What If I Was Born Dishonest?

[Beetow]

• Ps 58:3 . . The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go
astray from birth.

• Rev 21:8 . . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and
brimstone, which is the second death.
_

 

[Christ4Ever]

Rom 9:20 KJV - Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 KJV - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 KJV - [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 KJV - And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 KJV - Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[PloughBoy]

• Ps 58:3 . . The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go
astray from birth.

• Rev 21:8 . . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and
brimstone, which is the second death.
_

What If I Was Born Dishonest? You was Now, do not prove it before all.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

,
astray from birth.

• Rev 21:8 . . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and
brimstone, which is the second death.
_

You were born with a sinful nature, meaning you had a leaning toward sin...No different from the rest of us.

 

[Beetow]

• Rev 21:1-3 . . Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and
the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy
City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride
beautifully dressed for her husband.

• Rev 21:27 . . Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is
deceitful,

• Rev 22:15 . . Outside is everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Those passages are really bad news for natural-born liars because deception and
disinformation are pretty much the only way of life they know.

faq: What's on the "outside" referred to in Rev 22:15?

a: The sum of all fears.

• Rev 21:8 . . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and
brimstone, which is the second death.
_

 

[Dave L]

• Ps 58:3 . . The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go
astray from birth.

• Rev 21:8 . . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and
brimstone, which is the second death.
_

I was so relieved when I first heard the doctrine of Total Depravity. I thought it was just me. Whew.....

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I was so relieved when I first heard the doctrine of Total Depravity. I thought it was just me. Whew.....

Doctrine of Total Depravity? What's that?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

A man cannot sin without help...Satan and his cronies are the tempters, they entice us to sin. Without that temptataion we would not sin.

James 1:14-15
14 Rather, each person is being tempted whenever he is being dragged off and enticed by the bait of his own desire. 15 Then, having conceived, the desire gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.
It's Satan in the baby that teaches it to lie. We have what is called a sinful nature, which is simply a tendency to lean in that direction.

 

[Dave L]

Doctrine of Total Depravity? What's that?

From The Five Points of Calvinism

Total Depravity

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature; therefore, he will not—indeed he cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ—it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation—it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.

(Genesis 2:15-17, Romans 5:12, Psalm 51:5, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 3:10-18, Jeremiah 17:9, John 6:44, Ephesians 2:1-10)

The rest of the 5 if you are interested.

Unconditional Election

God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

(Romans 9:10-21, Ephesians 1:4-11, Ephesians 2:4-10, Romans 8:29-30, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48)

Limited Atonement

Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which united them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

(Matthew 1:21, Romans 5:12-21, Romans 3:21-26, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5-6, Philippians 1:6, John 10:11-30, John 17:6-12, Romans 8:28-30, John 6:44, Acts 20:28)

Irresistible Grace

In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected, it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

(John 3:16, Matthew 22:14, Acts 17:29-31, Matthew 23:37-39, John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, John 1:12-13, John 3:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-10)

Perseverance of the Saints

All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

(John 3:16, John 6:35-40, John 6:44, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12-13, Jude 24-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 8:35-39)

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

From The Five Points of Calvinism

Total Depravity

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature; therefore, he will not—indeed he cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ—it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation—it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.

(Genesis 2:15-17, Romans 5:12, Psalm 51:5, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 3:10-18, Jeremiah 17:9, John 6:44, Ephesians 2:1-10)

The rest of the 5 if you are interested.

Unconditional Election

God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

(Romans 9:10-21, Ephesians 1:4-11, Ephesians 2:4-10, Romans 8:29-30, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48)

Limited Atonement

Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which united them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

(Matthew 1:21, Romans 5:12-21, Romans 3:21-26, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5-6, Philippians 1:6, John 10:11-30, John 17:6-12, Romans 8:28-30, John 6:44, Acts 20:28)

Irresistible Grace

In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected, it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.



Perseverance of the Saints

All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

(John 3:16, John 6:35-40, John 6:44, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12-13, Jude 24-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 8:35-39)

Well I can agree with the first part...the rest? Well.....

 

[Dave L]

Well I can agree with the first part...the rest? Well.....

Study your bible. It's all there. This along with Luther's Bondage of the Will (= no free will) broke the back of the Catholic Church during the Reformation.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Study your bible. It's all there. This along with Luther's Bondage of the Will (= no free will) broke the back of the Catholic Church during the Reformation.

God did NOT decide to save only a specific group, then open the floor to the general population.... He offered salvation once and FOR ALL

"Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin ONCE: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God." Romans 6:9-10, KJV "But this man, [Jesus] because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did ONCE, when he offered up himself." Hebrews 7:24-27, KJV "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in ONCE into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 9:11-12, KJV "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself . . . So Christ was ONCE offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Hebrews 9:24-26, 28, KJV "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for all." Hebrews 10:10, KJV "For Christ also hath ONCE suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" 1 Peter 3:18, KJV ​

Now, there are NO verses in the entire bible that state otherwise..

