baptized with water and the holy spirit

[Brother-Paul]

You can be baptized by the Holy Spirit in or out of the water!

So true my friend

Scripture says we should be baptised in spirit and water. We are baptised in the spirit the second we repent and ask Jesus into our heart.

For many baptism by water comes later.

Jesus tells us we need both.

Bless you.

 

[Truthcomber]

Hi Susan,

Sue D,



To Rehash:

You: There are not two Adamic races. Only one.

Me: Again, re-posted for continuity and now expansion.

There are two Adams, the one in Genesis and the one in 1 Corinthians 15:45

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Christ) was made a quickening spirit.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

To continue:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, (click on the links below: H1223 on account of) also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:2 Interlinear: in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

Strong's Greek: 1223. διά (dia) -- through, on account of, because of

Me: This tells me that the Messiah had not existed prior to his birth because he did not speak to the prophets at all by the Messiah, but through his Word or expression. This expression was not expressed then in the flesh of man. After Christ's resurrection, he became the full expression of God (Revelation 19:12) of God.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Me: The Word of God is the expression of God. No one has every and can every hear or see God (1 Timothy 6:16). We see and hear God through the expression of himself. In the OT, the son of God did not exist. It was not until the Word was expressed in the human Christ born of man do we have the term “son of God” referring to man. Christ did not become the son of God fully until after his resurrection and glorification. There is no son of God or God the son in the OT. Why, because the son of God did not exist until after his resurrection and glorification.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten (me:birth) thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten (Colossians 1:18) into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


Only in Daniel 3:25 do we have “one LIKE the son of God pertaining to the Messiah to be born from the womb of Mary. This was a theophany or more specifically a Christophany.
What does theophany mean? What is a Christophany?

Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no MAN in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no MAN was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Me: The son of man together with his Father is God (Revelation 21:22-23). God is divine and was expressed fully in his temple, the Messiah. As was elaborated earlier, the first Adam had died in his spirit mind or this aspect of his mind that relates to God (Luke 9:60}. Yet he also had a human mind. The Messiah was born with his spirit mind intact. His father is expressed fully in him. The father in turn has a human mind. This is the Messiah fully expressed in him (John 14:10).

Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead:…

John 14:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[Truthcomber]

Hi Sue D,


Eccl 3: 17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Me: All of man is made of the dust (Genesis 3:19), that includes his human spirit. It returns to the elements from which it is made from (Ezekiel 37:9, Genesis 4:10) just like the beasts do.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Me: The spirit that goes up to God is the holy spirit with the heart of Christ in it (2 Corinthians 5:8). It is the new generation of man descended from the new Adam, Christ.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D





You:

The God-head = God the Father -- Jesus Christ His Son -- and the Holy Spirit.

I see what the problem Is. You believe that Jesus' physical birth as a Jewish baby boy was His first time in existence. That God chose to have Mary conceive of the Holy Spirit -- yes. But Jesus did not Earn becoming part of the Godhead Because He willingly died on the cross and was bodily resurrected. He Was given the seat of honor after ascending back into heaven.

He was Immanuel -- God incarnate -- look at Isaiah 7:14 -- 'and they shall call His name Immanuel -- literally meaning God-with-us. And then look at Matthew 1:23 " they shall call His name Immanuel --- which is translated , "God with us."


Me: God is called Immanuel because he was truly expressed fully in the Messiah. God is not with man until Revelation 21:3. He was fully expressed from heaven in the Messiah when he was on earth. The Messiah then became glorified together with his father (John 17:3 below) . Then the Messiah came to earth again in Revelation 21:3)

John 17:3 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Me: The word or expression of God in Christ was with God at the beginning of creation (John 1:1), not as Jesus (John 1:14).



1. The divine mind of God without the Word or expression of himself is God. For the Word of God was expressed in the beginning (John 1:1) and was the instrument in creation.


2. The expression of God himself or word of God plus the divine mind of God = God (John 1:1).


3. The human mind of the Messiah plus the divine mind of his father = God.

The Word became flesh. God expressed himself in the human mind of the Messiah (John 1:14) and not a theophany.


4. The human mind of the Messiah without the divine mind of his father is not God.


You: Jesus Christ didn't need to Become deity -- He was there all along -- back in Genesis 1 :26 "Then said God , "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness....." -- since God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is Spirit -- the likeness must have been referring to The Word -- and John 1:1 Also says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. vs 2 "He was in the beginning With God." So -- we can see that the Word was Jesus Christ and that He, Jesus Christ , was in the beginning With God. Thus -- the Godhead.

“Let us” in Genesis 1:26 is NOT the Trinity

Quote: "Elohim is known in Hebrew grammar as A PLURAL OF MAJESTY. It is derived from the Hebrew verb “el” meaning, “strength,” and thus elohim amplifies the meaning of strength (el). In Hebrew, the literal rendering of elohim would read, “The strongest strength” or even, “the strongest of the strong.” To introduce the polytheistic concept of the Trinity into the monotheistic Hebrew scripture by twisting the meaning of elohim is ignorance, dishonesty or outright deception...
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. (KJV) Notice the personal pronouns in Genesis 1:27 (“his” and “he”) are all SINGULAR, whereas the personal pronouns in Genesis 1:26 (“Us” and “Our”) are all plural. In Genesis 1:27 only one individual is actually doing the creating…God!

