Can Salvation Be lost?

[B-A-C]

And the good soil produced those that are once saved always saved.

Ok, I agree, some are. Some people stay saved. No argument with that.
But some do not "stay saved". They believe for a while... or they quit bearing fruit.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Deu_32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Jdg_2:12 and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdg_2:13 So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
Jdg_10:6 Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.
1Ki_9:9 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Ki_17:16 They forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God and made for themselves molten images, even two calves, and made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal.
2Ki_21:22 So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.
1Ch_10:7 When all the men of Israel who were in the valley saw that they had fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, they forsook their cities and fled; and the Philistines came and lived in them.
2Ch_7:22 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers who brought them from the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Ch_12:1 When the kingdom of Rehoboam was established and strong, he and all Israel with him forsook the law of the LORD.
Isa_54:7 "For a brief moment I forsook you, But with great compassion I will gather you.
Jer_22:9 "Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD their God and bowed down to other gods and served them.'"

All that you've cited clearly points to those that do not truly have faith, trust, and rest in the LORD. They were not truly saved if they forsook the LORD.

 

[Butch5]

No, Jesus clearly says in Matthew 13 some are once saved always saved. You can quit now.

There is nothing that says people are once saved always saved. You say you accept Jesus' words and yet ignore his statement about those who fall away.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Ok, I agree, some are. Some people stay saved. No argument with that.
But some do not "stay saved". They believe for a while... or they quit bearing fruit.

Yes, once saved always saved are the few that find the strait gate and enter into it.

 

[B-A-C]

All that you've cited clearly points to those that do not truly have faith, trust, and rest in the LORD. They were not truly saved if they forsook the LORD.

Forsaking - betrayal requires a relationship.

If I was never engaged to a woman, or married to her, I can't forsake her. There was nothing to forsake or betray.
But if I was married to her, and then committed adultery with another woman, or decided to leaver her... then I could forsake her.

If you never knew God, you can't forsake Him.

 

[JerryfromMass]

There is nothing that says people are once saved always saved. You say you accept Jesus' words and yet ignore his statement about those who fall away.

Those who fall away were never truly saved, but those who remain (the goid soil) are once saved always saved.

 

[Butch5]

Brother, you have clearly stated the proposition that those who fall away were never truly saved: "it's a deliberate turning your back of God. It's a lifestyle of sin, and choosing to go back to that over God. You don't have to fear or dread accidentally "losing" your salvation on an accident. It's a conscious choice, a deliberate action. I choose sin over you Jesus." These are those that don't truly appreciate the gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. They were never truly saved.

Someone truly once saved always saved understands the precious gift they've received and they hold tightly to it forever.

Can you read minds? How do you know they were never really saved? That's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. A Christian can't lose his salvation. Some Christians turned away. Well, they weren't real Christians.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Forsaking - betrayal requires a relationship.

If I was never engaged to a woman, or married to her, I can't forsake her. There was nothing to forsake or betray.
But if I was married to her, and then committed adultery with another woman, or decided to leaver her... then I could forsake her.

If you never knew God, you can't forsake Him.

Yes, you can know who the Lord is, you can hear his words, many followed Him from town to town to hear Him speak and watch Him work, the words of the Lord can cause you to go through an emotional experience, you might even say to yourself "I believe", yet even the devil and his demons believe. Having a relationship with the Lord requires faith, trust, and rest in the Lord and in all that HE teaches and commands, for forgiveness and for salvation, and this sort of relationship means so much more than simply knowing and believing. Those that are truly saved, who truly put their faith trust and rest in the Lord, and follow HIM and obey HIM and stay with HIM are once saved always saved.

 

[Butch5]

Those who fall away were never truly saved, but those who remain (the goid soil) are once saved always saved.

You're imposing your beliefs on others. You have no way to know what others believe. You don't know who is truly saved. You're simply defining who is and isn't a Christian based on your interpretation of what a Christian is. Sorry, but that doesn't fly.

