Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Trinity

3. Jesus indirectly claims to be Yahweh God in the flesh:


Matthew 12:6

But I tell you, one who is greater than the temple is here.


The temple of God was God’s dwelling place on earth. The ONLY one who could be greater than God’s temple, was Yahweh Himself. The priests in the temple, performing the daily venues of temple worship (worship in the temple, not that they were actually worshipping the temple), shows that the temple was not subservient to the sabbath.

This is an ablative comparison between the greater-ness of God over His temple, another indirect claim that Jesus made regarding Himself as being Yahweh in the flesh – “One who is greater than the temple is here,” speaking of Himself. Speaking of Himself as the God of the temple...which is made more evident in verse 8...


Matthew 12:8*
“Because the Lord of the Sabbath is the Son of Man.”


What does “Lord of the Sabbath” mean? It means that the Lord Christ was over the Sabbath, and as commencing over the Sabbath, He was not amendable to it. Jesus says that the Son of Man is the Lord over the Sabbath, but God is the one who instituted it and handed down to Moses the rule of law regarding the Sabbath. He created the Sabbath, and therefore has the right (the only right) to hand down any rule of law having to do with the Sabbath. Here, again, Jesus demonstrates that He is God in the flesh, because only God is above the Sabbath that He ordained for men.

Yet Jesus also says that He is greater than the temple, because this second temple had not the ark of the covenant whereupon God’s presence rested – yet He Himself was the presence of God in their day but they refused to acknowledge that fact because of their bias and greed for power in their present religious system.

The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath - Notice that the word Lord is the first word in the Greek sentence which gives strong emphasis to His Lordship. Son of Man is clearly a Messianic title. He had used this same Name in Matthew 9 where He had first forgiven the lame man's sins and then authenticated His authority to forgive sins by healing him declaring "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” (Mt 9:6). In that passage He left no doubt that He was not just claiming to be God, but that He was in fact God, for no mere man could heal a lame man. So the Pharisees were aware of the significance of His use of the term Son of Man in this passage. He was saying in essence "I am God and I am the Lord of the Sabbath!" And because of Who Jesus is He could determine what the rules for Sabbath observance should be! The implication also is that as the One Who instituted the Sabbath, He knows the correct meaning of the Sabbath...

it would have been impossible for the Pharisees to miss Jesus’ clear declaration of divinity and His declaration as the One having authority over the Sabbath! Why is Jesus making this statement which is found in each synoptic account? Remember He is still addressing the accusation of the Pharisees that His disciples broke the Sabbath law. Since Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, He alone has the authority to interpret the law. He is saying that He is Sovereign Ruler over the Sabbath day. He is the Master of this day for He as Creator made it. [preceptaustin.org/ matthew-12-commentary]

Jesus repeatedly ignored all of the Pharisees rules concerning the sabbath observance – not the sabbath laws themselves as originally given by God to Moses, but the Pharisaic rules they burdened people with that arose after the destruction of the temple of God. The sect of the Pharisees arose during what is called the Intertestamental Period (between the last OT book of Malachi, and the first NT book of Matthew), where Scripture does not cover.

Although the documents from this period of time are extrabiblical, they give us a great deal of information on how the Judaism of the first century came about – which was not the Judaism that God handed down to Moses for Israel to follow. During this time period, because Judaism was centered around temple worship but the temple had been destroyed by the Babylonians, a more law-enforced obedience doctrine arose surrounding the concept of the Synagogue, which had not been abandoned once the temple had been rebuilt.

Basically, Jesus asserts that He is the master of the sabbath because He was the one in the past who handed down the sabbath laws to Moses at Mt. Sinai...


“In case the Pharisees mistook his lack of reverence to their rules for ignorance he added: ‘The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath’ (Matt 12:8). That is, he will decide what is legal and what fulfills God’s will for the Sabbath. But who has the right to declare the one correct interpretation of God’s law? God alone. Therefore, by claiming to provide the correct interpretation of God’s law, Jesus asserts his deity.” [The Deity of Christ in the Synoptic Gospels; Daniel Doriani; JETS 37/3 (September 1994) pg. 343] (emphasis mine)




4. Jesus is Yahweh in the flesh, demonstrated by things that He did and said:


- He received religious worship (not as homage to a king):


Matthew 14:27-33*

But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take courage! I AM! Do not be afraid” ...And those in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are truly the Son of God!”


First, we need to get the background on this text. The disciples were out in a boat in the middle of the lake, in the middle of a storm – seasoned fishermen all, fearful that their boat would flounder and they would drown. Then, Jesus comes walking to them upon the sea, something no mere human being could do. Then He calls out to them, “Take courage! I AM!...”

To those who delight in perverting the Word of God, they will say that He actually says “I am He,” which makes no logical sense in the text at all. What? The mere human messiah has the power to walk on water? No, only the God-Messiah foretold by the OT Scriptures. By telling them “I AM” He was making a direct claim to being Yahweh in the flesh, in order to comfort them.

Peter responded that if it was indeed Him, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to you on the water.” Peter used the word kurios (lord) in the understanding of Jesus being God in the flesh, because if He was God in the flesh, then He could call Peter out onto the water as He was walking on the water...something impossible to do for a mere human being. And, if Jesus was Lord, then He could cause Peter to be able to walk on water, too.

Peter may have been in doubt at that point by saying, “Lord, if it is You...” but after having walked upon the water because of the power that Jesus exuded for Peter to do so, he had a better understanding of who Jesus was, which was why the disciples said, “You are truly the Son of God!” and by that realization, they reacted by worshiping Him. Both their words and actions demonstrate that they understood that Jesus was Yahweh God in the flesh...they were Jews, they knew the law against worshiping anything other than God – yet they willingly and freely worshiped Him instantaneously.

Furthermore, because some pervert the clear meaning of the Scriptures, proskuneo (worship) here does not mean paying homage to a superior in rank out of respect. The text demonstrates that there was absolutely no reason for them to simply, and suddenly, feel the need to pay respect to Jesus – what they were doing was actual worship...something forbidden to anything or being other than Yahweh God.


Matthew 28:9*
And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Joy to you!” And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.


Again we must remember that the meaning of a word is based upon how it is utilized in the text itself, then in its immediate context, and if need be, even wider in context of the entire chapter, book, covenant Scriptures (OT/NT), and even the entirety of the whole Word of God. Furthermore, we must also take into consideration the attitude of the person bowing down, why they are bowing down, and to whom/what they are bowing down to, in order to get the proper and accurate interpretation of the scene.

Here, in this text, the two women come to the tomb to find it open and empty, and then Jesus appears to them in physical form. Out of joy to see Him alive, they bow down (“took hold of His feet”) and prosekunhsan (worshiped) Him. Whenever we find a person bowing down + the word proskuneo, the text implies not respectful homage as to a king or person of higher rank; rather the combination of bowing down with proskuneo directly implies an act of religious worship, an act strictly forbidden to anyone or anything other than God.

