Free Will Facts
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Beetow
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Webster's defines "trump" as:
1» A card of a suit any of whose cards will win over a card that is not of this suit.
2» A decisive overriding factor or final resource.
3» To get the better of, i.e. override. conquer, crush, and/or defeat, etc.
Take for example John 3:17-18. In accord with God's free will; people who, of their free will, refuse to believe in His son, are already on the docket to face the sum of all fears.
"God didn't send His son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already.
Now right there is a clash of two free wills. Which of the two do you think will get its way in the end-- God's free will or the disbeliever's free will?
_
1» A card of a suit any of whose cards will win over a card that is not of this suit.
2» A decisive overriding factor or final resource.
3» To get the better of, i.e. override. conquer, crush, and/or defeat, etc.
Take for example John 3:17-18. In accord with God's free will; people who, of their free will, refuse to believe in His son, are already on the docket to face the sum of all fears.
"God didn't send His son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already.
Now right there is a clash of two free wills. Which of the two do you think will get its way in the end-- God's free will or the disbeliever's free will?
_
Curtis
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A person who is "condemned" comes from their own free will to choose death over life. It is not that they were not given two choices because they were. Light has come into the world but men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.
An "unbeliever" is someone who knows the truth but has decided to not believe what they know to be true.
To be an unbeliever is a free will choice that people make.
B-A-C
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One day....
Php 2:10; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
Php 2:11; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Rom 14:11; For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.”
One day everyone will give God praise, EVERY knee WILL bow.
On the meantime God's will is to see who will do it voluntarily.
Luke 13:34; O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
Was this because God (Jesus) didn't want them to, or because they chose not to? "would not have it".
Rev 2:21; I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Was this because God didn't want them to repent, or because they did not want to repent?
Rev 3:20; Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
If the door never gets opened, is it because Jesus didn't want it to be opened, or because you didn't open it?
1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
It says here God desires all men to be saved. Will all be saved?
2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
It says here He doesn't want any to perish. Will all be saved?
Matt 7:21; “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt 7:23; And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
It seems Jesus is saying here.. not everyone will do "the will of My Father". If they aren't doing God's will, who's will are they doing?
Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Matt 7:13; “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
So if 1Tim 2, and 2Pet3 says God wants everyone to be saved, why isn't everyone saved? Is Matt 7 and Luke 13 wrong?
Is it because God's will over-rides ours? Or is it because it's God's will is to see where our heart really is?
*warning* - this is a secular website. ... If You Love Something, Set It Free
I agree with hardly anything on this website, however it does explain why you have to let people make their own choice.
1 Cor 13:5; says loves "does not seek it's own way". It seems God loves us enough to let us choose our own path, even if that path is not His path.
Some people try to say sovereignty is tied to free will. I disagree. It has been argued by great theologians over the years.
Which is the greater God? One that requires you to do His will in order to remain God, or One who remains God no matter what you do?
Php 2:10; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
Php 2:11; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Rom 14:11; For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.”
One day everyone will give God praise, EVERY knee WILL bow.
On the meantime God's will is to see who will do it voluntarily.
Luke 13:34; O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
Was this because God (Jesus) didn't want them to, or because they chose not to? "would not have it".
Rev 2:21; I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Was this because God didn't want them to repent, or because they did not want to repent?
Rev 3:20; Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
If the door never gets opened, is it because Jesus didn't want it to be opened, or because you didn't open it?
1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
It says here God desires all men to be saved. Will all be saved?
2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
It says here He doesn't want any to perish. Will all be saved?
Matt 7:21; “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt 7:23; And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
It seems Jesus is saying here.. not everyone will do "the will of My Father". If they aren't doing God's will, who's will are they doing?
Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Matt 7:13; “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
So if 1Tim 2, and 2Pet3 says God wants everyone to be saved, why isn't everyone saved? Is Matt 7 and Luke 13 wrong?
Is it because God's will over-rides ours? Or is it because it's God's will is to see where our heart really is?
*warning* - this is a secular website. ... If You Love Something, Set It Free
I agree with hardly anything on this website, however it does explain why you have to let people make their own choice.
1 Cor 13:5; says loves "does not seek it's own way". It seems God loves us enough to let us choose our own path, even if that path is not His path.
Some people try to say sovereignty is tied to free will. I disagree. It has been argued by great theologians over the years.
Which is the greater God? One that requires you to do His will in order to remain God, or One who remains God no matter what you do?
B-A-C
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Of course there is one "nice thing" about believing God is in control of everything you do.
That means you can blame God for everytime you sin. After-all, He is in control of everything you do.