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Me: The Word was in the beginning with God, not Jesus. Christ became fully the Word of God at his resurrection and glorification. He is now the complete expression of his Father.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Truthcomber]

Hi Sue D,



The Messiah is part of the holy spirit.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
The Father is part of that spirit.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Me: Bottom line, there is one holy spirit (Ephesians 4:4) which has the mind of God and the human mind of the Messiah in it.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Me: So John 4:24, 16:13 refer to the mind of the father. The mind is of the spirit and is spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:17 refers to the human mind of Christ in the same spirit. The son bonds with the father. The church members become one with the human mind of Christ in that same spirit.


There are no three persons in a trinity called God. There is one God with a human mind and a spirit mind like the church members have a spirit and human minds.

 

[Sue D.]

Also -- born-again believers Are new creations in Christ -- but that does Not mean that they are a new line of people Being created. 'we' Are the Body of Christ.

I should Hope that God does Not have a human mind because that would put Him on Our human level of thinking. One of God's attributes is omniscience / being omniscient. That mean having All knowledge about everything. Only God has that -- Not mankind.

A human mind and a spirit mind????

A 'spirit' mind????

Sounds like you're equating God with church members who have a spirit and human minds.?

May I ask what denomination you are part of?

The trinity = the Godhead = God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

they are Not all called God.

In Matthew 28 -- the disciples are being told to baptize people ' in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.'

Our salvation is made possible Through the interactions Of the trinity.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D

You: Mankind was made a little lower than angels.

Me: Nope, Christ was.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:…9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,

Me: Christ was not weak in the flesh but was made a little lower than the angels. He was strong in his flesh and mind. He could transfigure himself. He was made so much higher than angels (Hebrews 1:4) after his resurrection and glorification.


Psalms 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Me: These are the three verses that have the “son of man made a little lower than the angels.” The son of man is Christ as witness in Heb 2:6 above. The first part of Heb 2:7 is referring to the last part of vs 6—likewise with Psalm 8:3, 4. What would have been the point of listing both as a little lower than angels if both are. Just say man was made a little lower than angels

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D,


You: Also -- born-again believers Are new creations in Christ -- but that does Not mean that they are a new line of people Being created. 'we' Are the Body of Christ.

Me: It does mean precisely that. We are a new line of people.

Strong's Greek: 4983. σῶμα (sóma) -- a body

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D,

You: I should Hope that God does Not have a human mind because that would put Him on Our human level of thinking. One of God's attributes is omniscience / being omniscient. That mean having All knowledge about everything. Only God has that -- Not mankind.

Me: God does have a human mind—it is the mind of Christ.

Col 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

You: A human mind and a spirit mind????
A 'spirit' mind????

Me: Yes, absolutely.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace… 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Me: Christ is of the physical seed of David. Christ is also of the spiritual seed of Abraham, so is his church. The spirit mind of the first Adam had died the very day he ate, but he did not die physically. This death is passed down through all men. Only God can restore that.

The prophets of the OT had been born of the holy spirit, One example:

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

...but not born of water.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly (soul) shall flow rivers of living water.

Me: When we are baptized with the holy spirit, we have the holy spirit in our minds (spirit mind) and the heart of Christ in our human mind (Phil 2:5) through the holy spirit. Thus, our human minds become transformed to his human mind.

.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Me: If we follow the mind of our flesh, we will die. But if we follow the holy spirit with the human heart of themind of Christ in it, we will live.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D,



You: I should Hope that God does Not have a human mind because that would put Him on Our human level of thinking. One of God's attributes is omniscience / being omniscient. That mean having All knowledge about everything. Only God has that -- Not mankind.


Me: Wrong!!!


John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


Me: We are joint heirs with Christ in all knowledge and understanding.


1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see (me: perceive since God is invisible) him as he is.

Me: We will even understand the ultimate, God himself.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D



You: Sounds like you're equating God with church members who have spirit and human minds.


Me: I am equating us with Christ. On the other hand, Christ does have a human mind that is bonded as one with his Father’s spirit mind in him (John 10:30) We become like him, not he like us. Why is this?


Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.


Me: It is because Christ was a human made a little lower than angels. But now he is so much higher than they. God is both divine and human. See above.


Hebrews 2:17 Interlinear: wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,

Me: If you click on the above and read the Greek text, it sure looks like we be made like him, not he like us.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D

You: May I ask what denomination you are part of?

It is not the church of Sue D. LOL But seriously,

None: I ask the spirit to teach me. I do fellowship not with a denomination but with friends. That way, I get around the dogma.

 

[Truthcomber]

One last step here to go: the pagan trinity. I will save that for next time.

 

[Sue D.]

