

 

[Hekuran]

Paul's telling the truth here.

 

[Theo102]

Paul's telling the truth here.

No, the reason that he was brought before the Sanhedrin was that he was accused by the Jews of Asia of teaching against the law. If the Sanhedrin knew thet Paul, as a Pharisee, was teaching against the law then they would have to rule against him.

Paul was at the temple to undergo a test to determine if he kept the law or not:

Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 21:23-24

The complaint of the Jews of Asia developed into a riot:

Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Acts 21:28

And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.
Acts 21:33

The accusation made by the Jews of Asia is born out by Paul's letters:

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:4

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Galatians 3:11

 

[Bendito]

So Where does the Bible say that we do not have to obey the law? I don't remember.

 

[Theo102]

So Where does the Bible say that we do not have to obey the law? I don't remember.

In the Greek language lawlessness is called anomia.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity(anomia).
Matthew 23:27-28

 

[Bendito]

In Greek language lawlessness is called anomia.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity(anomia).
Matthew 23:27-28

Thank yu Theo...But Where does the Bible say that we do not have to obey the law?

 

[Theo102]

Thank yu Theo...But Where does the Bible say that we do not have to obey the law?

It's part of Paul's teachings.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:1-2

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1 Corinthians 9:20-21

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30