James 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1:14; But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
That means you can blame God for everytime you sin. After-all, He is in control of everything you do.
James 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1:14; But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
PloughBoy
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and people are you in agreement with this statement and have no strong argument! I am appalled and ashamed of my so called christian brothers and sisters that you have allowed such blasphemy of the Word of God! But you will attack me in full force for a sense of "arrogancy" i am ashamed you have drop so low.
Curtis statement is this: "The Lord God will never trump man's free will choice because God can not lie". I will say; he has post and stick his words with the "Word of God" in a dangerous and reckless way. And if my brothers and sisters have drop so low, that i have to prove the error of this. This is fallen to far and I will not take on the task and i will remain silent concerning this post and thread. I will humbly bow out.
Beetow
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An atheist once informed me that-- in his way of thinking --true free will
faces no penalties for the wrong choice. In other words; he felt that in order
for people to have true free will, they would have to be in sovereign control
of their lives.
Seeing as how God is going to get His own way in the end, then nobody
really has free will. People are given options, yes, but nobody yet has been
given personal sovereignty, i.e. autonomy. In other words; when people
have to answer to a higher power, they do not have true free will. They have
a will, yes, but it doesn't always get to have its own way. For example: I'm
quite certain that a number of people will be executed In the lake of fire
against their will.
_
An atheist once informed me that-- in his way of thinking --true free will
faces no penalties for the wrong choice. In other words; he felt that in order
for people to have true free will, they would have to be in sovereign control
of their lives.
Seeing as how God is going to get His own way in the end, then nobody
really has free will. People are given options, yes, but nobody yet has been
given personal sovereignty, i.e. autonomy. In other words; when people
have to answer to a higher power, they do not have true free will. They have
a will, yes, but it doesn't always get to have its own way. For example: I'm
quite certain that a number of people will be executed In the lake of fire
against their will.
_
Curtis
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Ae we now taking the word of an "atheist" for truth?
The truth is God has shown to every man born on earth that he exists.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
A liar is a person who knows the truth but refuses to believe it!
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
A person who does not believe God calls that person a "liar"!!
1Jn 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
All men are given a free will choice between life and death! There are no excuses!
B-A-C
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I could have an ant-farm. The ants can't leave the ant-farm, but they can do whatever they want in the glass case. I'm in control of them, I could kill them all if I wanted to.
I could have infants playing in a yard. I don't care to much whether they play with the blocks, the balls, or the stuffed animals. I do care if they head towards the street. I'm in control.
Being in control doesn't mean those you have "control of" don't have free will.
B-A-C
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There is a type of theology in Christianity called Molinism. I don't agree with all of it, but I could agree with some of it.
It goes something like this...
When I was child I read these "roll playing" books. I had maybe a dozen different ones. I could be a space pirate, or a cowboy, or a combat soldier in a war.
The books were usually pretty short, less than 100 pages long. But all through the book you had to make decisions.
For example you might read until page 5. The bad guys kidnapped your girl-friend, what do you do? Rescue her or run away?
If you run away, you die somewhere in the next 3 pages. If you save the girl, skip to page 8 and start reading from there.
In about 5 more pages you have to make another decision, do I jump off the cliff into the river, or do I stay and kill the lion with my knife?
..and so on.. and so on. Now these books might sound kind of cheesy, but this was before cable television, cell-phones, and the internet.
I read some of them quite a few times. I had most of the answers memorized.
In Molinism, they believe God writes your "book" so to speak.
You might move to Florida and marry Jane, or you might move to Texas and marry Linda. But you'll never move to Ohio and marry Brenda because
that's not a choice in your book.
You might become a Pastor in Peoria, or a Missionary in Michigan, but you'll never be a priest in Peru because it's not in your book.
Now the good thing about these books, was if you died, you could also flip ahead a few pages "and come back to life", at least until page 83 where you died again.
I don't know how many times I "died" before I started seeing the pattern. I wish real life was like that sometimes. But unfortunately we can't skip a few pages
and start all over again. (Sometimes we can).
The Molinists would say... God is in control, you can never do anything that isn't in your book. God wrote the book and He knows all the possible endings it could have.
But even so, all through the book you still make decisions. You can't make any decisions that aren't in your book, but you make plenty of decisions.
Most Molinists believe that somewhere in your book, God give you choice to accept Jesus or not. In fact, He may give you several chances to accept Jesus.
But somewhere... the book ends. Your life here on Earth in your physical body will end some day.
The question is... did you make the right decision before your book ended?
