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Where in the Bible does it teach the imminent return of Christ?

During the tribulation the route (to Jesus) is via rejection of the mark of the beast, torture and death Matt 24:13, Rev 2:10. These are the ones mentioned in Rev 20:4 and we see them speak with God in span.bible { /*color: #D97070;*/ font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400; } span.bible a { /*color: #D97070;*/ /*background-color: #FFE9E9;*/ padding: 1px 4px; border-radius: 1px; } Rev 6:10-11 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

These are saints. part of the body of christ they are the church, the church is all over the book of revelation, the blood of the saints are all ever of the book of revelation.

so your saying these people died
Please note how the crown of life is dependant on being faithful unto death. This is not the case with Christians and if you think it is, the gospel of Jesus according to Paul has flown over your head.


yet we have Christains all over the world being killed for there faith in Jesus everyday, and also dying of disease every day, and natural causes everyday, it will be no different in tribulation, you making stuff up and adding to Gods word to make what you think is true work, only it does does not fit in what Gods word says. Jesus expects all his followers to ready to die for there faith. He set the example for us, and then most of the apostles set the example for us, it is the luke warm comfortable christian that thinks they are above dying for there faith.
 
The restrainer is the Holy Spirit because God is personally involved in what takes place on earth.

We see this with Job. God did not ask an angel to interact with the devil on Job.

Jesus restrained the devil in the wilderness. He ended the temptations at three and was only at the mercy of the wicked when ''His time'' had come.

The devil roams around looking for whom he can devour, who decides whom he can devour except for God?

If we look at how God removed the devil from heaven, we see He used an angel. So some can be forgiven for the thought that the restrainer could be an angel. But they miss the full picture. God did not want to get ''hands on'' with removing the devil. For me it points to Him showing respect to the devil. But on earth, the Holy Spirit is literally here. God has shown He wants to be ''hands on'' with us.

Now, one further fact to consider is that the anti-christ is in 100% opposition to the ''job'' of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. Fact. The Holy Spirit teaches us all about Jesus. Gives mankind a revelation of the ''true Christ''. 1 Cor 12:3 ''Nobody calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit''.

As such the anti-christ is in direct opposition to the work of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is most definitely the restrainer. Many say the church and saints are, but we are the product of the Holy Spirit at work.
'Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
.. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
.... as that the day of Christ is at hand.
...... Let no man deceive you by any means:
........ for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
.......... and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
............ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
.............. so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
.. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
.... For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
...... only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
........ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth,
.......... and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
............ Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,'

(2Thess. 2:1-9)

Hello @KingJ.I

Thank you for responding to my reply#32, and explaining your reasons for believing that the Holy Spirit is the One Who 'withholdeth' in 2 Thessalonians 2:6..

* Please bear with me a moment as I look at what is written in 2 Thessalonians. Paul had spoken to the Thessalonians face to face about the coming of the Lord, and had told them that before that day came, there would be a 'falling away' (ie., Gr. apostasia, or rebellion, a willful departure from truth). This is in accord with the teaching concerning the day of the Lord in the Old Testament. It is then that the man of sin will be revealed (ie., unveiled).

* As I have said in my response to @Brother Paul in reply #32, (quoteL):- ' It is assumed by many that when the 'rapture' takes place that the Holy Spirit departs from the earth, but if that were true, it means that believers such as the faithful Jewish remnant, who will have to live through this dreadful period, are left without the Holy Spirit's aid! Matthew 24:21-22 describes this period as a terrible time. If ever those who determine to be faithful whatever the cost, even life itself, will need the Holy Spirit, it is at such a time. '

' And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.'

(2 Thess. 2:6)

* The words, 'withholdeth' and 'letteth' in, Thess. 2:6-7 (KJV), are two words used to translate the Greek word 'Katecho', which means to hold firmly (ie., 'hold fast'), So,:-

'What' is it that 'holds fast' the man of sin? - and -
'Who' is it that holds 'something' fast in verse seven.?

* I believe the answer to the first question, re. 'what', is to be found in Revelation 9:1-2 & 11:-

'And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
And he opened the bottomless pit;
and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace;
and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.'

(Rev. 9:1-2)

'And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit,
whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.'

(Rev 9:11)

* The man of sin is 'held fast' by 'the bottomless pit' (or 'abyss'), until the' appointed season', or time of his manifestation to the world.

* The second question finds it's solution in Satan, who; holds fast' to his possessions, as 'prince of the power of the air' (Ephesians 2:2), 'Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:' until he is taken out of the way or removed. How this happens Revelation 12:7-17 describes. There is war in heaven; Michael and his angels fight against Satan and the fallen angels under his control, and the Deceiver is cast down to the earth with terrible results, leading to the Great Tribulation. When this happens, as a last desperate throw, Satan calls up his man from the abyss, and for a short time he dominates the whole world, Satan receiving, world worship through the Beast.

