Curtis
Loyal
Rich man, begger ring a bell?
Annihilation?
- Thread starter B-A-C
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Curtis
Loyal
Do you know the difference between physical death and spiritual death?
Rhema
Active
Oh Curtis, dear Curtis what am I to do?
I said Revelation because I meant Revelation. If I had meant "The Bible" I would have said the Bible. If I could kindly ask that you keep this in mind? Unlike other posters, I actually mean exactly what I write.
Uh... Okay, maybe you had missed the intense discussion that's been going on for the last four or five months.
The short answer is NO, the book of Revelation is not in our canon. It was rejected as canonical scripture even up to the council of Nicaea, wherein the historical records show the book was in dispute. Roughly half the Bishops rejected Revelation while half did not.
But the Apostle Thomas, disgusted with what he was seeing in Jerusalem traveled east, right out of the Roman Empire, and headed East into the Parthian Empire (what you know of as Iraq and Iran) traveling through Afghanistan and Pakistan, even down into the west coast of India, where he witnessed to the large Jewish community that lived there engaged in the spice trade. The church that the Apostle Thomas started is called the Church of the East, (not to be confused with the Eastern Orthodox, which was part of the Eastern Roman Empire). And the book of Revelation is Not in the canon of the New Testament of the Church of the East - the only canon to be established by an Apostle.
I would strongly encourage you to study the history of the New Testament Canon.
So no. Revelation is not in our (my) canon.
Where are the dead unbelievers? They're dead. One might just as well ask where are any of the people who have died, whether believer or not.
The answer is that they don't exist in your timeline. They're dead. Dead-dead (Gen 2:17 Hebrew - מ֥וֹת תָּמֽוּת). No one is floating around on a cloud up in heaven watching over you. No one is down in the mythological hell being poked by demons with pitchforks over an open flame.
Dead people do not exist until the Resurrection. Scripture itself can be somewhat misleading on this point when speaking of dead people as SLEEPING. No one is asleep in heaven, no one is asleep in hell. So where are they "sleeping"?
But even if "asleep," they know nothing. Neither are they off dreaming in heaven or hell. Dead people don't exist anymore right NOW in your timeline.
IF, it is appointed unto men once to die and then judgement, those who have died have gone directly to that time of judging.
Where in the scripture does it EVER say "dead bodies"? It doesn't. It says the DEAD, speaking of dead people.
Please (I beg you), please post scripture that teaches this.
Change my mind. (Or else change yours....)
But if your "spirit of man" can change locations, why can't it also change time lines?
Into Sheol... the grave. The hole dug in the earth into which dead people are placed (buried). After which Jesus was resurrected because Sheol could not hold him.
There are three words used in scripture (actual scripture) - Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, none of which were understood at the time of Christ to be this "hell" that people speak about today. One should be very cautious about changing the definitions of word. This is what I meant when saying that it isn't the "hell" you know.
Again, I would encourage you to do a deep dive into the meanings of Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna. (And good of you if you have.
)But I'm also sure you have a different view on where Jesus "went" after His death. So again, please post scripture that teaches what you believe.
having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
(Acts 2:31 YLT)Notice, Peter said nothing about the Spirit of Jesus changing location. And the scripture Peter quoted states "Sheol."
For Thou dost not leave my soul to Sheol, Nor givest thy saintly one to see corruption.
(Psalms 16:10 YLT)Simply speaking, Hades is the Greek word used to translate the Hebrew word SHEOL.
The "soul" of Jesus was not left in SHEOL. He was resurrected.
We do not share the same canon. There are reasons, not the least is that yours came from the Roman Catholic Church who authorized it back circa 367 AD (LINK).
The parable of the Rich Man and the Beggar is exactly that - a parable. It is not a scientific treatise meant to explain cosmology.
Jesus knew the scriptures. Jesus knew that Dead People know nothing, and are not alive somewhere else in some other location.