The text demonstrates that Jesus received religious worship (not respect of social or religious rank), and act that was reserved for God alone. He does not rebuke these women and tell them not to worship Him. If Christ was not God, and He allowed them to worship Him, then He would have deceived them, making them continue to think that He was Yahweh if He, in fact, was not, and that act alone would have disqualified Him from being the Savior as a deceiver.



John 9:35-38
Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” He answered, “And who is He, sir, that I may believe in Him?” Jesus said to him, “You have seen Him, and it is He who is speaking to you.” He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped Him.


Firstly, this text gives us some important information concerning the title “Son of Man” and the Jewish mindset and understanding of that title. This man, a Jew, who had undoubtedly been taught and heard all of his life that only Yahweh God was worthy of religious worship, yet something in the title “Son of Man” told this Jewish man that the holder of such a title was worthy of religious worship that belonged to God alone.

How do we know that what this man was doing was actually worshiping Jesus and not, as the unitarians claim, that he was only offering to Jesus respectful homage as a godly man and Rabbi? First, this man evidently understood two different titles used in the text: Jesus calls Himself by the title “Son of Man,” which concerned His humanity. The title that refers to one’s humanity, if that was all that He was, a mere human being, would have been oddly self-redundant.

This title that Jesus gave to Himself in many conversations with the Jews, pointed out His deity clothed in His humanity...and this formerly blind man apparently understood that title and what it meant. Second, he calls Jesus “Lord,” which (again) as used in this manner was a direct implication of His equality with God in essence and nature.

Wilson agrees with others in deliberating on this verse, saying that “it appears he concluded that the person bearing this title [Son of Man] was worthy of worship as God” [Is Belief in Christ’s Deity Required for Eternal Life in John’s Gospel?; K. Wilson; Chafer Theological Seminary Journal, Vol. 12 (Fall 2006), pg. 74].

Harris concurs in his deliberations and meticulous study on the subject of the deity of Christ: “The evangelist thereby indicates that the acknowledgment of the messiahship of Jesus (20:31) necessarily involves belief in his deity” [Jesus as God; Murray Harris; Grand Rapids: Baker, 1992; pg. 289].

Thus, observing what was worshiped, and the attitude and understanding of the person doing the action of worshiping, it is clear that understanding who Jesus was led to the act of giving Him religious worship, not simply paying Him some kind of lesser homage. This was no mere earthly lord standing before him, this was the Messiah who had just opened the eyes of a man born blind, by His own power. This man understood who Jesus was, and reacted in kind.



Hebrews 1:5-6
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are My Son, today I have begotten You"? Or again, "I will be to Him a father, and He shall be to Me a son"? And again, when He brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "Let all of God's angels worship Him."


In verse 6 the author continues from the previous verse, saying, “And again, when He (God) brings the firstborn (speaking of His preeminence, not His creation) into the world (of His incarnation), He says, ‘Let all of God’s angels worship Him.’”

Worship is reserved specifically, and only, for Yahweh alone – for God to tell His angels to worship the incarnate Christ, is prima facia evidence that the Son is Yahweh God in the flesh. God says that we are to worship no one but Himself (Exodus 34:14; Jeremiah 13:10).


Acts 10:25-26
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell down at his feet to worship him
, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."


No Jew, knowing the prohibitions of worship, that it belonged to Yahweh alone, would have fallen to the ground and worshiped a mere human being. All accounts in the OT of men falling down before other men are accounts of the rendering of kingly homage – NOT worship...the two attitudes and actions are as different as metamorphic and sedimentary rocks. People may kneel before a person in both instances, but what they are doing is not the same thing...just as when people sit on the toilet is different from sitting in their vehicles.

Furthermore, if Jesus was not God, by accepting religious worship which is only supposed to be given to God, then He would not only have been a deceiver...letting people continue in their erroneous belief if He wasn’t God in the flesh...then He could not have been the Messiah because He would have sinned through that deceit. The fact is, Jesus is the Savior, the Messiah; therefore, He is also Yahweh God in the flesh.



- He healed people by His own power and authority:


Matthew 8:1-3

When Jesus came down from the mountain, great crowds followed Him. And behold, a leper came to Him and knelt before Him, saying, “Lord, if You will, You can make me clean.” And Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, saying, “I will; be clean.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.


All of the healings and miracles that Jesus did, He did by His own power, we never hear that He ever invoked the name of Yahweh in any way, shape, or form...like believers today can heal “in the name of Jesus.” Jesus did not have to invoke the name of Yahweh in order to perform His works of power, because He was Yahweh in the flesh. Here, Jesus says, “I will” and then heals the leper...He healed the leper by His own power and authority, demonstrating His deity.

But what about when Scripture says that He couldn’t do many miracles in His hometown because of their unbelief? God always works through a person’s faith. It wasn’t that He “couldn’t” perform for lack of power, but the constraining aspect was their lack of faith, because He has already ordained that He will work in the world through people’s faith. In effect, He constrains Himself according to the ultimate purpose of His will.



- He forgave sin, a prerogative that belongs only to Yahweh:

- He “knew” their thoughts (Omniscience)



Matthew 9:2-4 (Mark 2:5-8; Luke 5:20-22)

And behold, some people brought to Him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Take heart, My son; your sins are forgiven.” And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus knew what they were thinking, and said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts?”


In the texts, particularly in Mark, when Jesus says that the man’s sins “are forgiven,” the word for this (aphiemi) is in the Present Passive Indicative, representing that the action of the forgiveness was accomplished upon the man at the moment Jesus spoke the words. In other words, the grammar of the text demonstrates that Jesus was the one – as the context directly implies – who forgave the paralytic. Some try to press the Passive voice in saying that because Jesus was speaking, if it was Him actually forgiving the man, it would be in the Active voice.

However, the Passive or Active addresses the action being accomplished upon the subject, and Jesus is NOT the subject of the discourse, the paralytic is the subject. Jesus says, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” The man Jesus addresses in His sentence, “son,” is the subject. All the Passive tells us in this text is that the man was not the one acting upon himself – he was forgiven from outside of himself, in this case, by Jesus, just as He stated.

Jesus specifically implied that He could forgive sin, a strict prerogative of God alone (since God is the one sinned against – while I can forgive myself of sinning against God or someone else, my forgiving myself has absolutely NO IMPACT upon the one sinned against; I cannot forgive myself on behalf of the one that I sinned against, only they can forgive me in that area). In this act of forgiving this man, Jesus demonstrates that He is Yahweh God in the flesh, and the scribes understood that silent, indirect claim full well, which is why they reacted in the way that they did.

“...blasphemy! Who can forgive sin but God alone?” They said this because they understood Jesus to be assuming a divine prerogative, and their logic and understanding was absolutely correct...


Exodus 34:6-7
Yahweh passed before him and proclaimed, “Yahweh, Yahweh, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

Isaiah 43:25
I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins.”

