Predestined?
- Thread starter Butch5
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Curtis
Loyal
The translators of the Bible are smarter than me, so I have no choice since I can not read Greek or Hebrew. I have many many Bible translations and read pretty much all of them, and yes I have several Greek, Hebrew concordances, and dictionaries so I do Not not look up words all the time.
Butch5 -- you commented quite a while back in this thread that you question Everything. Well -- Why do you do that? Do you not trust anything you are told? Do you not trust the translators? it's Fine to go back to the original language -- but what is your goal in doing that. You've commented that for years you believed one thing and then found that you were mistaken in your earlier beliefs.
It concerns me about your strong leaning towards Logic. Nothing wrong with Logic -- and we've had some of this conversation previously. But logic can be very sterile. Not a lot of humanity / emotion in logic.
Many years ago -- while a Bible college / seminary student-- one of the courses required was one in Logic. That was probably the Worse semester my husband had. It brought the cold logic within him. After a while, he got back to 'normal'.
It concerns me about your strong leaning towards Logic. Nothing wrong with Logic -- and we've had some of this conversation previously. But logic can be very sterile. Not a lot of humanity / emotion in logic.
Many years ago -- while a Bible college / seminary student-- one of the courses required was one in Logic. That was probably the Worse semester my husband had. It brought the cold logic within him. After a while, he got back to 'normal'.
Butch5
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I see Jesus has a body. I don't see where the Father has a body.
Ivan Chamurliev
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I personally think that this is an issue that applies to God. It's not for us to think and judge about this matter. God is sovereign and we are so much below that. I think that trying to gudge about this we are putting ourselves on God's level. Let us see what God demands from us in the scripture giving Him obviously all the merits and not taking away His glory. The man sometimes does that thinking that is because of his decisions and boasts. We can see the parable in Matthew 22 when Jesus was speaking about the wedding feast and the invitation. We can see that there he invited people to the feast and when they refused he was furious about it. He didn't like it. So we can actually see that God was despleased about it. Our part is to answer the invitation and we have to consider that. At the end of the parable in Matthew 22:14 says that many are called but few are chosen. In this way it connects, it makes a connection between this being chosen with coming to the wedding or accepting the invitation. This is what God demands from us and what we need to worry about. For the rest He will worry. We musn't obviously think that taking this decisions makes us better or gives us glory. There is aswell the issue with not having a wedding garment. Only He can give us that. This is what I think and what the Bible says aswell. Someone else might think it differently and I can respect it too if it's according to the scripture.
Butch5
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Because when I saw things were wrong it made me wonder what else is wrong. The sheer amount of wrong teaching I received was enough to make me question everything. It's one of the best things I ever did. It showed me that the majority of what is being taught today is not Christian doctrine
Concerning logic, that's how we reason. If one rejects logic they reject sound reasoning. Peter said that no Scripture is of private interpretation. The Gnostics claimed to have special knowledge that the apostles didn't have. Thus their private interpretations. I see a lot of people who claim to be taught by the Holy Spirit and yet the things they teach are opposed to Scripture. I don't really think the Holy Spirit is teaching them wrong, I think they are simply wrong in thinking that they were taught that doctrine by the Holy Spirit. The mind is a powerful thing and it can make people believe all kinds of things. If something comes from the Holy Spirit then it should align with Scripture, not oppose it. The way we check something against Scripture is by using logic. I get the impression you're not that big on logic. However, keep in mind that it was God who created logic. The reason two opposing things can't both be true at the same time is because that's the way God created things.
Butch5
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I don't know that they are smarter than you, they may just know different things. I look at quite a few translations. I tend toward the more literal ones. They may be a little harder to read but they are more faithful to the original languages. Young's Literal translation is one. It's pretty faithful to the originals. I use dictionaries sometimes. I find it better to look at how a word is used in the Scriptures to get a good sense of the meaning. Just like translations, dictionaries are filtered through the writers beliefs.
Butch5
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Or it could be what the words actually mean. It could be that spirit is a figurative usage of the Greek and Hebrew words. If it's not literally a breath then it's a figure of speech. What does the figure mean?
Curtis
Loyal
The Fathers body is Jesus's body!
Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Butch5
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Are you a Modalist then?
I'm going to 'park' on this for a moment. What things did you see that were wrong. Or maybe we could continue 'this' in conversation. Seems we were in Conversation for a bit. And I don't mean to hi-jack this thread.
I'm also thinking it was on another subject. And I'm Not going back to the 1 Corinthians subject.
Seems also that the things you saw as wrong teaching were topics that are in Scripture that you simply don't agree with. There are some topics that have several different views that are in Scripture -- people have differing views on.
Well -- Scripture answers Scripture -- well -- a person can over-use logic at times. God has given us all brains -- the Holy Spirit gives discernment. Godly wisdom. And a person who's home is in war-torn Syria or one of those countries Will see life from a very different perspective than someone living in Iowa, for instance. Perspectives aren't Wrong, just different.
Curtis
Loyal
I am not!! Remember only Jesus can reveal to us his Father, and only the Father can reveal to us His Son. These are not the same being, they are distinct individuals but are one God.
Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Butch5
Active
This thread is far from predestination now so I guess it doesn't matter. What did I find that was wrong? It started with the Calvinist doctrine of Predestination. He's a list of some things.
Immortal Soul
Eternal Conscious Torment of the wicked
That the believers go to Heaven
That believers are immediately with the Lord
That Heaven is our final destiny
faith alone
Trinity
Once saved always saved
The rapture before the Tribulation
Penal Subsitution
This is off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more if I think on it for a while.
There are no things in Scripture I don't agree with. I agree with everything in Scripture. What I disagree with are views that can't stand in the light of Scripture. People can hold different views, however, most times only one is correct. For instance ECT. It can't be both ways either the wicked suffer eternally or they don't. One view on this subject is wrong.
Perspective is very important. That's why I've spent a lot of time studying the Scriptures from the perspective of a 1st century reader and not from the perspective of a 21 century westerner. In another post I mentioned that I use a historical/gramatical hermeneutic in my study of Scripture. This is looking at the Scriptures from a historical perspective. It's from the perspective of the ones it was written to.
Butch5
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Can you explain how they are two individuals, but one God?