It just boggles my mind how people can create mythological fantasies of some actual place called Abraham's Bosom that is located somewhere in Hades, especially since it IS Jewish mythology (LINK). (You should really read the link...) Are we to embrace Jewish mythology in our belief?
How would I not?
Spiritual death is a condition of people who are alive. Not people who are dead. Dead people are dead, whether they had been spiritually alive or not. Living people may be spiritually alive or dead. Those Born From the Beginning (what you call "born again") are those who have been born of the water of the baptism of repentance, and born of the fire of the baptism of the Spirit.
Dead people are, well...., Dead.
Until the Resurrection,
Rhema
Curtis
Loyal
I'm sorry, but all of my Bibles have the Book of Revelations. I do not seek external books or people who think they know something about God and His Kingdom beyond what scripture has already said.
If you do not believe what has already been written in the 66 books in the Bible then we have nothing to talk about.
Curtis
Loyal
Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be with him in "paradise" that day. Does that sound like the grave to you?
Care to explain how that could be possible?
Curtis
Loyal
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
Care to explain to me how Jesus Christ could be in me, and also be sitting on the right hand of God in Heaven at the same time?
Curtis
Loyal
I do not believe it to be a parable but an actual event.
Curtis
Loyal
Did God lie to Adam when he told them they would die the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
What died on that day?
Explain how Adam and Eve stayed alive after they ate.
Rhema
Active
Perhaps you have the wrong Bible. (Like the Mormons.)
Nobody likes to find out they've been lied to, but none of the Bibles had the Book of Revelation for about 350 years until the Catholic Saint Athanasius shoved it in. And "the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth," enough to unceasingly makes excuses.
No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
(Luke 5:39 KJV)You drink of the old wine of the Protestant cult, not having sought diligently enough, embracing a Bible that the sour wine of the Catholic cult put together.
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
(Matthew 7:7 KJV)Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(John 16:13 KJV)The Bible is not a "he," Curtis. Doesn't God speak to you by His voice?
You can either believe the Bible, or believe Jesus as revealed by the Holy Spirit. They are not one in the same. You would know this if you seek.
Luke was not an eyewitness, but there are several stories in his gospel that teach spiritual lessons, not actual history.
The eyewitness accounts say this:
And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
(Mark 15:32 KJV)
The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
(Matthew 27:44 KJV)
Care to explain how Mark, the scribe for Peter, and Matthew got this wrong? They were eyewitnesses, Luke was not.
Two people being crucified fifteen yards apart with someone in the middle are not going to be having a "tea time" chat.
The Gospel according to Luke has a number of spiritual stories that don't reflect history. And the account of sweating great drops of blood is actually a forgery. We know this because the scribe who added in this passage did not understand Greek poetry and put it in the middle of a poem.
(Seek and ye shall find.)
While the conclusions made by Dr. Bart Ehrman in his book Misquoting Jesus are incorrect, the evidence presented in his book should be dealt with by every Christian. I encourage you to borrow the book from your library.
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bibl…
For almost 1,500 years, the New Testament manuscripts w…
Again, there are errors in his conclusions, but the evidence is real.
I don't know what you mean by that, so it would be impossible for me to try and explain things about you that I don't know.
I can, though, testify about me; that I've received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the testimony of Jesus and Peter.
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
(Luke 11:13 KJV)For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
(Acts 1:5 KJV)And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(Acts 2:4 KJV)Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Acts 2:38 KJV)So then you do believe in Jewish mythology.
That's disappointing.
Or were you too lazy to read the links? (It's a valid question.)
The best translation of the Hebrew text is "Dying, thou doest die."
What died? Adam and Eve started to die. From day one. When they ate, they became dying. (Hebrew hurts your head. It's an Oriental language, not a western one.)
But go and find out how many questions God asked of Adam after the fall. One, the most important one, was left unanswered.
There's a reason that Jesus said to SEEK.
God bless,
Rhema