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of His inheritance? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in steadfast love.


The only flaw in their determination was the fact that Jesus held a peculiar relationship with God which justified His claim.

The word “blaspheme” originally means to speak evil of anyone; to injure by words; to blame unjustly. When applied to God, it means to speak of him unjustly; to ascribe to him acts and attributes which he does not possess; or to speak impiously or profanely. It also means to say or do anything by which his name or honor is insulted, or which conveys an “impression” unfavourable to God. It means, also, to attempt to do, or say a thing, which belongs to him alone, or which he only can do. This is its meaning here. Christ was charged with saying a thing in his own name, or attempting to do a thing, which properly belonged to God; thus assuming the place of God, and doing him injury, as the scribes supposed, by an invasion of his prerogatives...None of the prophets had this power; and by saying that “he forgave sins,” Jesus was understood to affirm that he was divine. [Albert Barnes’ Notes on the Bible; electronic edition]

Next, Jesus “knew” their thoughts, demonstrating omniscience, another attribute of God alone. Matthew uses the word eido (to see, figuratively to know) in the Perfect Active Participle, meaning that He absolutely knew their thoughts. The Active demonstrates that Jesus KNEW, not that He received this knowledge from God or the Holy Spirit...He knew.

Both Mark and Luke use epiginosko (to know fully in a complete sense, to have full knowledge of) in the Aorist Active Participle form. Both words (eido and epiginosko), because of their grammar, come to equal the exact same sentiment – Jesus had complete knowledge of their thoughts the moment the scribes thought them. And again, both grammars show in the Active voice, meaning that Jesus knew their thoughts; that knowledge of their thoughts was not given to Him by God or the Holy Spirit. Demonstration, again, of His omniscience – deity.





- Divine nature demonstrated by what He said:


Matthew 5:21-22

"You have heard that it was said to those of old [by God], 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.


Here Christ takes on the position of taking up the commandments of God into Himself, and then re-giving them as the law-giver of the New Covenant. Giving the law Himself, out of Himself, rather than saying “thus says the Lord,” demonstrates His identity. If He was a mere human man, then He had no right or authority that may be observed in Scripture to change the law as given by God. But, because He was God in the flesh, He had the right and authority. His changing the law, as only God could since it was His law, demonstrates that Jesus was Yahweh in the flesh. Since He was the original law giver, He had the only right to expound on it or to change it as He pleased.

Furthermore, He taught on His own authority as God, and not like mere humans. For example, the OT prophets always prefaced their words with “Thus says the LORD...” but Jesus, over 70 times in the gospels (30 in Matthew; 13 in Mark; 6 in Luke, and 25 in John) says both “Truly, truly, I say to you...” and “Amen,” which asserts authority, certainty, and potency. By their prescriptions, the OT prophets denied authority of what they said, pointing back directly to God. By Christ’s prescriptions, He asserts His authority to speak because He is God in the flesh, and what He says is true because of who He is.

Further still, all people in Jesus’ day referenced authorities in their dogma’s to show that what they were teaching was Biblical and true. For example, when the Pharisees would quote or reference Moses in their chidings with Jesus – but Jesus never, not once, made reference to a higher authority than Himself...because for the simple reason that as Yahweh in the flesh, there was no greater authority than Himself.



John 3:13*
“No one has ascended into heaven except He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.”


1. “He who descended from heaven” –


What is Jesus saying here? He is saying that before His incarnation, He existed in heaven in eternity past. The title, “Son of Man,” speaks of this and every time He uses it of Himself, He points to this meaning – that He is from heaven and existed with God before creation. This is why John opens his gospel with what he says about Christ in 1:1-3...those were John’s words describing what Jesus tells us about Himself here and in other places. John almost seems to be making a direct reference to Proverbs 30:4...


Proverbs 30:4-6
Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name? Surely you know! Every word of God proves true; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar.


The passage both rings with a Messianic tone (although it is not considered as such by many) and comes with a stern warning that is very valid today. Those who would add to God’s Word, trying to change the intended meaning of His Word, are liars twisting His Word to suit their own carnally minded, unregenerate biased false doctrines.

All attempts at explaining away the clear meaning and implication of the text are futile and a fool’s errand, and ridiculous. The Son of Man, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, was in heaven before His incarnation, and came down out of heaven. Yahweh, and His divine Son according to the flesh, but Yahweh Himself incarnate.

This is a clear statement and claim about Christ’s pre-existence before His incarnation in His own words. Alone this claim would not amount to very much, but taken together with other passages concerning His deity, it bolsters and reinforces the Biblical teaching that Christ is Yahweh God in the flesh.


2. “Who is in heaven” –

We begin this section of our examination of this text by acknowledging that there is one variant reading of this verse, where “who is in heaven” is not present. Historically and geographically, this variant is only found in a localized area from the Alexandrian text, which over the years has lost its hold on scholars’ and theologians’ minds as being a “pure” form of Scripture.

Consistently scholars have uncovered copy errors and changes by scribes to the NT texts which the scribes found offensive doctrinally and theologically. Having this information statistically demonstrated since the 1970’s with the discovery of older texts, the Alexandrian texts: the uncials Sinaiticus (x) and Vaticanus (B).

Examination of the external and internal evidence for the reading of John 3:13 indicates that the longer reading (which includes the clause ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ) should be regarded as authentic. This longer reading has extensive external attestation. Furthermore, transcriptional probabilities and John’s style and theology lend strong internal support for this reading. Therefore, John 3:13 is a proof of the omnipresence of the earthly Jesus. [The text of John 3:13; David Black; Grace Theological Journal, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1985), pgs. 49-66]

The phrase “ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ” is far more likely to be part of the original text, excised in the Alexandrian text-stream by a copyist prone to relieve perceived difficulties, that it is to have originated as a scribal expansion. The absence of this phrase in the fifth edition of the UBS/Biblica Greek New Testament, and in the 28th edition of the Nestle-Aland Novum Testatementum Graece, is an echo of previous compilers’ reliance upon poorly represented data combined with a preference for manuscripts that happened to be stored in a dry climate. In the Sinaitic Syriac and the Curetonian Syriac and the Old Latin Codex Palatinus (and in the uncial 0141, in which the closing phrase states that the Son of Man is from heaven) we see copyists surrendering to the temptation to alter the text in order to resolve a perceived difficulty; the manuscripts that lack the phrase echo the work of an early scribe who took things a little further. [John 3:13: The Son of Man Who is in Heaven; James Snapp, New Testament Textual Criticism, Feb 28, 2018]

Furthermore, when we compare the treatment of the text (John 3:13) in different editions of Greek New Testaments, we find that their use of resources for their translations does not build confidence in their manuscripts. One of these resources is the UBS Greek New Testament in which the first edition of 1966, the Ethiopic version was listed as a source for not including the phrase “who is in heaven,” while the Arabic Diatessaron and Georgian versions were listed as source witnesses for including the phrase.

