Where do Christians go when they 'die'?

[PloughBoy]

William Tyndale: Contribution to the English Language and Father of the English Bible

The English language is constantly changing. More and more editions of the Webster’s Dictionary are being published every decade, more vernacular is being considered as “standard English,” and more and more leniency is being advocated...

www.inquiriesjournal.com

 

[B-A-C]

As someone who has attended several different Bible schools, it has been my experience that everyone has a certain lean towards a specific commentary.

Some prefer Tyndale, but others prefer Cyrus Scofield, Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, and Dwight Moody have perhaps been the most prominent over the last few centuries.
Recently, more contemporary commentators have appears (and seemingly more extreme differences) John MacArthur, Joyce Meyers, J Vernon McGee, Max Lucado, John Walvoord and others
have become popular.

I do have several study Bibles that include commentaries from the "pre 20th Century" theologians, but the only "post 20th century versions I have are Charles Ryrie, and Billy Graham commentary sets.
But I tend to agree with Trevor here... I like to keep it "simple" without added cream and sugar. I read the commentaries, but rarely do they change my opinion, that is not to say they don't frequently give
added insight and perspective.

 

[B-A-C]

The other thing I would add here about Bibles, some are "translations" and some are "interpretations". I stick to translations. The closer the original, the better.
The interpretations are just someones opinion about what they think it says or what they "think" it should say.

'The Passion Bible', the 'Good News Interpretation', and 'The Message' are examples of this. I own some of these but avoid using them when possible.
I'm probably closer to a John Wycliffe when it comes to this. Make it as close to the original meaning as you can.

 

[Trevor]

I see i must correct myself again concerning post #137 and #138, The reference was concerning, God's word and the use of Dictionaries, and that Dictionaries are a gift from GOD to his true children. I was not referring to ""William Tyndale" commentary.

I was speaking of "The MAN" and "contributions" he has contribute to "body of Christ". and The English language.

1. "The Man who gave God an English voice" was said of him.

2. He gave us these words and phases, 'these words and phrases are not translations of the "Original Text" They created by "Tyndale" made up words from scratch.

a. "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil"

b. "seek and you shall find"

c. "judge not that you not be judge"

d. "My Brother's keeper"

e. "passover"

f. "beautiful"

h. "Jehovah"

I. "atonement"

j. "mercy seat"..........etc let there be light, the salt of the earth, ask and it shall be given, the signs of the time....etc the spirit is willing the flesh is weak.

He made up these words and phrases, there are no such words or phrases in any relationship to the "Original Language copied text"

In most likely, every translation of the "Word of God " of the modern printed world that a person has heard, the Flavor of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and been saved has been caress by the penmanship of "William Tyndale".

3. God bless him, To speak and write in 7 different languages fluently as each one was his native language.
a. english
b. French
c. Spanish
d. Greek
e. Hebrew
f. German
h. Italian.

4. He was hung and then revived and burn to the fire stake. For translating the "Holy Scriptures" into the common "English language" HIs famous quote: "When i get through translating the "Holy Scriptures" a mere "Plough Boy" will know more about God than "The Pope of Rome"! "various documentation of that quote went around" and you can imagine why.

So when ever you "read the "KJV" that flavor and tone is not "Shakespearean" that flavor is "Tyndale". HIs dictionary is one of the 1st. and it's relationship is the English bible. and please do not bring up "Wycliffe" he is no match.

I am so sorry for the drifting away from the thread, for i have address "The Reformers" before on another Thread. sorry, I hope this information did not lead anyone astray in harm. Some Biographies are really good.

PS. sometimes i do not want to say anything, but I have my reasons to be frighten not to do so.

Well Ploughboy, you've wised me up on two points. 1 your name on this site and 2 an understanding of William Tyndale. He truly was a true Christian and worthy of honour. However I still disagree with him on his explanation of psalm 22. As for dictionaries, I have a wife who is a wordsmith and she keeps me right and I have the written Word of God that has all the answers I will ever need, but bless you for introducing me to you mentor William Tyndale a true man of note.

 

[Trevor]

As someone who has attended several different Bible schools, it has been my experience that everyone has a certain lean towards a specific commentary.