Like I said, I'm not sure I go along with all of it, but it does show how someone can make decisions, and God can still be in control.
Is it Biblical? The jury is still out.
It goes something like this...
When I was child I read these "roll playing" books. I had maybe a dozen different ones. I could be a space pirate, or a cowboy, or a combat soldier in a war.
The books were usually pretty short, less than 100 pages long. But all through the book you had to make decisions.
For example you might read until page 5. The bad guys kidnapped your girl-friend, what do you do? Rescue her or run away?
If you run away, you die somewhere in the next 3 pages. If you save the girl, skip to page 8 and start reading from there.
In about 5 more pages you have to make another decision, do I jump off the cliff into the river, or do I stay and kill the lion with my knife?
..and so on.. and so on. Now these books might sound kind of cheesy, but this was before cable television, cell-phones, and the internet.
I read some of them quite a few times. I had most of the answers memorized.
In Molinism, they believe God writes your "book" so to speak.
You might move to Florida and marry Jane, or you might move to Texas and marry Linda. But you'll never move to Ohio and marry Brenda because
that's not a choice in your book.
You might become a Pastor in Peoria, or a Missionary in Michigan, but you'll never be a priest in Peru because it's not in your book.
Now the good thing about these books, was if you died, you could also flip ahead a few pages "and come back to life", at least until page 83 where you died again.
I don't know how many times I "died" before I started seeing the pattern. I wish real life was like that sometimes. But unfortunately we can't skip a few pages
and start all over again. (Sometimes we can).
The Molinists would say... God is in control, you can never do anything that isn't in your book. God wrote the book and He knows all the possible endings it could have.
But even so, all through the book you still make decisions. You can't make any decisions that aren't in your book, but you make plenty of decisions.
Most Molinists believe that somewhere in your book, God give you choice to accept Jesus or not. In fact, He may give you several chances to accept Jesus.
But somewhere... the book ends. Your life here on Earth in your physical body will end some day.
The question is... did you make the right decision before your book ended?
Like I said, I'm not sure I go along with all of it, but it does show how someone can make decisions, and God can still be in control.
Is it Biblical? The jury is still out.
Beetow
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When I was still a young boy living at home, I once asked my mom this question: If
God already knows all my decisions before I make them, or even think about them,
then how do I have free will?
Well; mom was stumped; she didn't know what to say. But the answer is actually
very simple: The limited amount of free will that people are permitted to exercise
doesn't come with a right to privacy.
The future to God is like a really big colorful mural that some graffiti artist painted
on the side of a building. God can look at any part of the mural wherever,
whenever, He wants. God doesn't have to wait for the future to get here in order to
see it because the future is all right there on the side of that building in plain view,
viz: every man's future is all on file as if it's taken place already. Nothing that
anybody ever does, ever imagines, or ever says will take God by surprise and/or
bring Him up to date.
This situation is unacceptable to some folk because it makes them feel like their
lives are scripted; like a Broadway play, all written and choreographed for them to
act out. But we're not talking about fatalism here; we're talking about God is the
biggest snoop that there is; and we're talking about a worst case scenario of the
invasion of privacy imaginable.
_
When I was still a young boy living at home, I once asked my mom this question: If
God already knows all my decisions before I make them, or even think about them,
then how do I have free will?
Well; mom was stumped; she didn't know what to say. But the answer is actually
very simple: The limited amount of free will that people are permitted to exercise
doesn't come with a right to privacy.
The future to God is like a really big colorful mural that some graffiti artist painted
on the side of a building. God can look at any part of the mural wherever,
whenever, He wants. God doesn't have to wait for the future to get here in order to
see it because the future is all right there on the side of that building in plain view,
viz: every man's future is all on file as if it's taken place already. Nothing that
anybody ever does, ever imagines, or ever says will take God by surprise and/or
bring Him up to date.
This situation is unacceptable to some folk because it makes them feel like their
lives are scripted; like a Broadway play, all written and choreographed for them to
act out. But we're not talking about fatalism here; we're talking about God is the
biggest snoop that there is; and we're talking about a worst case scenario of the
invasion of privacy imaginable.
_
Last edited:
B-A-C
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Sometimes we confuse two things that have very little to do with each other. Knowing the future and "making" the future are two different things.
The other night I watched a movie with my wife. I had seen it before. She had never seen it. It was a romance movie, my wife said "She'll pick the blonde guy".
I said no, she won't pick the blonde guy or the brunette guy, she'll pick the nerdy guy who helped her carry her books. My wife looked at me like I was crazy.