Then came a change of plans with the fourth edition which came out in 1993, where the same Georgian and Arabic Diatessaron versions were now listed as supporting the removal of the phrase, and Didymus (who was previously listed as a witness for the validity of both readings) was not listed as giving support for only the removal of the phrase. The Ethiopic version also “switched sides” favoring the inclusion of the phrase. [Snapp] “It appears that the strongest evidence in favor of the shorter reading is the fact that the words ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ are lacking in the early Alexandrian manuscripts (x and B)” [Black].

The external evidence shows almost the entire ancient tradition supporting the disputed phrase (including the Old Latin [Itala], which establishes the date of the longer reading as at least the last quarter of the second century)...the testimony of the Greek manuscripts, ancient versions, and Church Fathers thus forms, as it were, a strong three-cord strand which is not easily broken... therefore, the reading which is both early and supported by independent witnesses from a wide geographical area is more likely to be [the] original. [The text of John 3:13; David Black; Grace Theological Journal, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1985), pgs. 49-66]

The evidence for the inclusion of the words is as follows. The phrase is found in nearly all the uncial and minuscule manuscripts of the NT as well as in nearly every ancient version, including the Bohairic of lower Egypt. Support for the longer reading is also found in the great majority of the earliest patristic witnesses, including Origen himself...moreover, this reading is not limited to manuscripts of only one geographical area, as is its omission. The reading was accepted as genuine over a wide geographical area, encompassing most of the then civilized ancient world. [The text of John 3:13; David Black; Grace Theological Journal, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1985), pgs. 49-66]

Regarding the Internal evidence of the text:

The clause contains features which, taken at face value, seem faithfully to reflect the apostle’s characteristic style, grammar, and vocabulary...the inclusion of the disputed words is the best solution since it is supported by significant external and internal evidence...given the strength and diversity of the external attestation, the improbability of an accidental omission, and the intrinsic probability favoring the inclusion of the phrase...the cumulative effect of the data can hardly be ignored. [The text of John 3:13; David Black; Grace Theological Journal, Vol. 6, No. 1 (1985), pgs. 49-66]

Therefore, with all of the evidences, external and internal, taken together, the overwhelming data dictates that the longer version is far more likely than not to be the original writing of John the Apostle. Along with the fact that the only reason why an Alexandrian scribe would have taken the phrase out during his transcription, would have been because his own theological misgivings were playing his bias and caused him to remove the phrase, which is a tragedy. When men take it upon themselves to tamper with the Word of God because they don’t like what a particular text says...I would hate to be in that man’s shoes when he stands before God on judgment day.

As further evidence of the implication of the full reading of the text under examination, we also have a clue two verses earlier which, when first we come upon, doesn’t really to make a whole lot of sense...



John 3:11
Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.


Jesus speaks in the plural, taking up the meaning of Elohim from the OT, in part of a new section of His dialogue with Nicodemus...which He alludes to with finality in verse 13. He is both standing before this Pharisee of faith in human physical form, and at the same time in heaven, the “we” and “our” attesting to His plurality – Yahweh God in heaven and Yahweh manifest in flesh as Jesus the God-Messiah. Over and again, John depicts Jesus as existing in union with God at all times...because He is God and man at the same time.

There is no other reason that can stand up against scrutiny of the facts, why Jesus all of a sudden speaks of Himself in the plural. He begins here in this verse to hint at Nicodemas of who He really was, and then finishes that hint in verse 13 by telling him that He was both standing before him in conversation, and...at the same time...sitting in heaven upon His throne from which He ruled the creation. Jesus had also hinted at this in verses where He claimed that when He spoke, God was speaking...


John 3:34
He whom God has sent utters the words of God, because God gives Him the fulness of the Spirit.

John 14:24
Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words, and the words that you hear are not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.


When Jesus speaks, it is the words God spoke through His lips of flesh; because Jesus and God are one and the same. The end of the matter on this text, is that Jesus claims that He was both standing before Nicodemas holding their conversation, and at the same time – manifesting His deity through His omnipresence – was in heaven.



John 6:62
Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?

First, we need to look at the text within its context:


John 6:48-51, 58
I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh...This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."


It is abundantly clear that Jesus makes the statement that He is the “bread” and that this bread “came down from heaven.” What He is saying is that, for our purposes, He came down from heaven. In this context He then asks “what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending back to where He was before?”

“down from heaven” where ek (from) speaks of an object or person which was beforehand in something or somewhere else but are presently separated from where they once were, such as an egg yoke taken out of the egg shell. In Biblical Greek, if something is separated from where it once was, then that separation ‘from’ it is expressed with ek; while if that something was only near it, on it, or with it, then that separation is expressed with apo.

ek is used in respect to either place, time, source, or origin – in this case, when Jesus uses it, He uses it in respect to origin. Its base definition is out of, or separation from. When used of origin, ek implies “likeness.”

The word translated as “down” is the verb katabainw, and what is interesting about its use here, is its grammar – it is in the present active participle. What this tells us is that Christ was in a constant present state of “coming down” from heaven, in allusion to being presently in heaven and on earth at the same time, mirroring the statement in John 3:13. This speaks of the omnipresence of Christ as God, who was both in heaven and walking the earth at the exact same time.

This is a clear statement and claim about Christ’s pre-existence before His incarnation in His own words.
 
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared to all men bringing salvation,
12 instructing us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present age;
13 awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify to himself a people for his possession, zealous of good works.

John 1:17 Because the law was given through Moses; the grace and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ.
1:18 God no one hath ever seen; an only begotten, himself God, who is unto the bosom of the Father, HE hath declared him.
 
ONLY ONE GOD THE FATHER-ONLY ONE Lord JESUS CHRIST
THE FATHER IS GOD-JESUS IS Lord(Not LORD)
JESUS IS NOT GOD
[Mar 12:29
[29] Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments [is]: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
II Jn 1:3
3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 Cor 8:5-7
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
Acts 17:24-25
24 "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
25 "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
Eph 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
John 4:23-24
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
1 Pet 4:19
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.
1 Cor 11:27
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
I Jn 2:4
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I Jn 2:3
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
I Jn 3:19
19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.
I Jn 3:22-24
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
I Jn 4:2-3
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
I Jn 4:12-15
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
I Jn 5:20
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
I Jn 5:12-13
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Col 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Rom 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
1 Tim 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
II Jn 1:8-11
8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Matt 11:27
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
John 14:28
28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
1 Cor 8:6-7
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
[Eph 4:4-6
4 [There is] one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.


xxx Jesus is very specific about revealing who God really is. And if you dont know who Jesus really is, how will you ever find out who God the Father really is? To confess means to agree fully. So to confess that Jesus came in the flesh, and that Jesus is the Son of God. One has to question those that say God came in the flesh, and Jesus is God. Because they do not agree fully that it was Jesus instead of God. Now God was manifested(made known) to us by Jesus that God was with Him. But Jesus also made known to us that God left Jesus on the cross to die alone. There is only One God the Father. Jesus was created by God the Father. Jesus was created a man, after Jesus proved Himself to God in obedience. God gave Jesus a ministry and a title of Lord(Not LORD) over earth. Then after Jesus was resurrected God the Father gave Jesus a new title at His second coming with the authority of a God. Because Jesus purchased us from the law of sin and death(old testament).

xxJesus said He was a son of man, and God was never a man, nor a son of man.