Some prefer Tyndale, but others prefer Cyrus Scofield, Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, and Dwight Moody have perhaps been the most prominent over the last few centuries.
Recently, more contemporary commentators have appears (and seemingly more extreme differences) John MacArthur, Joyce Meyers, J Vernon McGee, Max Lucado, John Walvoord and others
have become popular.

I do have several study Bibles that include commentaries from the "pre 20th Century" theologians, but the only "post 20th century versions I have are Charles Ryrie, and Billy Graham commentary sets.
But I tend to agree with Trevor here... I like to keep it "simple" without added cream and sugar. I read the commentaries, but rarely do they change my opinion, that is not to say they don't frequently give
added insight and perspective.

After reading the letters of our apostle Paul B.A.C, who introduced me to myself and the Words of Jesus himself who shows me the way, I find reading the understandings of others unnecessary. In saying that I have read a fare bit of Watchman Nee and he did open my eyes to his understandings of scripture that did expand my understanding of Paul and Jesus, so I suppose like all seekers I'll take the food where I can get it, but too many teachers would likely make me confused. bless you

 

[PloughBoy]

As someone who has attended several different Bible schools, it has been my experience that everyone has a certain lean towards a specific commentary.

Some prefer Tyndale, but others prefer Cyrus Scofield, Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, and Dwight Moody have perhaps been the most prominent over the last few centuries.
Recently, more contemporary commentators have appears (and seemingly more extreme differences) John MacArthur, Joyce Meyers, J Vernon McGee, Max Lucado, John Walvoord and others
have become popular.

I do have several study Bibles that include commentaries from the "pre 20th Century" theologians, but the only "post 20th century versions I have are Charles Ryrie, and Billy Graham commentary sets.
But I tend to agree with Trevor here... I like to keep it "simple" without added cream and sugar. I read the commentaries, but rarely do they change my opinion, that is not to say they don't frequently give
added insight and perspective.

And when you read the Biography's of "William Tyndale" and "JohnCalvin" they say stay away from them! commentaries are for lazy men. Coming out of thousands of pastors own mouth. "They buy sermons from one another. They are to busy to study, dinners, families, counseling, children, wives, friends, entertainment. rest, vacations. they do no have time to study and dig in out for themselves, No prayer deep prayer time. Most of them are to worry about that big Mortgage bill on that church, house and cars, college for kids, and the whole family on payroll. i am not complaining about their expenses, that is their business. They have no time, and too worried about the things of this world. They fight lust, the flesh, the world, and the devil too! "The pride of life". The Reformers address these things in their life stories.

Why do you think God sent "The Reformers"! The Hus, the Knox, Luther's, Calvin, Tyndale. Not for commentaries, to let common everyday people know they can get it themselves. You read Biography's,,,, The Bible is full of "Biographies"

These men do not point to themselves. God place them here for the "common" man and woman, and children. Children losing their lives violently for reading the bible and quoting scripture that these men provide for the common person.. Not commentaries!

The bible say: 1st hear the man before you judge. what has he done?

and for those who keep it simple, Our GOD is not SIMPLE, and I know ,the ones, I engage here on "TalkJesus" do not want a "Simple GOD"! For our God is "Complex" For we are in the business of knowing a "Complex God'! and in doing so, we "become Complex" ourselves. "For we are a Peculiar People"! and our language is strange to a dying world, that lies in darkness. We are "Children of Light" "and those who walk in darkness, comprehend us not" "For we are Children of The Living God" "A city that sits on a Hill"

New International Version
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

New Living Translation
But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception.

English Standard Version
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

For we all are one! Not by choice, But, elect of God.

 

[Butch5]

Actually Scripture says that God took --it was either Enoch or Elijah -- and he was gone with God. And I'm thinking there was another Old Testament saint who didn't die -- but God took him.