 

[Dave L]

God did NOT decide to save only a specific group, then open the floor to the general population.... He offered salvation once and FOR ALL

"Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin ONCE: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God." Romans 6:9-10, KJV "But this man, [Jesus] because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did ONCE, when he offered up himself." Hebrews 7:24-27, KJV "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in ONCE into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 9:11-12, KJV "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself . . . So Christ was ONCE offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Hebrews 9:24-26, 28, KJV "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for all." Hebrews 10:10, KJV "For Christ also hath ONCE suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" 1 Peter 3:18, KJV

Now, there are NO verses in the entire bible that state otherwise..

Here are some verses that state otherwise.

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:28) (KJV 1900)

“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14) (KJV 1900)

“So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” (Hebrews 9:28) (KJV 1900)

“and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life—a ransom for many.”” (Matthew 20:27–28) (HCSB)

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)

“Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” Acts 2:47 (KJV 1900)

“I pray for them [the disciples]: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” John 17:9 (KJV 1900)

 

[twcstp111]

If you were born dishonest, then I will immediately share with you the whole truth: love ye one another.

 

[Ivan Chamurliev]

From The Five Points of Calvinism

Total Depravity

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature; therefore, he will not—indeed he cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ—it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation—it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.

(Genesis 2:15-17, Romans 5:12, Psalm 51:5, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 3:10-18, Jeremiah 17:9, John 6:44, Ephesians 2:1-10)

The rest of the 5 if you are interested.

Unconditional Election

God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

(Romans 9:10-21, Ephesians 1:4-11, Ephesians 2:4-10, Romans 8:29-30, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48)

Limited Atonement

Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which united them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

(Matthew 1:21, Romans 5:12-21, Romans 3:21-26, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5-6, Philippians 1:6, John 10:11-30, John 17:6-12, Romans 8:28-30, John 6:44, Acts 20:28)

Irresistible Grace

In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected, it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

(John 3:16, Matthew 22:14, Acts 17:29-31, Matthew 23:37-39, John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, John 1:12-13, John 3:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-10)

Perseverance of the Saints

All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

(John 3:16, John 6:35-40, John 6:44, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12-13, Jude 24-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 8:35-39)

I agree with you about everything, I just struggle to understand the limited atonement. I agree with the most points of the Calvinism, I just don't fully understand some of them.

 

[Ivan Chamurliev]

• Rev 21:1-3 . . Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and
the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy
City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride
beautifully dressed for her husband.

• Rev 21:27 . . Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is
deceitful,

• Rev 22:15 . . Outside is everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Those passages are really bad news for natural-born liars because deception and
disinformation are pretty much the only way of life they know.

faq: What's on the "outside" referred to in Rev 22:15?

a: The sum of all fears.

• Rev 21:8 . . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and
brimstone, which is the second death.
_

Hi Beetow. Do you mean that just some persons are naturally born liars or this applies to all of us?

Because I personally think that all of us are naturally born liars and sinners. Some of us develop it more through their lifestyle and some less, but all the persons fall into that number.
This doesn't take away that God in His grace and mercy can redeem the sinner, no matter how much he has sinned and accepting His grace the sinner changes and becomes a new creation in Jesus Christ and changes his lifestyle.
All of this happens obviously by God's power and work in his life.

 

[Dave L]

I agree with you about everything, I just struggle to understand the limited atonement. I agree with the most points of the Calvinism, I just don't fully understand some of them.

The mistake most make is in assuming "the whole world" means each and every person. If you were a first-century Jew, you would think instead that God is now including gentiles too. Because the promise to Abraham included gentiles.

The way it works out for you is if you trust in Christ, it is because he paid for your sins on the cross. Had he not, you could not believe.

 

[Ivan Chamurliev]

I

The mistake most make is in assuming "the whole world" means each and every person. If you were a first-century Jew, you would think instead that God is now including gentiles too. Because the promise to Abraham included gentiles.

The way it works out for you is if you trust in Christ, it is because he paid for your sins on the cross. Had he not, you could not believe.

I am sure that definitely not all the persons will get saved and faith is a gift from God, but I do believe that all people can have an opportunity and God's desire is for all to get saved and He wants to give them opportunity.
Unfortunately we know that not all will answer.
Why wouldn't they? In part this is a mystery and only God knows, but I think that our work and duty is to spread the gospel as much as we can.

 

[Dave L]

I

I am sure that definitely not all the persons will get saved and faith is a gift from God, but I do believe that all people can have an opportunity and God's desire is for all to get saved and He wants to give them opportunity.
Unfortunately we know that not all will answer.
Why wouldn't they? In part this is a mystery and only God knows, but I think that our work and duty is to spread the gospel as much as we can.

This is not true. People hate God and choose only idols in his name. They have no spiritual discernment. Only after God gives them a new heart can they know and love him personally.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

 

[Beetow]

Do you mean that just some persons are naturally born liars or this applies to all of
us

I'm pretty sure it applies to me because I was fully capable of dishonesty at a very
young age without any special training.

For example; when I was a pre-schooler back in the late 1940s, there wasn't as yet
any daytime television. Well; my favorite children's program came on at 5:00 pm.
It featured a marionette cowboy with little six shooters. So one day I got the bright
idea to adjust the clock by the tv ahead so my mom would think it was time to turn
on my cowboy. However, the only thing to watch before 5:00 pm back then was a
test pattern so it wasn't very long before my mom caught on to the ruse.
_