Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

[Butch5]

Galatians 3:27-29 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
"THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed according to the promise."

"Without the Spirit ye are none of his."

I think I can glean that to be baptized in the Holy Ghost is the necessary part of being born again, from above, of the Spirit etc.. same meaning. First birth is accomplished
by all when they are separated from their mothers womb by God.

1 Tim 1:4 " Neither give heed to fables and ENDLESS GENEALOGIES, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."

Do any of us know whether or not we actually have Hebrew lineage and does it matter? NO!

Unless you're going to claim that there were no such things as Jews and Gentiles when Paul wrote his letter, Galatians 3:27-29 has no bearing on the subject. Don't know why you posted that. It's much more productive to study the Scriptures in context rather than proof texting passages of Scripture that don't address the subject at hand.

You said, "First birth is accomplished by all when they are separated from their mothers womb by God." This is illogical. Why would Jesus tells someone who was born they had to be born again? How many people who came to Jesus weren't born from their mother's womb? Would Gentiles who never heard of the Kingdom of God think that their physical birth would gain them entrance into the kingdom? Obviously not. The only one's who got entrance to the kingdom through their physical birth was the Jews. Did Gentiles come to the Jews saying, "I was born from my mother therefore I have a right to the kingdom of God"? No, they didn't. In order to be counted among the number they had to become a proselyte. Also, being born of the womb isn't being born of God. John said the one who believes is born of God. He didn't say the one who comes out of the womb is born of God.

And, before you post a bunch of passages about the kingdom being only about believers, the Jews had it and it was taken from them.

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matt. 21:43 KJV)

 

[Hekuran]

Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to natural birth - 'Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb?' Jesus does not correct him. That's the most straightforward reading -- unless there's a very compelling reason to think otherwise.

And while the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus was between two Jews, John, writing decades later, was very sensitive to a mixed readership of Jews and Greeks.

 

[Born Again 2004]

The Bible ,says regarding salvation, that it is for Jews and Gentiles. Possessing the Holy Spirit ( being Born Again) is the only thing that will allow you to enter God's realm.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Only for those who believe!!!

 

[Born Again 2004]

Jesus offered salvation to the Samaritan Woman..she was clearly a Gentile!

 

[Butch5]

Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to natural birth - 'Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb?' Jesus does not correct him. That's the most straightforward reading -- unless there's a very compelling reason to think otherwise.

And while the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus was between two Jews, John, writing decades later, was very sensitive to a mixed readership of Jews and Greeks.

I agree that Nicodemus thought Jesus meant natural birth, that's clear from his statement. However, we see that Jesus didn't mean natural birth by His statement, you must be born from above. What we have to consider is the implication of Jesus statement. He said to Nicodemus, you must be born again to see the kingdom. One implication is that, Nicodemus your first birth wasn't sufficient. Another is that he thought his birth would gain him access to the kingdom. Why would Nicodemus think that his first birth would get him access to the kingdom? The Jews were the kingdom of God. The Gentiles were not. If the first birth was the natural birth, then all people around the world would have been the people of God. But they weren't, only the Jews were. What is it that gave Nicodemus access to the Kingdom, but not the Galatian Gentile? It was his physical birth from Abraham. Nicodemus' physical birth through Abraham gets him into the kingdom and the Galatian Gentile's physical birth doesn't because it was not through Abraham. However, Jesus knows that the Kingdom is going to be taken away from the Jews and given to someone else, thus his statement you must be born from above. In other words, there's going to be another way Nicodemus.

Let me ask you, if you think Jesus meant any man at any time, what do you believe the first birth is.


Let me also state, just to be clear, that I believe when Jesus says to Nicodemus, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" that this is what John is referring to when he says that the Gentiles are born of God. It's the same process for both the Jew and the Gentile. The difference is that this process for the Jew is the second birth and for the Gentile it's the fist. When some today believes they become a part of the people of God. In the Old Testament God chose Abraham's seed as the people of God, 'Israel is my son, even my firstborn'. The kingdom was taken from them and given to someone else. Now when someone is a believer and follows Christ they are a part of the people of God. As John says, they are born of God. For Israel this is a second birth, for Gentiles it is a first birth.

 

[Samson2020]

Why would Jesus tells someone who was born they had to be born again?

Simple. Spiritual birth. "Without the Spirit ye are none of his."

It would seem that this is an attempt to make something out of nothing as were told to let go of all fleshly seperations, such as male and female, bond or free, Jew in the flesh vs Greek in the flesh as we are only true Jews who are Jews in the Spirit, and that includes all who are born of the Spirit and have become the New creature.

 

[Samson2020]

Spiritual Israel is my firstborn Spiritually speaking as these are the first fruits unto God and the the Lamb.

 

[Samson2020]

Jacob-Israel was a prince with God and so are his first born spiritual sons.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus offered salvation to the Samaritan Woman..she was clearly a Gentile!

Jesus said,

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 15:24 KJV)

Did Jesus lie? It's a simple yes or no question. If your answer is yes, then there's no need to continue. If your answer is no, then please explain what your statement above has to do with the subject at hand.

 

[Butch5]

Simple. Spiritual birth. "Without the Spirit ye are none of his."

It would seem that this is an attempt to make something out of nothing as were told to let go of all fleshly seperations, such as male and female, bond or free, Jew in the flesh vs Greek in the flesh as we are only true Jews who are Jews in the Spirit, and that includes all who are born of the Spirit and have become the New creature.