Num 23:19
19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
Matt 8:20
20 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."
Matt 9:6
6 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"-- then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."
(NKJ
JESUS IS Lord

1 Cor 12:3
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Phil 2:11
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I Jn 4:3
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
II Jn 1:7
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
(NKJ)

xxxLord and God are the highest spiritual titles of authority. The Father held both titles in the old testament. In the old testament God held the title of LORD God. In the new testament God turned over the title of Lord(not LORD) to Jesus. God is the highest spiritual title of authority over the universe. Lord is the highest spiritual title of authority over the earth.


1 Cor 3:23
23 And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
(NKJ)


Eph 1:17
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
(NKJ)

GO TO GOD THE FATHER IS THE CREATOR
 
Okay, Squeaky...interpret John 1;1 for us....
Tyndale Bible




1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.

xxx The Word of God is the power of God. It originated from God, it was with God in the beginning. All things were made by "It" and without it nothing could be made.


4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
5 and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not.

xxx The Word of God was working but people didnt understand it or The One who was sharing the Word of God with them. how it worked or that God was behind it working it.

xxx Then John the Baptist was sent. John came to bear witness of the One sharing the light. God the Father. And John the Baptist was bearing witness of the one sent by God to explain the Word to man. Jesus.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was Iohn.
7 The same cam as a witnes to beare witnes of the lyght that all men through him myght beleve.
8 He was not that lyght: but to beare witnes of the lyght.
9 That was a true lyght which lyghteth all men that come into the worlde.

10 He was in ye worlde and the worlde was made by him: and yet the worlde knewe him not.
11 He cam amonge his (awne) and his awne receaved him not.
12 But as meny as receaved him to them he gave power to be the sonnes of God in yt they beleved on his name:
13 which were borne not of bloude nor of the will of the flesshe nor yet of the will of man: but of God.


14 And the worde was made flesshe and dwelt amonge vs and we sawe the glory of it as the glory of the only begotten sonne of ye father which worde was full of grace and verite.
15 Iohn bare witnes of him and cryed sayinge: This was he of whome I spake he that cometh after me was before me because he was yer then I.

xxx People lose sight of the fact that God was in Christ telling Christ what to say. And Jesus was obeying. When the Word controls the flesh, my flesh, your flesh, that is when God is in control. That is when God is working in you both to will and to do for His self.


2Co 5:18
Now all things [are] of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


Phl 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Phl 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure.
Phl 2:14
Do all things without complaining and disputing,
 
The KJV bible was translated from the Tyndale Bible . The KJV was from 1611. For 1600 years the Word was an "it". Now we see why God put stumbling blocks and stumbling stones in scripture.
 
Just a question in passing.

Jesus' quote Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is PERFECT."

Hebrews 5:8-10 "Though He were a Son yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; and being MADE PERFECT He BECAME THE AUTHOR of eternal salvation
unto all them that obey Him; Called of God AN HIGH PRIEST after the order of Melchisedec."

Here we see Jesus saying that the Father is perfect, but yet in Hebrews we see that the Son needed to learn obedience to the Father as part of His perfecting process. Leads to the
question:
If God is perfect already according to Jesus then why would God need to be perfected by sufferings? And whom did God then need to be obedient to? Himself?

Question 2 Is God His own High Priest? As your theory indicates "Jesus was God in the flesh" then it follows that He is His own High Priest.
Yet the Bible tells us that Jesus' being a man made Him a more understanding High Priest. Wouldn't The Father already know all these things and not need to suffer to understand
man?

Question 3 If Jesus is Called of God to be the High Priest, how can Jesus be the only true God if a man can not choose this calling of himself but is ordained by God?

Hebrews 7:24-25 But this MAN, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangable priesthood. Wherefore He is also able to save them to the uttermost that come
UNTO GOD BY HIM
, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Does God make intercession to Himself for us?

and lastly,
According to your theory "Jesus was God in the flesh" Does this position disallow Jesus was a man who sacrificed His human life for mankinds sins? And does this
then wipe Jesus completely out of the picture other than a name that God used to cover His true identity
according to your theory?
According to this theory you propose God begat Himself? God died for your sins and was His own lamb? God raised Himself from the dead? And set Himself at His own right Hand?
 
Just a question in passing.

Jesus' quote Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is PERFECT."

Hebrews 5:8-10 "Though He were a Son yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; and being MADE PERFECT He BECAME THE AUTHOR of eternal salvation
unto all them that obey Him; Called of God AN HIGH PRIEST after the order of Melchisedec."

Here we see Jesus saying that the Father is perfect, but yet in Hebrews we see that the Son needed to learn obedience to the Father as part of His perfecting process. Leads to the
question:
If God is perfect already according to Jesus then why would God need to be perfected by sufferings? And whom did God then need to be obedient to? Himself?

Question 2 Is God His own High Priest? As your theory indicates "Jesus was God in the flesh" then it follows that He is His own High Priest.
Yet the Bible tells us that Jesus' being a man made Him a more understanding High Priest. Wouldn't The Father already know all these things and not need to suffer to understand
man?

Question 3 If Jesus is Called of God to be the High Priest, how can Jesus be the only true God if a man can not choose this calling of himself but is ordained by God?

Hebrews 7:24-25 But this MAN, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangable priesthood. Wherefore He is also able to save them to the uttermost that come
UNTO GOD BY HIM
, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Does God make intercession to Himself for us?

and lastly,
According to your theory "Jesus was God in the flesh" Does this position disallow Jesus was a man who sacrificed His human life for mankinds sins? And does this
then wipe Jesus completely out of the picture other than a name that God used to cover His true identity
according to your theory?
According to this theory you propose God begat Himself? God died for your sins and was His own lamb? God raised Himself from the dead? And set Himself at His own right Hand?
Whether you know it or not you are receiving the right understanding.

Did Jesus lie?
Gal 5-1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
You have become estranged from Christ, you who [attempt to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

John 10-1
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
"All who [ever] came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

If you keep just one thing in the old testament that Jesus didnt bring over to the new testament. You will fall from grace, and be subject to the whole entire old testament.
 
Whether you know it or not you are receiving the right understanding.

Did Jesus lie?
Gal 5-1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
You have become estranged from Christ, you who [attempt to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

John 10-1
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
"All who [ever] came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

If you keep just one thing in the old testament that Jesus didnt bring over to the new testament. You will fall from grace, and be subject to the whole entire old testament.