 

[B-A-C]

1Kin 3:3; Now Solomon loved the LORD, walking in the statutes of his father David, except he sacrificed and burned incense on the high places.
1Kin 3:4; The king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there, for that was the great high place; Solomon offered a thousand burnt offerings on that altar.
1Kin 3:5; In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream at night; and God said, "Ask what you wish me to give you."

Did Solomon know God?

1Kin 11:4; For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5; For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6; Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
1Kin 11:7; Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[joestue]

A widow should be enrolled if she is at least sixty years old, the wife of one man, 10and well known for good deeds such as bringing up children, entertaining strangers, washing the feet of the saints, imparting relief to the afflicted, and devoting herself to every good work.

11But refuse to enroll younger widows. For when their passions draw them away from Christ, they will want to marry, 12and thus will incur judgment because they are setting aside their first faith. 13At the same time they will also learn to be idle, going from house to house and being not only idle, but also gossips and busybodies, discussing things they should not mention.

14So I advise the younger widows to marry, have children, and manage their households, denying the adversary occasion for slander. 15For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.

 

[KingJ]

I do not understand why people think or believe God can loose what is His .

Agreed.

When scripture says we are made new creations, grafted into the vine and receive eternal life. What it means is that we are we are made new creations, grafted into the vine and receive eternal life.

 

[KingJ]

Because salvation is not for robots - we have free will just like the angels to choose between good and evil - to choose between faithfulness and giving up.
Christians who stop living the gospel lose God.

You are mixing apples and oranges.

All angels and mankind have free will from day 1 to eternity. A good God can never remove free will from a highly intelligent creation if He wants to continue in ''being righteous in all His ways'' Psalm 145:17 / being good.

Salvation is an event that takes place after we have from free will '''made''' a decision sincere and true, to serve and follow Jesus. A Matt 16:24 type decision. A Psalm 51:17 type decision. A Rev 2:10 type decision.

Salvation is a gift given to those who by their actions and hearts desire prove they ''want'' to be with God in that they hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9.

Once a person therefore receives salvation, our intent to serve God, to be with God is ''''''known'''''''''. There is no more '''becoming known'''. We are now '''known''' by Him. Grafted in.

You are living as though you are not saved. There is no works attached to salvation. Works and heart intent exist only before salvation. Before God grafts people in.

This is why the statement that '''God is not a fool who grafts devils into His vine''' is so true.

Just as God did ''not'' make a mistake removing the devil from heaven, likewise God does not make the mistake of grafting a devil into heaven.

 

[KingJ]

I don't see an argument for OSAS here. If we accept your premise that the thief was instantly saved. It doesn't prove that others can't be lost

If others can be lost, God would be partial. You believe God is partial?

This argument is the the fallacy of "Hasty Generalization". However, Even if God was partial (He's not) this doesn't even address the OSAS issue.

If we who do more for God, more then the criminal next to Jesus did. Do so at the risk of being ''lost'', it would make God partial. You believe God is partial?

I see you say He is not, yet you disagree with my point. Please explain.....

How it is that God says to person A, you will die after this single decision and go to eternal bliss and then to person B, you will stay on earth and serve me for fifty years at the risk of losing your salvation and going to hell for all eternity / or as with your belief, utterly annihilation.

Gee God, no partiality there whatsoever......

This is the fallacy of "Unwarranted Assumption". You have no way of knowing if fallen angels will ever desire true repentance. And, there is no OSAS argument here.

What nonsense.

Scripture is crystal clear that fallen angels will go to hell for all eternity.

The OSAS argument is that if God can remove beings for all eternity, He can accept beings for all eternity.

Again, there is no OSAS argument here.

Seriously? Well then I guess you believe even if we make it to heaven, God's love may run out and one-day we will be booted from heaven.

I would be careful of saying NOSAS believers aren't capable of a logical thought. There are several fallacies in this post and no argument showing one can't be lost.