* This is what I believe to be the solution to both 'What' and 'Who' 'withholdeth', and 'letteth', in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
* As I have said in my response to @Brother Paul in reply #32, (quoteL):- ' It is assumed by many that when the 'rapture' takes place that the Holy Spirit departs from the earth, but if that were true, it means that believers such as the faithful Jewish remnant, who will have to live through this dreadful period, are left without the Holy Spirit's aid! Matthew 24:21-22 describes this period as a terrible time. If ever those who determine to be faithful whatever the cost, even life itself, will need the Holy Spirit, it is at such a time. '

The Holy Spirit leaving does not result in God abandoning those who come to Him during the tribulation. When has God ever abandoned His people?

We need to grasp God's ''means of interaction'' with mankind now and during the tribulation period.

With regards to the Holy Spirit, we know that when Jesus said He was leaving, many panicked. They saw Him crucified and feared for their lives. They knew the enemy was real and they wanted God's '''literal''' assistance. Jesus said ''relax, the Holy Spirit will come, the comforter and will lead them / us into all truth. Empower us''. The Holy Spirit came and miracles took place. But this kind of assistance from God was completely different to that of the Jews prior to Jesus. Every Christian receives power / works with the Holy Spirit / is never abandoned by God / the Holy Spirit.

Prior to Jesus Jews had high priests that would go beyond the veil and hear directly from God. When Jews needed it, God empowered a prophet to lead them. Consider Moses who parted the red sea. Elijah who comforted them when they were sieged and starved for so long. God telling Him the exact day that they would be released. God Himself dropping mana for them in the wilderness.

The tribulation period is a different period to now. The time for people to come to God via faith in Jesus after a revelation from the Holy Spirit, ends.

Now, people get to heaven by rejecting the mark of the beast and dying for it. Please understand this. It does not matter how much you believe in Jesus being Lord, how much faith you can muster up, how many times you get baptised in public. During the tribulation, only rejecting the mark of the beast and death gets you saved.

As such, the Holy Spirit will not be needed to test anyone's heart and give those who repent truthfully a revelation of Jesus 1 Cor 12:3.

God helps those who come to Him during the tribulation by: providing 144 000 Jewish preachers that will have power, two witness that directly oppose the anti-christ and He tells us that if we endure ten days of torture and then death we will be saved Rev 2:10.

When people get to heaven they are terribly upset with those that killed them. They want God to get vengeance immediately Rev 6:10. It will not be a nice time for anyone despite there being preachers and the two witnesses.

I do believe that just as God was with Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego in the fire, so too will He be those who are killed during the tribulation. Many testimonies of God's assistance will come to heaven. There was no 'Holy Spirit' with them three, Jesus was with them Dan 3:25.

To assume the Holy Spirit stays here is to not grasp what a Christian is. A person empowered by the Holy Spirit will stop the anti-christ. Think on this. God is not going to empower anyone outside of the two witnesses and the 144 000. These people will grasp their purpose and confine to God's will. A Christian, will be casting out demons left, right and center. A Christian will be joining groups for prayer to outright stop the anti-christ. Christians can achieve amazing results as they work with the Holy Spirit. They are not trained and ready for a period where the devil will have full reign.

Christians will feel utterly betrayed by God if the devil is given power over them. Fact. Christians will only endure persecution at the hands of wicked people. This does take place. No Christians will escape persecution. But they will not be under the authority of the devil as long as the Holy Spirit is with them. You need to try better grasp 'what' a Christian is.
 
* The words, 'withholdeth' and 'letteth' in, Thess. 2:6-7 (KJV), are two words used to translate the Greek word 'Katecho', which means to hold firmly (ie., 'hold fast'), So,:-
The meaning remains the same. Someone has to be behind the restraining. The only being this can be is the Holy Spirit. I assume from the rest of your post that you imply this be an abyss?

* The man of sin is 'held fast' by 'the bottomless pit' (or 'abyss'), until the' appointed season', or time of his manifestation to the world.

* The second question finds it's solution in Satan, who; holds fast' to his possessions, as 'prince of the power of the air' (Ephesians 2:2), 'Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:' until he is taken out of the way or removed. How this happens Revelation 12:7-17 describes. There is war in heaven; Michael and his angels fight against Satan and the fallen angels under his control, and the Deceiver is cast down to the earth with terrible results, leading to the Great Tribulation. When this happens, as a last desperate throw, Satan calls up his man from the abyss, and for a short time he dominates the whole world, Satan receiving, world worship through the Beast.