My post was not intended for you it was directed at Shaolin.
 
Just a question in passing.

Jesus' quote Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is PERFECT."

Hebrews 5:8-10 "Though He were a Son yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; and being MADE PERFECT He BECAME THE AUTHOR of eternal salvation
unto all them that obey Him; Called of God AN HIGH PRIEST after the order of Melchisedec."

Here we see Jesus saying that the Father is perfect, but yet in Hebrews we see that the Son needed to learn obedience to the Father as part of His perfecting process. Leads to the
question:
If God is perfect already according to Jesus then why would God need to be perfected by sufferings? And whom did God then need to be obedient to? Himself?

Since Scripture tells us in many places, as well as in the OT, that Christ is Yahweh in the flesh, we must step back and take in all that Scripture gives us on passages like these. We must keep in mind that as the Messiah, Jesus (flesh) Christ (God) sometimes makes statements (or statements are made about Him) that are either the man speaking (or speaking about the man) or of the God that dwelled in that flesh.

The flesh had to learn obedience, not the aspect of Him that was Christ. The flesh had to learn obedience to God, which was accomplished in all that He did.

Question 2 Is God His own High Priest? As your theory indicates "Jesus was God in the flesh" then it follows that He is His own High Priest.

Firstly, its not my theory, it is what Scripture clearly teaches starting from the first verses in Genesis.
Secondly, Jesus as the man was God's Great High Priest. When addressing Jesus Christ, again, we must make the distinctions between when it is addressing His fleshly body and when it is addressing the Christ. When we fail to make those distinctions, we come away from Scripture with false ideologies.

Yet the Bible tells us that Jesus' being a man made Him a more understanding High Priest. Wouldn't The Father already know all these things and not need to suffer to understand
man?

If you read my biography, then you could get to know about me, but you cannot get to know me. God knows all things, but He could never know suffering unless He took on human form and lived a human life, and that is what He did in Christ. He also knows all people, but He does not know them personally - the criteria for one to make it to heaven. If He knew all people in that way, then all people would be going to heaven, but we see in Scripture that this is not the case.


Question 3 If Jesus is Called of God to be the High Priest, how can Jesus be the only true God if a man can not choose this calling of himself but is ordained by God?

Again...make the differentiation between the man (Jesus) and God (Christ) within Him. That answers your question. If you do not make that distinction, then the Scripture that tell you PLAINLY and CLEARLY that He is God in the flesh, will confuse you and be contradictory statements. God does not contradict Himself, ever. Therefore, when He says that the Messiah will be Himself in the flesh, that is exactly what He means...

Philippians 2:5-8*
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, continuing to be in the form of God as a man, He did not regard being equal with God in nature as robbery,
7 but He divested Himself, and took upon the form of a servant, in the likeness of men; and having become fashioned like as a man.
8 He humbled Himself by entering into a new state of being in human form, and was obedient unto death – even death upon a cross.

Colossians 1:15-19*
15 He is the image of the invisible God, preeminent over all creation;
16 because all things were created by Him, whether in the heavens or upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities; all things have been created by Him, and for Him;
17 and He is preeminent in all things, and He holds all things together.
18 And He is the head of the body, the Church: Who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; for the purpose that in all things He would continually be first.
19 Because it was pleasing to the Father to cause the totality of His fullness to dwell in Christ;

Colossians 2:8-9*
Be on your guard so that no one might destroy your relationship with God through a philosophy void of the demonstration of the Spirit and power, seducing and destructive, according to the traditional doctrines of men, according to worldly understanding and not according to Christ. Because in Him dwells all the fullness of Divinity in bodily form,

Titus 2:13

continuously waiting for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:1-3*

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He created the world. Christ is the radiance of the glory of God and the precise reproduction of God’s essence in every respect, and upholding all things with the word of His power. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Hebrews 1:8-12
8 But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beyond Your companions."
10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands;
11 they will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe You will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will have no end."

Now, each of these passages above tells you clearly that Jesus is God in the flesh, particularly in the last two...God Himself tells you that He says to the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beyond Your companions." and... " And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands; they will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe You will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will have no end."

When God tells you what He has said to the Messiah, calling Him God, then He is telling you that the Messiah will be Yahweh God in the flesh.


But this MAN, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangable priesthood. Wherefore He is also able to save them to the uttermost that come
UNTO GOD BY HIM
, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Does God make intercession to Himself for us?

Yes...indeed...and again...when we fail to make the distinction between His humanity and His deity, then we screw up theology.

and lastly,

According to your theory "Jesus was God in the flesh" Does this position disallow Jesus was a man who sacrificed His human life for mankinds sins?

How could it?...

Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

The ONLY way God could have blood, is if He took on human form...

And does this
then wipe Jesus completely out of the picture other than a name that God used to cover His true identity
according to your theory?

Again, the only theory being presented here is yours that Jesus is not God in the flesh...a theory that is wholly saturated by carnal reasoning and ignoring clear Scripture. Human arguments do not stand up against the Word of God. As for your question, God did not hide His true identity...He tells you way back in the OT prophetic statements that the Christ would be Yahweh in the flesh...

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Micah 5:2
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me One who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.

Zechariah 12:10
God says
, “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on Me, on Him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over Him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”

Malachi 3:1
“Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says Yahweh of hosts.”

Isaiah 40:3
A voice cries: “In the wilderness prepare the way for Yahweh; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”

Again, all of these tell you thousands of years ahead of time exactly who the Messiah would be...Yahweh God in the flesh.


According to this theory you propose God begat Himself? God died for your sins and was His own lamb? God raised Himself from the dead? And set Himself at His own right Hand?


Your theory is based upon ignorance of a complete Biblical hermeneutic, and carnal reasoning void of making the distinction between His flesh and Spirit. The spirit that animates your physical body is actually you, you are that spirit temporarily dwelling within the physical body that you have. That was not the case with Christ.

The Spirit that dwelled within the flesh of Jesus was Yahweh Himself.

A rudimentary understanding of Scripture is needed in order to be able to fully comprehend these facts, because they all ratify one another.

Blessings
 
Makes no difference to me if someone is right they are right. And I must acknowledge it.

The fact that you don't know what you are talking about, makes a big difference. Birds of a feather flock together, whether they are correct or in error...and neither of you are correct when it comes to what the Scriptures clearly teach on this subject matter. When your nonsense carnal reasoning directly contradicts what Scripture clearly states, then it is you who are out in left field, not those who align their theology with Scripture.
 
Genesis 19:23 The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar.
24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the LORD out of heaven.
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. [ESV]

Genesis 19:24 Yahweh rained down from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh. [LEB]
Genesis 19:24 and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens; [YLT]

Note the mention here of two LORDs [YHVH], one in heaven who sends judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah at the bidding of the LORD on earth.
This gives significant evidence for more than one person in the Godhead.
 