Then why aren't you letting it go? My discussion is with Hekuran yet you're interjecting in an attempt to prove me wrong.

 

[Butch5]

Spiritual Israel is my firstborn Spiritually speaking as these are the first fruits unto God and the the Lamb.

stated nowhere is Scripture

 

[Butch5]

Jacob-Israel was a prince with God and so are his first born spiritual sons.

This isn't pertinent to the subject at hand.

 

[B-A-C]

Jacob-Israel was a prince with God and so are his first born spiritual sons.

Do you have any scripture to support this?

 

[Samson2020]

He said to Nicodemus, you must be born again to see the kingdom. One implication is that, Nicodemus your first birth wasn't sufficient. Another is that he thought his birth would gain him access to the kingdom. Why would Nicodemus think that his first birth would get him access to the kingdom? The Jews were the kingdom of God.

Gods Kingdom is a spiritual kingdom therefore if your dead spiritually and need to be quickened to life spiritually then the baptism in the Holy Ghost is
exactly what he was talking about. Without this birth you cannot see/understand things of the Spirit because you are still a natural carnally minded human.
NIcodemus would think that as the chosen people of God (the nation of Israel in the flesh he's covered) but Jesus says no theres one more step and the true
elect are those that have the Spirit that only I can give them thus giving them LIFE and access to see the real Kingdom.

Then why aren't you letting it go? My discussion is with Hekuran yet you're interjecting in an attempt to prove me wrong.

The thread title is "Born again and baptism whats the connection?" Isn't it open to all readers?
All scripture is given by inspiration and is useful for correction, doctrine, reproof, for instruction in righteousness.

 

[Samson2020]

Do you have any scripture to support this?

Lets see, the first fruits are the kings of the King and the lords of the Lord Jesus.

Genesis 32:28 "And he said, thy name shall be called no more Jacob but Israel: FOR AS A PRINCE HAST THOU POWER WITH GOD and with men and hast prevailed."

 

[B-A-C]

Genesis 32:28 "And he said, thy name shall be called no more Jacob but Israel: FOR AS A PRINCE HAST THOU POWER WITH GOD and with men and hast prevailed."

I wonder why the word "prince" isn't in any of the original manuscripts for this verse?

(AMPC) And He said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [supplanter], but Israel [contender with God]; for you have contended and have power with God and with men and have prevailed. [Hos_12:3-4]
(AMPC+) And He said, Your name shall be called no more Jacob [supplanter], but Israel [contender with God]; for you have contended and have power with God and with men and have prevailed. [Hos_12:3-4]
(ASV) And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
(CSB) “Your name will no longer be Jacob,” he said. “It will be Israel because you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed.”
(GNB) The man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob. You have struggled with God and with men, and you have won; so your name will be Israel."
(Greek OT) εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῷ Τί τὸ ὄνομά σού ἐστιν; ὁ δὲ εἶπεν Ιακωβ.
(GW) The man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel [He Struggles With God], because you have struggled with God and with men-and you have won."
(HCSB) "Your name will no longer be Jacob," He said. "It will be Israel because you have struggled with God and with men and have prevailed."
(ISV) "Your name won't be Jacob anymore," the man replied, "but Israel, because you exerted yourself against both God and men, and you've emerged victorious."
(KJV) And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
(KJV+) And he said,H559 Thy nameH8034 shall be calledH559 noH3808 moreH5750 Jacob,H3290 butH3588 H518 Israel:H3478 forH3588 as a prince hast thou powerH8280 withH5973 GodH430 and withH5973 men,H376 and hast prevailed.H3201
(KJVA) And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
(MKJV) And He said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for like a prince you have power with God and with men, and have prevailed.
(MSG) The man said, "But no longer. Your name is no longer Jacob. From now on it's Israel (God-Wrestler); you've wrestled with God and you've come through."
(NAS77) And he said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed."
(NASB) He said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed."
(NIrV) Then the man said, "Your name will not be Jacob anymore. Instead, it will be Israel. You have struggled with God and with men. And you have won."
(NIV) Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome."
(NLT) “Your name will no longer be Jacob,” the man told him. “From now on you will be called Israel, because you have fought with God and with men and have won.”
(RV) And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings men,

let us remember that while we can learn from each other, we do need to learn in peace with one another if we expect the Lord to bless our learning [i am addressing men who confess to be Christ's]


may i share this portion from the Bible with you and ask that you post prayerfully and in love, that is, for the purpose of building up. None of us need to be destroyed by each other but we can grow in Grace and i for one confess that i have plenty of growing left, so please feel free to get in line if you find that you do, too.

and while we are at it, does the resurrection have anything to do with being born again?

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2Timothy 2:18-26


Bless you ....><>

 

[Samson2020]

I wonder why the word "prince" isn't in any of the original manuscripts for this verse?

Can't answer that. All I really am sure of is Before Jacob and Esau were born God had said that he loved Jacob and Hated Esau to prove a point. That being it was his
choice to decide who were the elect, if you will, according to the flesh as Jacobs children became the 12 tribes of Israel. In effect he (Jacob) was the father of all those
tribes a true Patriarch that had power with God simply because God had chosen him.

does the resurrection have anything to do with being born again?

I would submit that if one is not born again, then they will not partake of the first resurrection. Therefore extremely important, but one cannot choose themselves
into that position. Gods choice as always.

Iron sharpens iron. And I for one can always use a good sharpening.

 

[Sue D.]

Genesis 32:28 "And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed." A footnote at the bottom says "Israel literally means "Prince with God".