About 30 minutes later, she asked me.. "How did you know, that guy was barely in the movie?" (up to that point).
Knowing what someone is going to do, doesn't mean you made them do it. I may know you're going to respond to this thread again.
But I didn't make you do it.
God may know everything we are going to do in the future, but that doesn't mean He made us make that choice.
The other night I watched a movie with my wife. I had seen it before. She had never seen it. It was a romance movie, my wife said "She'll pick the blonde guy".
I said no, she won't pick the blonde guy or the brunette guy, she'll pick the nerdy guy who helped her carry her books. My wife looked at me like I was crazy.
About 30 minutes later, she asked me.. "How did you know, that guy was barely in the movie?" (up to that point).
Knowing what someone is going to do, doesn't mean you made them do it. I may know you're going to respond to this thread again.
But I didn't make you do it.
God may know everything we are going to do in the future, but that doesn't mean He made us make that choice.
Beetow
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● Rom 8:29 . . . For those God whom foreknew, He also predestined to be
conformed to the likeness of His son,
Let's say, hypothetically, that I am one of those whom God foreknew. Well; why
wasn't I consulted before God proceeded conforming me to the likeness of His son?
Maybe I'd prefer to be conformed to Isaac's likeness. or Noah's. or Joseph's. But
nobody asked me; I was given no outs and no options. The likeness of His son has
been forced upon me without my consent.
That's a pretty good example of how God's free will trumps everybody else's free
will.
_
conformed to the likeness of His son,
Let's say, hypothetically, that I am one of those whom God foreknew. Well; why
wasn't I consulted before God proceeded conforming me to the likeness of His son?
Maybe I'd prefer to be conformed to Isaac's likeness. or Noah's. or Joseph's. But
nobody asked me; I was given no outs and no options. The likeness of His son has
been forced upon me without my consent.
That's a pretty good example of how God's free will trumps everybody else's free
will.
_
Curtis
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God "foreknew" what?
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Joh 2:24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
Joh 2:25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.
Act 1:24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
Mat 9:4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts?
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 18:4 Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?”
If you did not want to be "conformed" into the image God's Son then he would have already known you were an unbeliever of your own choice.
Nobody who is a believer would want to be conformed into any other image besides Issac, Joeseph, and Noah have been conformed into the image of the Son of God!
B-A-C
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Lets say I know you really really good. I know you love the Army, you are always talking about it.
You've never told me you are join the Army, but I know you are going to. You may not even know it yourself, but I know.
I didn't make the decision for you to join the Army, but I "foreknew" that you were going to.
Now that you've made that decision... it's "predestined" that you're going "to be conformed" to the likeness of a soldier.
You'll get a crewcut, wear a uniform, say yes sir and no sir, and eat KL rations.
Brother-Paul
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I agree fully with paragraph one brother.
But the next paragraph, although I know what you mean I don't believe is totally true.
Prior to accepting Christ, I was in total rejection, I wouldn't listen to anyone whom I called Bible bashers, God squad and much worse. So as an unbeliever I was not someone who knew the Truth and rejected it, I like others I know didn't want to know.
It was my choice, to reject, as scripture confirms... The Word is folly to those who are perishing...
Shalom
Curtis
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Every human being on planet earth was given enough of the light of God to know God exists.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
It is impossible to deny what God has revealed to ALL men. We might say we don't believe but that is just deceiving ourselves and going against our own conscience.
God calls men "liars" who say they do not believe!
1Jn 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Holding the truth in unrighteousness is knowing the truth but refusing to believe it.
This is why when a person hears the Gospel they know what they are hearing is true, but want to try and get away from hearing it because they know in themself it is true.
The Apostle Paul said he was alive once until he heard the truth which caused the sin within himself to come back to life and he died. This is why unsaved people do not want to hear the truth as they know it is true but they do not want to face they are in the wrong.
Rom 7:9 Once I was alive, but quite apart from and unconscious of the Law. But when the commandment came, sin lived again and I died (was sentenced by the Law to death).(AMP)
Beetow
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In that situation, the recruit's free will is in line with the Army's free will.
Now in the case of draftees, where people are inducted into the Army instead of
volunteering, their free will is not in line with the Army's free will, so we can
legitimately say that the Army's free will trumps the draftees' free will.
So, here's a question: Is there anything, anywhere, in the Bible that might suggest
there are occasions when God "drafts" people into following His son instead of
waiting for them to volunteer?
_
B-A-C
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Indeed, it seems there are. But there times when they don't do what He commands as well.
So does it have to be all or none? Or can it be both?
