God’s ways are not our ways - Don’t read into the Bible your own desires and sensibilities!

[Victor Van Heerden]

This is false teaching. It does not matter who teaches it.

You have quoted WL Craig before. So now he does not suite you? One of the greatest Christian philosopher/apologist on the planet?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

genocide and our use of it and for some, the abhorrence of it, is mans way of playing God, the God we ought not restrict to our ways.

Cannot disagree therefore i say amen. And bless you to.

 

[Br. Bear]

A commandment to kill all the men in a conquered city and to seize the women, children and livestock as plunder....? Is that a modern or antiquated sensibility?

and greetings once more,

Either way, those who are not believers and instead are into evolution and survival of the fittest, etc, should have no problems with that sort of thing. And to take it a bit further, with millions of years to come to now (as the evolutionists like to espouse [or is it espout? ] ) the sort of antiquity being raised here is rather futile, to say the least, don't you think? Or is that not being sensible?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

You have quoted WL Craig before. ... One of the greatest Christian philosopher/apologist on the planet?

Greetings,

who is WL Craig, besides from being Mrs Craig's son?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

.... And bless you to.

thank you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Nope - the lost are separated from God now. Their sin separates them from God.

That is not entirely true. There is Godliness in many things currently on earth. The Holy Spirit is here. Christians are here. Children, animals and a warm sun.

The wicked like earth. A pedophile has children to think of and molest. In hell, he won't. This isolation from God and the saints is ''why'' they weep and gnash their teeth. Please meditate on Luke 13:28.

 

[KingJ]

Ad hominem. ( Ad hominem, short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.'

The Bible is not an atheist site.

And it praises and glorifies God not bashes him.

God never forbade it only when it was offered to foreign gods. Child sacrifice was something that several Biblical people either did, or assisted others in doing so. Child sacrifice to foreign gods was so prevalent that it’s named as one of the major reasons why God sent the Babylonians to conquer Israel and forcibly take many of them as captives 2 Kings 17:16-18 They forsook all the commands of the Lord their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal. 17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire.

Please re-read the link I provided. It proves you are cherry picking that particular verse.

I have frequented atheist forums in the past. I just go too tired of trying to help people read properly. It seems some people are hell bent on cherry picking verses that appear to incriminate God. Is this going to be your legacy here?

I repeat and you have not attended to my comment properly 'WHY WAS ABRAHAM NOT MORALLY REPULSED BY THE COMMAND TO SACRIFICE ISSAC?"

Well we know from Abraham's interrogation of God in Gen 18 on the destruction of Sodom, that he ''WAS'' a good man. He did not want to see even the wicked perish. ""God will you spare the place if there are ten righteous people in it''. God ''yes''. Gen 18:32. IE Abraham = good man. God = good God. Clearly Sodom was beyond hope, not even ten righteous.

So, clearly Abraham had faith '''IN''' God's goodness. Not simply faith in God's existence.

As I have said before, Abraham was not morally repulsed as He knew God. He knew this exceedingly good God, had one hell of a reason for asking something so extreme of him.

You are trying to insinuate that God is demented and Abraham just following because ''God'' is in charge. You know, I know, everyone knows that Abraham could have said ''NO'' God. 'I will not take my son there for a sacrifice'. God would have perhaps sent ten plagues to Abraham? Scripture would have recorded that God is ''crazy'' and Abraham a very good man who challenged this ''crazy'' God. That is what you want to prove isn't it?

But you are not grasping a greater truth about God. God tests His people. He does not put any of us through something we cannot handle. He knew Abraham's faithfulness to Him would survive that test. Same reason He tested Job. Same reason you and I are not testing as Abraham and Job were. God has to go through the motions it seems of the actual test. It is not good enough that He knows they will pass the test. This is a discussion for your 'free will' thread though.

God would not have sent plagues on Abraham though if he never obeyed. God only does that with the wicked. His children who disobey, well He wouldn't test them such that they would. We can all grasp the level of dedication Abraham and Job have / had to God.

 

[KingJ]

LOL. Did you read that statement. Read it properly because that is exactly what you are doing.

No I am not. You said:

''He created the mighty, immense, vast universe. Of trillions of solar systems like ours. He rules not only on earth but everywhere in a forty billion light years across creation. He has gazillions of orders and angels to command in order to run the universe.'

This is all your assumption. What I said was the devil would push a belief in the direction of us being insignificant to God. That is a fact.

 

[KingJ]

Nope - like genocide is against the Geneva convention. And the Israelite committed it under instructions from God many times before it became unfashionable due to modern sensibilities. ( Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people in whole or in part. The hybrid word "genocide" is a combination of the Greek word génos and the Latin suffix -cide. )

It is not due to ''modern sensibilities''. It is due to there being ''more then ten righteous in a city'' Gen 18:32.

God's wrath on the Canaanites was held back for a long time. Only when their sin was full measure did genocide occur. IE, there were likely less then ten righteous.

The bible talks of God's wrath coming on the earth very soon. I have discussed in your free will thread. There is a necessary balance of good and evil. When evil oversteps its boundaries, God's wrath is not far behind. So, at 60 years of age, there is a good chance you will see further genocide type wrath from God. No ''modern sensibility'' change according scripture.

God has been able to maintain a satisfactory balance of good and evil in most towns and societies since Christianity started.

 

[KingJ]

You have quoted WL Craig before. So now he does not suite you? One of the greatest Christian philosopher/apologist on the planet?

I agree with a lot he teaches. You found a statement I did not agree with. I explained why, with scripture.

 

[KingJ]

Deuteronomy 20:13-15

13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

A commandment to kill all the men in a conquered city and to seize the women, children and livestock as plunder....? Is that a modern or antiquated sensibility?