Genesis 19:23 The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar.
24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the LORD out of heaven.
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. [ESV]

Genesis 19:24 Yahweh rained down from heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh. [LEB]
Genesis 19:24 and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens; [YLT]

Note the mention here of two LORDs [YHVH], one in heaven who sends judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah at the bidding of the LORD on earth.
This gives significant evidence for more than one person in the Godhead.
You cant take two different versions of the bible and try to claim two different Gods. The different versions only use different names for the same God.


[Gen 19:24 NKJV] 24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.
[Gen 19:24 KJV] 24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
[Gen 19:24 NIV] 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens.
[Gen 19:24 ASV] 24 Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven;
[Gen 19:24 YLT] 24 and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens;
[Gen 19:24 ESV] 24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven.
 
The flesh had to learn obedience, not the aspect of Him that was Christ. The flesh had to learn obedience to God, which was accomplished in all that He did.

Your more confused than you know. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but Jesus the spirit, within the flesh did. Christ was/is the anointing that causes one to be born
of the Spirit of God, spiritually. First birth flesh, second birth spirit. Since the Kingdom is a spiritual kingdom one cannot see it as flesh only, one has to be born of the spirit to
understand the world that one cannot see with the fleshly eye.

He also knows all people, but He does not know them personally - the criteria for one to make it to heaven. If He knew all people in that way, then all people would be going to heaven, but we see in Scripture that this is not the case.

He will, once all (times) have been fulfilled. Ephesians 1:10
Going to heaven is not even the goal of being a follower of Christ. It is becoming a son of the living God. An independant, immortal, spiritual being that looks, acts and speaks exactly
like His Father The only TRUE GOD and big brother Jesus.
That said try these verses for sport.

Romans 5:18 "Therefore, as through one mans (Adams) offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation (death), even so through one man's(Jesus') righteous act the FREE GIFT
CAME TO ALL MEN,
resulting in justification of life."

1 Co 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE." But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER.........

You see God promised eternal life to all,( before the world began Titus 1:2) who have been sent to the earth to learn good and evil and participate in both as is written in Genesis 3:22, All mankind subjected to the carnal mind experience good and evil and inflict both upon each other making them like God according to God. But without the second birth they will not live forever.
However; as this was Gods plan for man to fall, to experience this, He also had a solution to the fall in the foreordination of Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb that reversed the curse for ALL in that He (Jesus) died for the sins of ALL as well as for His own glorification and perfecting.

In both cases the judgement came from God in that Adams sin brought the judgement of death which no man has escaped since Adam, and because of Jesus' righteous act that
FREE GIFT was also the decree of God to justify ALL men unto LIFE. So if no man can escape death due to the first decree of God, What man will escape life according to the second
decree from the same God, our Father?



Not sure where you get your info but it's all screwed up.

1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar, but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-Christ that denies the Father and the Son." TWO, not ONE

Indeed God did reside in Jesus during His time of ministry, but removed Himself during the period of Jesus' suffering in the garden and His crucifixion. Thus Jesus was the one who
suffered and died, not God.
God raised Jesus from the dead, God did not raise himself from the dead.

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that GOD HATH RAISED HIM (Jesus) from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
According to your teachings God raised Himself thus you do not believe that Jesus ,the only begotten Son of the Father, was raised by the Father from the dead to be the first begotten
from among the dead.
Salvation in question??????????
 
Your more confused than you know. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but Jesus the spirit, within the flesh did. Christ was/is the anointing that causes one to be born
of the Spirit of God, spiritually. First birth flesh, second birth spirit. Since the Kingdom is a spiritual kingdom one cannot see it as flesh only, one has to be born of the spirit to
understand the world that one cannot see with the fleshly eye.



He will, once all (times) have been fulfilled. Ephesians 1:10
Going to heaven is not even the goal of being a follower of Christ. It is becoming a son of the living God. An independant, immortal, spiritual being that looks, acts and speaks exactly
like His Father The only TRUE GOD and big brother Jesus.
That said try these verses for sport.

Romans 5:18 "Therefore, as through one mans (Adams) offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation (death), even so through one man's(Jesus') righteous act the FREE GIFT
CAME TO ALL MEN,
resulting in justification of life."

1 Co 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE." But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER.........

You see God promised eternal life to all,( before the world began Titus 1:2) who have been sent to the earth to learn good and evil and participate in both as is written in Genesis 3:22, All mankind subjected to the carnal mind experience good and evil and inflict both upon each other making them like God according to God. But without the second birth they will not live forever.
However; as this was Gods plan for man to fall, to experience this, He also had a solution to the fall in the foreordination of Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb that reversed the curse for ALL in that He (Jesus) died for the sins of ALL as well as for His own glorification and perfecting.

In both cases the judgement came from God in that Adams sin brought the judgement of death which no man has escaped since Adam, and because of Jesus' righteous act that
FREE GIFT was also the decree of God to justify ALL men unto LIFE. So if no man can escape death due to the first decree of God, What man will escape life according to the second
decree from the same God, our Father?



Not sure where you get your info but it's all screwed up.

1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar, but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-Christ that denies the Father and the Son." TWO, not ONE

Indeed God did reside in Jesus during His time of ministry, but removed Himself during the period of Jesus' suffering in the garden and His crucifixion. Thus Jesus was the one who
suffered and died, not God.
God raised Jesus from the dead, God did not raise himself from the dead.

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that GOD HATH RAISED HIM (Jesus) from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
According to your teachings God raised Himself thus you do not believe that Jesus ,the only begotten Son of the Father, was raised by the Father from the dead to be the first begotten
from among the dead.
Salvation in question??????????
I agree with the part about God leaving Jesus to die alone as a human. because God cannot die.
 
Your more confused than you know. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but Jesus the spirit, within the flesh did.

No, I am not the confused one. You employ false carnal reasoning right out of the JW handbook, very interesting indeed. Scripture trumps your carnal reasoning, sorry...but you lose, and will lose against Scripture every time.

Christ was/is the anointing that causes one to be born of the Spirit of God, spiritually.

More nonsense...Christ is not "the anointing," He is the "anointed one," there is a difference and if you cannot differentiate between that simple difference, how in the world are you going to sit there and convince any thinking person that you are competent enough to discuss this issue? You are failing hard...

First birth flesh, second birth spirit. Since the Kingdom is a spiritual kingdom one cannot see it as flesh only, one has to be born of the spirit to understand the world that one cannot see with the fleshly eye.

Thank you for telling us why you can't understand Scripture, but we already knew that...

He will, once all (times) have been fulfilled. Ephesians 1:10
https://biblia.com/bible/nlt/Eph 1.10

Wow...more evidence that you are lost in space...

Ephesians 1:10 (ESV)
as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

So that you "might" be able to understand a little better, here is how the actual Greek translates to:

Ephesians 1:10
until the administrations of the fullness of times was completed, in order to gather together under one authority and reconcile all those who are in Christ, those in the heavens and those of the earth.