It says God translated Enoch. It means He moved him to another location, just like He did to Philip after he baptized the Eunuch. Elijah went up into the heavens, plural, the sky in a chariot. Elijah also wrote a letter to a king 15 years after he went up in the chariot so we know he didn't go to Heaven. As John said, no man has gone into Heaven, except Jesus.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb. 11:5 KJV)

12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a *******, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself: (2 Chr. 21:12-13 KJV)

 

[PloughBoy]

Well Ploughboy, you've wised me up on two points. 1 your name on this site and 2 an understanding of William Tyndale. He truly was a true Christian and worthy of honour. However I still disagree with him on his explanation of psalm 22. As for dictionaries, I have a wife who is a wordsmith and she keeps me right and I have the written Word of God that has all the answers I will ever need, but bless you for introducing me to you mentor William Tyndale a true man of note.

We do not agree with everyone. we all are sinners, We love King David, we cherish his writings, Solomon writings are in the BOOK, Samson is written in the NT "HALL of Faith", If the fallings of the Historic saints was not recorded i would not have made it this far. I guess we could label it, "The Grace of God". But wait until all Creation both visible and invisible will see the complete expression in pure form "THE FULL Manifestation of The Grace of GOD" This we be something that has never Existed. "The Manifestations of SONS OF THE LIVING GOD" There will be a "BRIGHTNESS THAT HAS NEVER EXISTED" The Radiance of Our Collective appearance. A place that had to be special made for us for all eternity with not 1 dull moment. We will not have to rest or sleep and we will be forever learning about GOD.

 

[Butch5]

A small technicality here... maybe it doesn't matter, but maybe it does.
Of the three humans who went to heaven (not counting Jesus)... Enoch, Elijah and Paul... none of them "died" in order to get there. Paul doesn't really count for two reason,
first he didn't know if he was really physically there, or just in spirit. Second, he didn't stay there, he returned to earth, to "die" at a later time.

Enoch never "died". The Bible specifically says so.

Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

So neither Enoch or Paul "died" in order to go to heaven. That leaves Elijah... we know he went to heaven... but did he "die"? The Bible doesn't specifically say he did.

2Kin 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
2Kin 2:12; Elisha saw it and cried out, "My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw Elijah no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces.

My "opinion" is that Elijah did not die.

There is the thief on the cross, but it doesn't say he went to heaven, it says he went to 'Paradise" which may or may not be heaven. Jewish tradition says that "paradise" (Abraham's Bosom) was in the Earth,
in Sheol, where Lazarus (the beggar) went.

Now for the reason that Enoch and Elijah didn't actually "die" a physical death. Many people speculate that they are the two "witnesses' in Revelation 11:3-12; ( Matt 17:11; )
Whoever the two witnesses are... they will die when they are done witnessing, after that it seems to will go (back?) to heaven.

Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration... ( Matt 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30; ) but we don't know where they came from, or where they went to.

Actually, Paul elaborates on Enoch and tells us that he was translated. Philip too, was translated after he baptized the Eunuch. The statement 'that he shouldn't see death' doesn't necessarily mean he didn't die. It's very possible and I would suggest likely that God simply moved him to another location because his life was in danger. Also, Paul indicates that Enoch did in fact die.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.1
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.1 (Heb. 11:5-13 KJV)

Paul writes that Enoch was translated so that he wouldn't see death and then a few verses later says these all died in faith, including Enoch. The logical conclusion is that the statement, 'he shouldn't see death' was referring to his immediate circumstances.

 

[Dave M]

Third, there quite a few verses that says God tests us. Some people will need to go through their hour of testing.
Jesus was tested, Abraham was tested, Peter was tested, and Paul was tested... it's a theme in the Bible.

yeap purification, maturing, growing in Christ, learning to trust God completely. the more I read the bible the more I see us going through tribulation and we should consider it a Joy to suffer for Christ, just as all the apostles died and suffered for Christ, why is that america thinks they get a free pass on the privilege to suffer for Christ??? purified and refined in Gods eyes is a little different then what most Christians in america think IMO All over the world Christians are dying for there faith, and we think we get a free pass from tribulation I dont know if we do or dont, but I am going to try to prepare myself like I have to go thorough it, and then if I am wrong that ok in the mean time I will be growing I pray to God. ,

 

[Sue D.]

Well -- as I read Scripture -- the 7 yrs. of tribulation are for the non-believing Jews -- so a Non-Jew won't be here. And I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior -- so I'll be amongst those raptured up and out of this messy world Before those 7 yrs. begin. I'm Swedish/ German -- non-Jewish.