* This is what I believe to be the solution to both 'What' and 'Who' 'withholdeth', and 'letteth', in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
The war in heaven speaks to when satan was cast out of heaven.

Rev 12 speaks to events that have already taken place. The devil tried to stop Jesus.

As for the abyss, what scripture are you quoting? The only one that comes to mind is this one:

Satan is put into an abyss for 1000 years and then taken out to tempt mankind for the last time. This is toward the end of millennium when we reign with Jesus, not the tribulation. Rev 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
 
These are saints. part of the body of christ they are the church, the church is all over the book of revelation, the blood of the saints are all ever of the book of revelation.

Everyone who comes to Jesus is a saint. Of course there will be churches in the tribulation. This changes nothing in my post.

so your saying these people died

yet we have Christains all over the world being killed for there faith in Jesus everyday, and also dying of disease every day, and natural causes everyday, it will be no different in tribulation, you making stuff up and adding to Gods word to make what you think is true work, only it does does not fit in what Gods word says. Jesus expects all his followers to ready to die for there faith. He set the example for us, and then most of the apostles set the example for us, it is the luke warm comfortable christian that thinks they are above dying for there faith.

Yes, it will be different in the tribulation. Yes, many die today for their faith. The issue that you seem unable to grasp is that today, it is not their death that justifies them. God will not say to a Christian in a Muslim country, well done, because you died for my name's sake you will have this robe. A Christian has a robe because they are a Christian. During the tribulation, however, it is their death that gets them the robe Rev 2:10.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life
 
Just one more important fact to grasp on this topic. There is no need for God to test the dedication of a Christian. A fake Christian or a non - Christian, sure.

This is why the only people who seem unable to accept a rapture event are those who believe we are being saved. We need a works based salvation.
 
There is no need for God to test the dedication of a Christian.

that is wear you are wrong the whole book of revelation is a test for the saints, like the luke warm church, please dont say these are tribulation saints that is made term and appears no wear in in the bible,

Romans 12:12
Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.

Revelation 3:21
The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Revelation 3:19
Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.
 
that is wear you are wrong the whole book of revelation is a test for the saints, like the luke warm church, please dont say these are tribulation saints that is made term and appears no wear in in the bible,
1. Wear = where.
2. Luke warm are not ready for a rapture, correct. The parable of the ten virgins explains this.
3. What are they if not tribulation saints? You and I will socialise with them in heaven, they are one of us.

As for the scripture you quoted, it is truly beyond me how you not grasp that a Christian does not need to be further tested.
 
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As for the scripture you quoted, it is truly beyond me how you not grasp that a Christian does not need to be further tested.

I am saying a christian will be test to death, you are saying a christian will escape, big difference. What does the bible say Jesus own words to his church be faithful to death,,, so the question to you is wear in the bible does it say a christian does NOT NEED TO BE TESTED FURTHER????? once you answer this with scripture we will be closer to the truth. as I gave you scripture in Jesus own words saying tested to death. our flesh will make us want to think of the easy way, it our spirit that testifies to us that the hard way will make us much better followers of Christ . As a matter of fact the whole NT says we need be tested and that trials and tribulation and endurance to the end is the common theme through out the bible, NOT ESCAPE John 16:33, Matthew 24:21, James 1:2-4 , Romans 5:3-5 I could list many more scripture that tells us to count it a joy in suffering, not escape



Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.


There is a parable you should consider and that of the wheat and tars he will gather them up at the end of the age at the same time, not one before the other.

Parable of the Weeds.... Explained
24. Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25. But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away.
26. When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared.
27. The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28‘. An enemy did this,’ he replied.So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29. ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them.
30. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”


36. Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37. He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
39. and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40. As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
41. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness.
42. And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
f

He who has ears, let him hear.
 
The church that is ready is raptured, the church that is not ready stays behind for a second chance.

let me ask you this, so in your theory when the church is raptured out do all the church alive at the time, and dead at the time get glorified bodies??
 
I am saying a christian will be test to death, you are saying a christian will escape, big difference. What does the bible say Jesus own words to his church be faithful to death,,, so the question to you is wear in the bible does it say a christian does NOT NEED TO BE TESTED FURTHER????? once you answer this with scripture we will be closer to the truth. as I gave you scripture in Jesus own words saying tested to death. our flesh will make us want to think of the easy way, it our spirit that testifies to us that the hard way will make us much better followers of Christ . As a matter of fact the whole NT says we need be tested and that trials and tribulation and endurance to the end is the common theme through out the bible, NOT ESCAPE John 16:33, Matthew 24:21, James 1:2-4 , Romans 5:3-5 I could list many more scripture that tells us to count it a joy in suffering, not escape



Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.