This is hilarious. You have just proven my point.

You make short opinionated statements with no attempt at a rebuttal.

You basically just trolled my post. I feel like you need to go to the dictionary and read the definition of partiality and then come back and have a proper discussion.

 

[KingJ]

I don't think it's going to matter how much Scripture is posted. I've come to believe that OSAS is a fear driven doctrine. If that's correct and it's emotional it's not going to change.

Fear driven? I would think anti-OSAS is a fear driven doctrine.

 

[Butch5]

If others can be lost, God would be partial. You believe God is partial?



If we who do more for God, more then the criminal next to Jesus did. Do so at the risk of being ''lost'', it would make God partial. You believe God is partial?

I see you say He is not, yet you disagree with my point. Please explain.....

How it is that God says to person A, you will die after this single decision and go to eternal bliss and then to person B, you will stay on earth and serve me for fifty years at the risk of losing your salvation and going to hell for all eternity / or as with your belief, utterly annihilation.

Gee God, no partiality there whatsoever......

You're basing you argument on the idea that God determines when people die. You'd have to establish that from Scripture. But, even so, that doesn't make God partial. Everyone is saved on the same basis, faith.

What nonsense.

Scripture is crystal clear that fallen angels will go to hell for all eternity.

That may be so, but that's not what you said, You said no fallen angel would ever desire true repentance. You have no way of knowing that.

The OSAS argument is that if God can remove beings for all eternity, He can accept beings for all eternity.

Sure, and He does. However, accepting people for all eternity doesn't mean they can't be lost before they get there.

Seriously? Well then I guess you believe even if we make it to heaven, God's love may run out and one-day we will be booted from heaven.

What does this have to do with OSAS?

This is hilarious. You have just proven my point.

You make short opinionated statements with no attempt at a rebuttal.

You basically just trolled my post. I feel like you need to go to the dictionary and read the definition of partiality and then come back and have a proper discussion.

I simply pointed out the fallacies in you arguments. Since they're fallacious, there's an error in reasoning. There's not really any reason for me to address the errors. If you want to make some valid arguments I'd be glad to address them. Since you said you had hundreds I'm sure you can come up with some valid ones.

No, I didn't troll your post. You said no one could give a logical response. Well, the arguments aren't logical. Why do you expect a logical response to illogical arguments?

 

[Br. Bear]

Brother, "those who trusted the person leading them, continued on" were the one's who had faith, trust, and rest in their commanding officer: they were once saved always saved.

glad you know how the story ends....

perhaps one could liken it to conception in the womb? Baby is there and alive... but not yet born, but alive, nonetheless.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Downunder]

 

[complete]

Php 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
Php 3:11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
Php 3:16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

Php 1:6; says the work is started, but it doesn't say it is done. Paul acknowledges it isn't done yet. He also says we have to do our part in the next chapter.

Php 2:12; So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Hello @B-A-C.

I was not going to take part in the thread any further, but this beautiful entry could not be ignored. Thank you for quoting it.

Yes, Paul desired to win the prize, of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. The reward, prize or crown can be lost, but not the promise of life in Christ Jesus. He wasn't running the race in order to win salvation, for that is assured already, in Christ Jesus. He sought to 'work out' in practice, what God, in His abundance of mercy and grace had already 'worked in'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

This is how the discussions usually end. The point is never proven. And I need to rightly divide the word so I can see the truth. Oh, how many times am I going to hear that in the OSAS discussions?

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, you probably have heard of the need to rightly divide the word of Truth reiterated more than once, and sometimes it can be said simply to act as a shield of defence by the one who says it, to simply deflect the argument away from himself. I know, because I have had it said to me too. It can become a convenient opt out for someone who either has not got the time to explain himself, or the desire to do so. However, in this case, in regard to the choice of verse you quoted, it was a fair statement, and one worth heeding.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris