Predestined?

[Sue D.]

That Almost sounds like denying part of the Godhead -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. It's not a 'breath' that comes to reside in a believer -- A 'breath' doesn't give inner peace or bring verses to our memory as we need them at times.

 

[Curtis]

It's not a kind of thinking. It's literally what the words mean. The Greek and Hebrew words in no way have the concept of a disembodied living being. That idea is imposed on the text, it's one of the reasons so many are so confused. It's where people get the idea that they are a "spirit" being living in a flesh body. That is actually a belief that was common among the Greeks in Jesus' day. It was also behind the whole idea of going to Heaven. The Gnositcs were a group that combined Christian doctrine with Greek philosophy. The Gnostics saw the flesh as inherently evil and the their goal was for their spirit/soul to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. The Greeks also sought to flee the body and ascend into the heavens. This is why they rejected Paul and the resurrection at Mars Hill. Their thinking was if the flesh was inherently evil why would anyone want to be resurrected.

These Greek and Hebrew words shouldn't be translated using the English word spirit because the English readers read a concept into the Greek and Hebrew words that simply is not there.

The translators of the Bible are smarter than me, so I have no choice since I can not read Greek or Hebrew. I have many many Bible translations and read pretty much all of them, and yes I have several Greek, Hebrew concordances, and dictionaries so I do Not not look up words all the time.

 

[Sue D.]

Butch5 -- you commented quite a while back in this thread that you question Everything. Well -- Why do you do that? Do you not trust anything you are told? Do you not trust the translators? it's Fine to go back to the original language -- but what is your goal in doing that. You've commented that for years you believed one thing and then found that you were mistaken in your earlier beliefs.

It concerns me about your strong leaning towards Logic. Nothing wrong with Logic -- and we've had some of this conversation previously. But logic can be very sterile. Not a lot of humanity / emotion in logic.

Many years ago -- while a Bible college / seminary student-- one of the courses required was one in Logic. That was probably the Worse semester my husband had. It brought the cold logic within him. After a while, he got back to 'normal'.

 

[Dave M]

Jesus while in the flesh had the authority to forgive sins, think about that.

 

[Sue D.]

Our forgiveness Is through His shed blood on the cross of Calvary. No other way. Jesus Christ is the way.

 

[Butch5]

One of the hardest lessons to learn is how God is. Does God have a body? Yes, he does! What kind of body does God have?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

This is a warning to the Church by the Apostle Paul that some will be "taken captive", through "vain deceit", "the traditions of men" "philosophy" "the "rudiments of this world", and not after Christ! As the Word "Christ" means "anointing" which is what teaches us about God himself. (1 John 2:27)

No amount of logical analytical study could ever yield an understanding of spiritual things, because they are natural and logical, not spiritual.

The very next verse which is speaking about Christ is....

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jesus Christ who is the Word of God (who became flesh) is God's body!!! In Jesus Christ lives all of the fullness of the Godhead bodily!!

If Jesus is living inside you than you have all the fulness of the Godhead living inside of you!!! Most believers do not know this, or they know it but do not believe it!

Not only is God in his fulness living inside every believer, the very next verse tells us this.....

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

God in us, and we in God!!!

Do not trust me, look it up yourself.

I see Jesus has a body. I don't see where the Father has a body.

 

[Ivan Chamurliev]

I personally think that this is an issue that applies to God. It's not for us to think and judge about this matter. God is sovereign and we are so much below that. I think that trying to gudge about this we are putting ourselves on God's level. Let us see what God demands from us in the scripture giving Him obviously all the merits and not taking away His glory. The man sometimes does that thinking that is because of his decisions and boasts. We can see the parable in Matthew 22 when Jesus was speaking about the wedding feast and the invitation. We can see that there he invited people to the feast and when they refused he was furious about it. He didn't like it. So we can actually see that God was despleased about it. Our part is to answer the invitation and we have to consider that. At the end of the parable in Matthew 22:14 says that many are called but few are chosen. In this way it connects, it makes a connection between this being chosen with coming to the wedding or accepting the invitation. This is what God demands from us and what we need to worry about. For the rest He will worry. We musn't obviously think that taking this decisions makes us better or gives us glory. There is aswell the issue with not having a wedding garment. Only He can give us that. This is what I think and what the Bible says aswell. Someone else might think it differently and I can respect it too if it's according to the scripture.

 

[Sue D.]

Butch5 -- God is Spirit -- no body.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 -- you commented quite a while back in this thread that you question Everything. Well -- Why do you do that? Do you not trust anything you are told? Do you not trust the translators? it's Fine to go back to the original language -- but what is your goal in doing that. You've commented that for years you believed one thing and then found that you were mistaken in your earlier beliefs.

It concerns me about your strong leaning towards Logic. Nothing wrong with Logic -- and we've had some of this conversation previously. But logic can be very sterile. Not a lot of humanity / emotion in logic.

Many years ago -- while a Bible college / seminary student-- one of the courses required was one in Logic. That was probably the Worse semester my husband had. It brought the cold logic within him. After a while, he got back to 'normal'.

Because when I saw things were wrong it made me wonder what else is wrong. The sheer amount of wrong teaching I received was enough to make me question everything. It's one of the best things I ever did. It showed me that the majority of what is being taught today is not Christian doctrine

Concerning logic, that's how we reason. If one rejects logic they reject sound reasoning. Peter said that no Scripture is of private interpretation. The Gnostics claimed to have special knowledge that the apostles didn't have. Thus their private interpretations. I see a lot of people who claim to be taught by the Holy Spirit and yet the things they teach are opposed to Scripture. I don't really think the Holy Spirit is teaching them wrong, I think they are simply wrong in thinking that they were taught that doctrine by the Holy Spirit. The mind is a powerful thing and it can make people believe all kinds of things. If something comes from the Holy Spirit then it should align with Scripture, not oppose it. The way we check something against Scripture is by using logic. I get the impression you're not that big on logic. However, keep in mind that it was God who created logic. The reason two opposing things can't both be true at the same time is because that's the way God created things.

 

[Butch5]

The translators of the Bible are smarter than me, so I have no choice since I can not read Greek or Hebrew. I have many many Bible translations and read pretty much all of them, and yes I have several Greek, Hebrew concordances, and dictionaries so I do Not not look up words all the time.

I don't know that they are smarter than you, they may just know different things. I look at quite a few translations. I tend toward the more literal ones. They may be a little harder to read but they are more faithful to the original languages. Young's Literal translation is one. It's pretty faithful to the originals. I use dictionaries sometimes. I find it better to look at how a word is used in the Scriptures to get a good sense of the meaning. Just like translations, dictionaries are filtered through the writers beliefs.

 

[Butch5]

That Almost sounds like denying part of the Godhead -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. It's not a 'breath' that comes to reside in a believer -- A 'breath' doesn't give inner peace or bring verses to our memory as we need them at times.

Or it could be what the words actually mean. It could be that spirit is a figurative usage of the Greek and Hebrew words. If it's not literally a breath then it's a figure of speech. What does the figure mean?

 

[Curtis]

I see Jesus has a body. I don't see where the Father has a body.

The Fathers body is Jesus's body!

Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[Sue D.]

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is the convictor of a person? That He seals the person upon their salvation? He's our teacher? So apparently there's more to the Holy Spirit than being a breath.

 

[Sue D.]

Or that the term Spirit is used in different ways -- the Holy Spirit being part of the Godhead.

 

[Butch5]

The Fathers body is Jesus's body!

Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Are you a Modalist then?

 

[Sue D.]