 

[B-A-C]

the 7 yrs. of tribulation are for the non-believing Jews -- so a Non-Jew won't be here

Except that the Bible specifically says people from every tribe, nation, race and tongue will come out of the tribulation. And get white robes...

Revelation 7.
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and races and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Also if the "elect" are only Jews, that means only Jews are going to get raptured.

Matt 24.
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Mark 13:27; )

Also it would mean that "only Jews" are protected against God's judgment. Rom 8:33;

 

[Dave M]

Well -- as I read Scripture -- the 7 yrs. of tribulation are for the non-believing Jews -- so a Non-Jew won't be here. And I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior -- so I'll be amongst those raptured up and out of this messy world Before those 7 yrs. begin. I'm Swedish/ German -- non-Jewish.

I can respect your opinion I know it is a very popular one among american Christians. I dont see it. But what I do see in the very most mature Christians is they will NOT argue with there brothers and sister over eschatology or claim to be 100% correct, because the bible is not 100% clear on the timing of the rapture, I know we arnt arguing

but I dont see that through out scripture. I see promise after promise that we will suffer for Christ, and warning after warning to ENDURE to the end

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

John 12:25
Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.


2 Timothy 3:12
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

1 Peter 5:10
And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

1 Peter 2:21
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

2 Timothy 2:9
For which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!

2 Timothy 2:3
Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

 

[Sue D.]

Believers have been suffering for their faith since the beginning of time. There have been trials / tribulations for every believer for a long time. That's nothing new. People are being martyred for their faith in this present time in other countries.
Yes, those passages are all true. Both in the past, present and future.

The 'enduring to the End' -- maybe defining what the End means. The end of a person's Life? I don't foresee where anyone could live through the 7 yrs. of tribulation And live through the 1,000 yr reign of Christ and Then through the activities leading up to the Great White Throne judgement and to the Beginning of Eternity.

Then again -- a child born -- too young to really understand and then the rapture takes place. Born into a Jewish family. Maybe becomes one of the sealed Jews going through the 7 yrs. or is one of the Messianic Jews -- survives all of this and goes into the 1,000 reign People in the Old Testament living Before the flood, lived to be nearly 1,000 yrs. 960 yrs. was the longest that I can recall. So -- the End Could literally mean 'to the End' of time as we know it.

However -- I'm more inclined to think it Could mean more than one thing. So -- we Need to be prepared spiritually for Whatever comes to pass in our lives. Whether it refers to trials and tribulations here and now or.......... and ya know what? I suspect we won't even be aware of it until it Does happen. We can speculate all we want == but that doesn't affect God's plan at all. So whether we die today in a car wreck or have a stroke or Christ comes for us in the air -- Be Ready.

 

[Dave M]

Believers have been suffering for their faith since the beginning of time.

yes but not here in america for the most part,

 

[PloughBoy]

yes but not here in america for the most part,

I think you ought take a good look at "Black History" here in America.

 

[B-A-C]

I think you ought take a good look at "Black History" here in America.

Do you think blacks in America were enslaved because of their faith?
Typically blacks came from African slave trade, and they were only exposed to Christianity after they came to America.

 

[PloughBoy]

One thing i can say is a Lot of Blacks christians in the 20 century was slaughter abused, disfigured, and thought of as less of a individual by white christians. And many of those christian has testified that they were cruel and hateful and was taught to be that way by their christian parents. The civivl rights movement begin in the late 1940 and ended in about 1968 for equal rights. It was pure terror for for blacks christians in those years. burn down their churches, burn down your house with you and your kids in there, hang christians in neighborhood front yard, while family's would eat Popcorn and drink "Coke Cola"! Black Christians were the ones speaking up, about unrighteousness, they were called the trouble makes, Kill and wounded, kill the leader then you stop the movement. Known Fact. Now concerning slaves that i don't know nothing about. But i do know something about 20 century black christians. and 20 century black christians are in History! And i did not have to read about it in a history book.

 

[Sue D.]

Some of that was with 'witch burning' people suspected of being witches. What country did you grow up in. That does Not sound like U.S.A.

 

[PloughBoy]

No it sure do not sound like the USA. It sounds like "Mississippi", "Alabama"!