How did you miss verse 12? Deut 20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it

''Seize the woman and children''. Are you implying the Hebrews would 'rape' and pillage? Hebrews who stone each other to death for almost any sexual indecency.

 

[KingJ]

Nope he should not have been especially because of his era and area where he lived. Sacrificing to God was a common practise. And the greater the sacrifice the better.

Please read this link I gave earlier. This statement is pure heresy.

God Didn’t Command Child Sacrifice | Stand to Reason

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

As I have said before, Abraham was not morally repulsed as He knew God. He knew this exceedingly good God, had one hell of a reason for asking something so extreme of him.

If God asked you to sacrifice to Him on of your kids (assuming you have any) that was the apple of your eye - would you do it?

What does this verse explain to us? Ezekiel 20:25-26 "' Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.”

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

How did you miss verse 12? span.bible { /*color: #D97070;*/ font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400; } span.bible a { /*color: #D97070;*/ /*background-color: #FFE9E9;*/ padding: 1px 4px; border-radius: 1px; } Deut 20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it

Irrelevant. Mohammed did the same when he spread Islam make peace or feel the sword. Genocide is genocide.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

who is WL Craig, besides from being Mrs Craig's son?

William Lane Craig is an American analytic philosopher and Christian theologian. He holds faculty positions at Talbot School of Theology, and Houston Baptist University. Craig has developed and defended the Kalam Cosmological Argument for the existence of God. He also focused in his published work on a historical argument for the resurrection of Jesus. His research on divine aseity and Platonism culminated with his book God Over All. He has also debated the existence of God with public figures such as Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Lawrence M. Krauss[1] and A. C. Grayling.[7] Craig established and runs the online apologetics ministry ReasonableFaith.org. ( from wiki)

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Please read this link I gave earlier. This statement is pure heresy.

Nowhere in that link does it say that child sacrifice was not practised by people of that time and place. Google Child sacrifice

Psalm 106:37 "Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto false gods"

1 Cor 20:20 " No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God. And I do not want you to be participants with demons."


Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in this way, because they practice for their gods every abomination which the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed to demons, not to God, to gods they had not known, to newly arrived gods, which your fathers did not fear.

2 Kings 16:3
Instead, he walked in the way of the kings of Israel and even sacrificed his son in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.

2 Kings 17:17
They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire and practiced divination and soothsaying. They devoted themselves to doing evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger.

Rabbi A.I. Kook, (speaking on the sacrifice of Issac by Abraham) the first Chief Rabbi of Israel, stressed that the climax of the story, commanding Abraham not to sacrifice Isaac, is the whole point: to put an end to the ritual of child sacrifice, which contradicts the morality of a perfect and giving (not taking) monotheistic God. and according to Irving Greenberg ( Irving Greenberg, also known as Yitz Greenberg, is a Jewish-American scholar and author who identifies as a Modern Orthodox rabbi. ) the story of the binding of Isaac, symbolises the prohibition to worship God by human sacrifices, at a time when human sacrifices were the norm worldwide.

 

[KingJ]

Irrelevant. Mohammed did the same when he spread Islam make peace or feel the sword. Genocide is genocide.

Not the same thing.

Mohammed would attack good and bad people. God used genocide by His people and great disasters to eradicate wicked only societies. It is apples and oranges.

Have you read about the wickedness of the Amalekites?

 

[KingJ]

Nowhere in that link does it say that child sacrifice was not practised by people of that time and place.

Yes it does. A quote from the link:

Exodus 13:12-134, I don't know how that could be clearer (and it is repeated again in Exodus 34:20: You shall redeem all the firstborn of your sons). They are to sacrifice the animals, but redeem the sons. It helps to understand why God commanded this, which is explained in the verses immediately following,

 

[KingJ]

If God asked you to sacrifice to Him on of your kids (assuming you have any) that was the apple of your eye - would you do it?

As I have already explained in the post you quoted. God is not a fool who would ask something like this of me. He would know I am no 'Abraham'. I would likely fail every test Job had as well. I hope this truth of you and I not being 'majorly' tested by God sinks in.

What does this verse explain to us? Ezekiel 20:25-26 "' Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.”

The link I gave addresses this verse and the one in Exodus.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Yes it does. A quote from the link:

Exodus 13:12-134, I don't know how that could be clearer (and it is repeated again in Exodus 34:20: You shall redeem all the firstborn of your sons). They are to sacrifice the animals, but redeem the sons. It helps to understand why God commanded this, which is explained in the verses immediately following,

Google Child sacrifice

Psalm 106:37 "Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto false gods"

1 Cor 20:20 " No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God. And I do not want you to be participants with demons."

Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in this way, because they practice for their gods every abomination which the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed to demons, not to God, to gods they had not known, to newly arrived gods, which your fathers did not fear.

2 Kings 16:3
Instead, he walked in the way of the kings of Israel and even sacrificed his son in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.

2 Kings 17:17
They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire and practiced divination and soothsaying. They devoted themselves to doing evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger.

Rabbi A.I. Kook, (speaking on the sacrifice of Issac by Abraham) the first Chief Rabbi of Israel, stressed that the climax of the story, commanding Abraham not to sacrifice Isaac, is the whole point: to put an end to the ritual of child sacrifice, which contradicts the morality of a perfect and giving (not taking) monotheistic God. and according to Irving Greenberg ( Irving Greenberg, also known as Yitz Greenberg, is a Jewish-American scholar and author who identifies as a Modern Orthodox rabbi. ) the story of the binding of Isaac, symbolises the prohibition to worship God by human sacrifices, at a time when human sacrifices were the norm worldwide.