Because when I saw things were wrong it made me wonder what else is wrong. The sheer amount of wrong teaching I received was enough to make me question everything. It's one of the best things I ever did. It showed me that the majority of what is being taught today is not Christian doctrine

Concerning logic, that's how we reason. If one rejects logic they reject sound reasoning. Peter said that no Scripture is of private interpretation. The Gnostics claimed to have special knowledge that the apostles didn't have. Thus their private interpretations. I see a lot of people who claim to be taught by the Holy Spirit and yet the things they teach are opposed to Scripture. I don't really think the Holy Spirit is teaching them wrong, I think they are simply wrong in thinking that they were taught that doctrine by the Holy Spirit. The mind is a powerful thing and it can make people believe all kinds of things. If something comes from the Holy Spirit then it should align with Scripture, not oppose it. The way we check something against Scripture is by using logic. I get the impression you're not that big on logic. However, keep in mind that it was God who created logic. The reason two opposing things can't both be true at the same time is because that's the way God created things.

I'm going to 'park' on this for a moment. What things did you see that were wrong. Or maybe we could continue 'this' in conversation. Seems we were in Conversation for a bit. And I don't mean to hi-jack this thread.
I'm also thinking it was on another subject. And I'm Not going back to the 1 Corinthians subject.

Seems also that the things you saw as wrong teaching were topics that are in Scripture that you simply don't agree with. There are some topics that have several different views that are in Scripture -- people have differing views on.


Well -- Scripture answers Scripture -- well -- a person can over-use logic at times. God has given us all brains -- the Holy Spirit gives discernment. Godly wisdom. And a person who's home is in war-torn Syria or one of those countries Will see life from a very different perspective than someone living in Iowa, for instance. Perspectives aren't Wrong, just different.

 

[Curtis]

Are you a Modalist then?

I am not!! Remember only Jesus can reveal to us his Father, and only the Father can reveal to us His Son. These are not the same being, they are distinct individuals but are one God.

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Sue D.]

Another question @Butch5 -- how much does your wife get involved with you in your digging deeper for truths in God's Word. As you question so much -- how does she respond to that.

 

[Butch5]

I'm going to 'park' on this for a moment. What things did you see that were wrong. Or maybe we could continue 'this' in conversation. Seems we were in Conversation for a bit. And I don't mean to hi-jack this thread.
I'm also thinking it was on another subject. And I'm Not going back to the 1 Corinthians subject.

Seems also that the things you saw as wrong teaching were topics that are in Scripture that you simply don't agree with. There are some topics that have several different views that are in Scripture -- people have differing views on.


Well -- Scripture answers Scripture -- well -- a person can over-use logic at times. God has given us all brains -- the Holy Spirit gives discernment. Godly wisdom. And a person who's home is in war-torn Syria or one of those countries Will see life from a very different perspective than someone living in Iowa, for instance. Perspectives aren't Wrong, just different.

This thread is far from predestination now so I guess it doesn't matter. What did I find that was wrong? It started with the Calvinist doctrine of Predestination. He's a list of some things.

Immortal Soul
Eternal Conscious Torment of the wicked
That the believers go to Heaven
That believers are immediately with the Lord
That Heaven is our final destiny
faith alone
Trinity
Once saved always saved
The rapture before the Tribulation
Penal Subsitution
This is off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more if I think on it for a while.

There are no things in Scripture I don't agree with. I agree with everything in Scripture. What I disagree with are views that can't stand in the light of Scripture. People can hold different views, however, most times only one is correct. For instance ECT. It can't be both ways either the wicked suffer eternally or they don't. One view on this subject is wrong.

Perspective is very important. That's why I've spent a lot of time studying the Scriptures from the perspective of a 1st century reader and not from the perspective of a 21 century westerner. In another post I mentioned that I use a historical/gramatical hermeneutic in my study of Scripture. This is looking at the Scriptures from a historical perspective. It's from the perspective of the ones it was written to.

 

[Butch5]

I am not!! Remember only Jesus can reveal to us his Father, and only the Father can reveal to us His Son. These are not the same being, they are distinct individuals but are one God.

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Can you explain how they are two individuals, but one God?