There is a parable you should consider and that of the wheat and tars he will gather them up at the end of the age at the same time, not one before the other.

Parable of the Weeds.... Explained
24. Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25. But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away.
26. When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared.
27. The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28‘. An enemy did this,’ he replied.So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29. ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them.
30. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”


36. Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37. He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
39. and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40. As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
41. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness.
42. And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
f

He who has ears, let him hear.
Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

Paul would address all in attendance at meetings as brothers and sisters. He let his teaching on sin separate Christians from Christians. We see this in 1 Cor 5:1 where he singles out a ''brother'' guilty of incest. Says we must not even eat with that person 1 Cor 5:11. Note how he says such person is a ''brother so called''. IE in title only. Paul knew this person was not a Christian.

As for your scriptures, at the time of Jesus there was no such thing as a Christian. Jesus gave valid and true parables, but not directly applicable to the Christian salvation message. Rev 2:10 speaks to those in the tribulation, living after the ''Christian'' era. A return to works 'era'. Faith means naught. Salvation is only obtained by death.

_______________________________________

I don' want your thread hijacked into a discussion on OSAS. So I will try be short and appeal to your common sense with these three facts.

1. Does God make mistakes?

Did God make a mistake when He cast the devil out of heaven? No, the answer is a resounding no. God does not make mistakes. God does not make the mistake of keeping someone like the devil who has no intention of ever truly repenting of sin, in heaven.

Likewise, God does not make the mistake of grafting into His vine, someone not truly desirous of repentance and walking an upright life.

2. How many times did Jesus need to die for our sins?

How many times does Jesus need to die for us to know He loves us? One, two, three. Many times? The answer is one. As the action of laying your life down is the greatest sign of ones love John 15:13.

That is why it is / should be common practice to be faithful to someone your entire life after marriage. A single action can show a depth of intent.

Likewise, a revelation of Jesus by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3, only takes place when our hearts are judged by God (who does not make mistakes) Jer 17:9, for sincerity of repentance. This is why, God can graft us into His vine, into eternal life, into fellowship with God, after ''one'' act of kneeling before Jesus.

Likewise, in the tribulation, a single act of accepting the mark of the beast tells God all He needs to know about your heart.

3. Will we ever be perfect like God?

The answer is a resounding no! Mark 10:18 makes it clear that ''only'' God is good. The context is perfect. Only God is perfect, will never make a mistake. Christians are perfect to God, but not perfect like God. Fact.

We see that angels in heaven still have imperfections. That is why we will judge them 1 Cor 6:3. Humans too. So if you are looking to prove yourself to God by being without imperfections, you will likely be working on that for all eternity.
 
let me ask you this, so in your theory when the church is raptured out do all the church alive at the time, and dead at the time get glorified bodies??
I am a bit blurry on some of the ''sleeping dead'' scripture. But what I do know is this:

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And Rev 6:10 speaks of those martyred during the tribulation speaking to God and receiving a robe from Him.

Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

They wait, not for a resurrection or their robe, but for God's retribution on those who killed them.
 
They wait, not for a resurrection or their robe, but for God's retribution on those who killed them.

the pre trib theory says the whole church gets glorified bodies at the time of the rapture so they can attend the wedding feast together, while the tribulation is going on, just be clear they say the people who alive get raptured and glorified bodies, and the people in the church that are dead get glorified at the time of the rapture also actually before the rapture occurs,

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
 
the pre trib theory says the whole church gets glorified bodies at the time of the rapture so they can attend the wedding feast together, while the tribulation is going on
A wedding feast makes perfect sense. We meet Jesus and celebrate. Those who die during the tribulation will come and join in.
 
Those who die during the tribulation will come and join in.

see brother as nice as that sounds, it simply is your own thoughts and not biblical at all. During tribulation we have souls that are under the alter that came directly out of tribulation, they are not at a wedding feast, as a matter fact the wedding feast is not mentioned at all during the tribulation, it mentioned at the very end of the book. And when these souls do come to life it does not say they go to awedding feast it says they go with Christ to rule.

Revelation 20
4. Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I
 
Here is a question for the Pre tribbers,

Did the apostles expect Jesus to return at any moment ???


thanks
 
Here is a question for the Pre tribbers,

Did the apostles expect Jesus to return at any moment ???


thanks

Sorry...I was unable to edit and finish the last attempt. IMHO it was yet future though thought of as possibly very near. The great falling away and the reveaaling of that man of sin (anti-Christ) could occur starting at any time. His return would follow a period where the Anti-Christ rules and reigns during which the saints are persecuted. You get this same sense when you read the pre-Nicene early church writers
 
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