Basically, this verse does not say or mean what you claim it does above...Try again.


Going to heaven is not even the goal of being a follower of Christ.
It is becoming a son of the living God.

Wrong again...more nonsense from the JW answers booklet that is filled with lies. I did not know that this site allowed JW's in here...experience has taught that they are so brainwashed by lies that its virtually impossible for them to get saved.
The purpose of getting saved is so that we can have personal intimate relationship with God and go to live with Him in eternity when all of this is over with...so there again you don't have a clue about what Scripture teaches in truth.


An independant, immortal, spiritual being that looks, acts and speaks exactly like His Father The only TRUE GOD and big brother Jesus.
That said try these verses for sport.

Romans 5:18 "Therefore, as through one mans (Adams) offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation (death), even so through one man's(Jesus') righteous act the FREE GIFT
CAME TO ALL MEN,
resulting in justification of life."


This has nothing to do with the current conversation...

"For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE." But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER.........


Again...this verse has nothing to do with the current conversation

You see God promised eternal life to all,( before the world began Titus 1:2) who have been sent to the earth to learn good and evil and participate in both as is written in Genesis 3:22,

What kind of new age nonsense is this, sam? You are mixing new age philosophy with JW false doctrines and coming away with your own brand of nonsense...or are you reading the urantia book? You have some real issues.


According to your teachings God raised Himself thus you do not believe that Jesus ,the only begotten Son of the Father, was raised by the Father from the dead to be the first begotten
from among the dead.
Salvation in question??????????

Well...I did tell you to try again, so I guess I asked for that.

No, and you are not listening again, being a bias defender will take you to hell, sam. You are not making the distinction between His flesh and Spirit...and as I told you yesterday (but you didn't listen then, either), when you fail to make that Biblical distinction, you pervert the Word of God and make it say what YOU want it to say.

Sorry, but you are not God, you don't get to twist the Scriptures to mean what you want them to mean...here is my last warning for you:

1 Corinthians 4:6
I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

II John 1:9*
Whoever does not abide in the teachings of Christ, but instead goes beyond what He has taught us, that person does not have God. Those who do abide in His teaching, the same has both the Father and the Son.

Again, when you bring things to the table that is NOT supported by Scripture, then you are clinging to false doctrine, and no one gets saved by walking in what is false.
 
No, I am not the confused one. You employ false carnal reasoning right out of the JW handbook, very interesting indeed. Scripture trumps your carnal reasoning, sorry...but you lose, and will lose against Scripture every time.



More nonsense...Christ is not "the anointing," He is the "anointed one," there is a difference and if you cannot differentiate between that simple difference, how in the world are you going to sit there and convince any thinking person that you are competent enough to discuss this issue? You are failing hard...



Thank you for telling us why you can't understand Scripture, but we already knew that...

https://biblia.com/bible/nlt/Eph 1.10

Wow...more evidence that you are lost in space...

Ephesians 1:10 (ESV)
as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

So that you "might" be able to understand a little better, here is how the actual Greek translates to:

Ephesians 1:10
until the administrations of the fullness of times was completed, in order to gather together under one authority and reconcile all those who are in Christ, those in the heavens and those of the earth.

Basically, this verse does not say or mean what you claim it does above...Try again.




Wrong again...more nonsense from the JW answers booklet that is filled with lies. I did not know that this site allowed JW's in here...experience has taught that they are so brainwashed by lies that its virtually impossible for them to get saved.
The purpose of getting saved is so that we can have personal intimate relationship with God and go to live with Him in eternity when all of this is over with...so there again you don't have a clue about what Scripture teaches in truth.




This has nothing to do with the current conversation...

https://biblia.com/bible/nlt/1 Cor 15.22

Again...this verse has nothing to do with the current conversation



What kind of new age nonsense is this, sam? You are mixing new age philosophy with JW false doctrines and coming away with your own brand of nonsense...or are you reading the urantia book? You have some real issues.




Well...I did tell you to try again, so I guess I asked for that.

No, and you are not listening again, being a bias defender will take you to hell, sam. You are not making the distinction between His flesh and Spirit...and as I told you yesterday (but you didn't listen then, either), when you fail to make that Biblical distinction, you pervert the Word of God and make it say what YOU want it to say.

Sorry, but you are not God, you don't get to twist the Scriptures to mean what you want them to mean...here is my last warning for you:

1 Corinthians 4:6
I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

II John 1:9*
Whoever does not abide in the teachings of Christ, but instead goes beyond what He has taught us, that person does not have God. Those who do abide in His teaching, the same has both the Father and the Son.

Again, when you bring things to the table that is NOT supported by Scripture, then you are clinging to false doctrine, and no one gets saved by walking in what is false.
ABUNDANCE OF VERSES OR CARNALITY (IN YOUR MIND)Abundance Of The Heart

1 Cor 15:1-3
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-- unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
Matt 12:34
34 "Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
John 10:10
10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
2 Cor 3:4-6
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
John 7:18
18 "He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but he who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.
John 3:34
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
Matt 12:34-37
34 "Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
36 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Luke 8:18
18 "Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him."
John 14:24-26
24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
25 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Matt 18:20
20 "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."
2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
1 Cor 11:31
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
John 7:24
24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
I Jn 2:15-17
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world-- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-- is not of the Father but is of the world.
17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
Rev 3:17
17 "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'-- and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--
1 Tim 6:5
5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
2 Cor 8:9
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.
James 2:5-7
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?
7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
Luke 12:15
15 And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses."
2 Cor 8:12-15
12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened;
14 but by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may supply their lack, that their abundance also may supply your lack-- that there may be equality.
15 As it is written, "He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack."
Acts 20:34-35
34 "Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me.
35 "I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
1 Pet 3:10-12
10 For "He who would love life and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking deceit.
11 Let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers; but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."
(NKJ)
xxx What impresses you? Carnal reasoning & logic or the Word of God(verses)? Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The Holy Spirit only quotes verses and He doesnt need any carnality to explain other verses. He can do it with verses. But He will not do it until someone purges their mind of the carnality. When you only have verses this is called sanctified(the washing of water by the Word). Now many are called to this sanctification, but only few are chosen to obtain it.



2 Cor 13:5-6
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-- unless indeed you are disqualified.
6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.
(NKJ)


See also idle talk, gossip, carnality, human wisdom
 
ABUNDANCE OF VERSES OR CARNALITY

You are out-gunned, out-classed, and out-lived. You ignore the truth and try to paper that truth over with nonsense and passages that say nothing about the actual subject matter.
 
You are out-gunned, out-classed, and out-lived. You ignore the truth and try to paper that truth over with nonsense and passages that say nothing about the actual subject matter.
What is the abundance of your heart??? Carnality, no verses.

[Mat 12:34-37 NKJV] 34 "Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
 
Back
Top