Sue D

You: May I ask what denomination you are part of?

It is not the church of Sue D. LOL But seriously,

None: I ask the spirit to teach me. I do fellowship not with a denomination but with friends. That way, I get around the dogma.

Well -- Now I know what Your situation is. You fellowship with friends who obviously believe the same 'stuff' that You do. "That way, I get around the dogma" -- your words -- and THAT is dangerous. You seem to be hearing your Own 'spirit' and that of your like-minded friends.

You Are indeed reading God's Word -- but with your own 'twist' to it.

 

[Sue D.]

One last step here to go: the pagan trinity. I will save that for next time.

Well -- I won't be responding to it. The only pagan trinity I know about is the satanic one. And I won't be going there.

The only Scriptural trinity = Godhead = God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D

You got me interested. What denomination do you go to? I need to find it so I can go there and absorb the pure truth without having to think and prove all things.

 

[Sue D.]

Sue D

You got me interested. What denomination do you go to? I need to find it so I can go there and absorb the pure truth without having to think and prove all things.

I'm detecting some sarcasm in your comment.

I'm a born-again believer who is also conservative Baptist. Have always been taught to read Bible on my own as well as being taught in Sunday School and church and Bible study. Am also into doctrinal apologetics -- knowing what you believe and why.

No one finds 'pure' truth without studying Scripture / learning from it. John 14:6 Jesus Christ is telling everyone that "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." Jesus Christ speaking.

 

[Sue D.]

Sue D



You: Sounds like you're equating God with church members who have spirit and human minds.


Me: I am equating us with Christ. On the other hand, Christ does have a human mind that is bonded as one with his Father’s spirit mind in him (John 10:30) We become like him, not he like us. Why is this?


Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.


Me: It is because Christ was a human made a little lower than angels. But now he is so much higher than they. God is both divine and human. See above.


Hebrews 2:17 Interlinear: wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,

Me: If you click on the above and read the Greek text, it sure looks like we be made like him, not he like us.

Jesus Christ came into this world as a Jewish baby -- to grow into a mature human man. He came into this world -- to be with us -- in human form. Thus, He became, like us, and We were created a little lower than the angels. But He was Always the 2nd person of the Godhead. For 33 of His years here with us -- He Did give up part of His nature to be able to identify with us. He Was tempted in all ways, like we are -- except that He did not sin in the process of being human.

He chose to become like Us -- so He could 'show' us His Father -- through the many miracles He performed. The people could see that something 'more than them' was at work. People were being healed -- brought back to life in some cases. because of something about this 'man'. The 'man' Christ Jesus.

God IS divine but Not human.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D

You: Well -- Now I know what Your situation is. You fellowship with friends who obviously believe the same 'stuff' that You do. "That way, I get around the dogma" -- your words -- and THAT is dangerous. You seem to be hearing your Own 'spirit' and that of your like-minded friends.

You Are indeed reading God's Word -- but with your own 'twist' to it.


Me: I have backed up everything I have presented in a coherent fashion where all the pieces fit and do not contradict each other. You have not. I have in addition to this shown you the words from two reputable concordances. You call this a twist. You have not done this but are steeped in your Babylonian mystery religion that involves the trinity. You probably observe Christmas and Easter also. Both are an abomination before God. Yes, I fellowship with my friends, some from denominations I do not agree with thoroughly. We research articles from religious sources everywhere. And yes, we do ask the holy spirit for guidance. We are not a cult but have open minds to search for the truth wherever we can find it. We are not enslaved to any hierarchical organization doctrine like you seem to be.

1 Thes 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

So, you think we are dangerous. No, we are not. We are free to think and explore in the face of accusations from the likes of you. You make a judgement on us with so little information. That is how you present your case here with the scriptures.



You: I'm a born-again believer who is also conservative Baptist.

Me: I am not impressed.

 

[B-A-C]

Me: This tells me that the Messiah had not existed prior to his birth because he did not speak to the prophets at all by the Messiah, but through his Word or expression. This expression was not expressed then in the flesh of man. After Christ's resurrection, he became the full expression of God (Revelation 19:12) of God.

God existed before the physical creation of the universe. Just because Jesus was the first thing "in" creation, doesn't mean He didn't exist before creation.
In fact everything that was created... was created by Him. You can't create something if you don't exist yet.

Col 1:15; He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16; For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17; He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18; He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19; For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Col 1:20; and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Gen 1:1; In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God existed before the heavens and the earth did, in fact He existed before anything that was created existed.

John 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2; He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

No part of creation exists, that Jesus Himself did not create.
Jesus was God "in the beginning". Before He was manifested in the flesh and came to earth.

John 1:14; And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

He "became" flesh, but He wasn't always flesh. He wasn't created, He is the only begotten Son. He always existed.
Jesus is of course... God.

Tit 2:13; looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 Pet 1:1; Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

None of us was redeemed by a man who was only human.

Psa 49:7; No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him—
Psa 49:15; But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

It is God who redeems.

Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Even the Father calls Jesus God.