Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,470
A butterfly doesn't mean someone threw butter at you.
I said my piece, accept it or not.
Why does God send people to hell?
- Thread starter Chad
- Start date
I said my piece, accept it or not.
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,470
YES, exactly BECAUSE God is NOT the God of the dead - wherein the context is that dead people are still alive somewhere else in the here and now.
Hades is the name of the God of the Dead, because of the belief that Dead people were still "living" somewhere else.
But God is not Hades.
Isaac, Abraham and Jacob are dead-dead. If they were in Hades, or Heaven, or anywhere else you want to slap a name on, then God would be the God of the Dead.
God is not the God of the dead in Hades. (Because God is not the God of the dead.)
God is not the God of the dead in Heaven. (Because God is not the God of the dead.)
So Yes, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob are dead... until the Resurrection. And there is a Resurrection because God is the God of the living.
All dead people are dead-dead, until the Resurrection.
Kindly,
Rhema
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
(John 11:23 KJV)
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 11,926
I'll have to remember this concerning you.
I'd mention the book of life, but I know your feelings about the Book of Revelation and I want only good for you brother.
However, I am glad you said: "God can...", which means it can be any combination that He wills it to be.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,470
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
(Luke 10:20 KJV)I did not say that. The translators of the Douay Rheims Bible said that.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy (G622) both soul and body in hell.
(Matthew 10:28 KJV)'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy (G622) in gehenna.
(Matthew 10:28 YLT)LINK to the Liddell Scott for apollumi (G622)
A. destroy utterly, kill
If the soul is able to be destroyed, the soul is not immortal.
Regards,
Rhema
Thanks
We must be careful how we hear who we say we do. Not a salvation issue. More how can we hear and seek His approval????
I appreciate and accept but do not agree with the use of metaphors used in parables. They already have the unseen gospel understanding. needed when comparing the unseen eternal things of God to the literal dying
Adding new meaning violates the warning not to add or subtract
Butter like milk and manna as honey are used to represent the living abiding word of God. . He sends his messengers (apostles) as if they had butterfly wings.
The truth is that the Bible doesn’t reference or mention actual butterflies. But the Bible is full of scripture of that which speaks of what butterflies symbolize. (bring a message of beautiful feet)
Like all spiritual matters Satan who has not spiritual understanding (faith) turns it into the gods of this world both the Greek and Roman his and hers gods
Acts 14 7-14 And there they preached the gospel. (the powerful words of new born again life) And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: (the powerful words of new born again life)who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith (power of God) to be healed,;Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the (faithless no power) people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.(dying mankind) And they called Barnabas, Jupiter;(father of gods) and Paul, Mercurius, ( messenger butterfly wings ) because he was the chief speaker.Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Satan the counterfeiter. The king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after rather than true prophecy as it is written.
The master identity thief copying the order with Barnabus Jupiter as if eternal God (Moses) and his messenger apostle Mercury butterfly wings Paul as if Aaron to represent the bride moved by the husband. In that way woman is designed as the preacher. Like Deborah
The pattern of the priesthood of born-again believers
Exodus 7: And the Lord said unto Moses, (Barnabus) See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron (like Paul) thy brother shall be thy ( Barnabus) prophet (paul). Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron (Paul) thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Husband (Barnabus) and wife (Paul) sends them out today two by two. Never the witness of one. . . . . . . . . Pope or daysman.
One eternal not seen "let there be" . . . . . . made know by the other seen the temporal "it was very God alone good"
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 11,926
At least to me I look at the read as a possibility and not a surety.
Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28NRS
Even though Scripture says in not so many words the same thing that you said above, I was quoting your words as an "obliterationist" and not DRB.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,470
From a linguistic perspective, "soul and body" are grouped together as a surety that is to be destroyed in Gehenna, if such destruction is to occur. That's why the word "both" is used, although "both together" might be a better rendering. The
"και ψυχην και σωμα"
The text does not say, "either soul or body."
Perhaps I should say I am a Destructionist.
Kindly,
Rhema
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,470
"A parable is a type of metaphorical analogy."
- David B. Gowler (2000). What are they saying about the parables. Paulist Press. pp. 99, 137, 63, 132, 133. ISBN 9780809139620.
But you tend to make up your own definitions, so... whatever...
Congratulations, you now have a new number one most bizarre things I have ever seen Mr. Lee post.
Have a great day,
Rhema
The Bible is its own dictionary as well as history book.
Without parables Christ the author of prophecy spoke not.
Parables are the signified understandings of Christ hid from natural unconverted mankind . Signified using the temporal historical seen things to give us the unseen gospel understanding
The key needed to rightly divide the parables
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
it would seem especially today many put their trust in lying signs to wonder, wonder, limbo, wonder after as if true prophecy
Parables seem to be a Taboo again to some
Believers have prophecy no need to wonder, wonder, wonder.
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,470
That's just not true Garee.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
(Matthew 13:10-13 KJV)Jesus explained his parables to his disciples, and these explanations are recorded.
Rhema
th1bill
Active
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2012
- Messages
- 497
The Holy Scriptures, when studied with prayer and submission to Ruah is self-explanatory but to they that are not indwelt-believers, it is a mystery.
Thanks
Yes, many parables (signified prophecy) are left not interpreted in order to hide the mysteries from those who seek after signs to wonder, wonder marvel after rather than prophecy. (parables)
They made Jesus into a circus seal. Work some magic create miracle then when we see it with our own eye, we will believe for 1/2 a second
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
My favorite example is in Mark and Luke 9. A series of parables one right after another purposely. Hiding the gospel mystery again and again.
Beginning with the parable of using Moses and Elias to represent all things written in the law and prophets . (Moses and Elias) .
Not understanding they moved to the next. . . the gospel healing of the deaf and dumb, again hiding the unseen eternal understanding (faith) .
At one time in their confusion, they must have thought Jesus the son of man was off his rocker. They began to elect a new Alfa top dog.
Jesus the Son of man. Most likely with the exception of the Father working within. .the loneliest man that ever walked on water even his own family thought he went off the deep end
Again, not understanding the mystery of the parable the apostle John demonstrated his unbelief (no faith) John rejecting the use of a child in that parable.
Jesus defined the us that did not go out from the true us not by looking on the outside temporal dying
In the last of the series of parables the racist Apostles not understanding the spiritual unseen They thought Jesus played a trick on them rather than going to the Jew he went to the gentile. The confused apostles demanded he bring down fire and consume all the Gentiles. establishing the foundation of Paganism. Out of sight out of mind (God calls fools)
Then he rebuked the bunch and revealed to them they knew not what manner of spirit they were of. . . . the dead kind. . . no eternal life
Luke 9:42-55And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.;And they were all amazed (nor belief) at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,;Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.;But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.;And John(not understanding the parable ) answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.;And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,;And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.;And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? ;But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Bill
Loyal
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2018
- Messages
- 4,659
I was working. My job had me away from home for months at a time but when I was home I always took time to go down to my dad's and do all the work that my dad needed to have done at the house even though my brother and sister lived nearby, they never helped.
If it says anything, I'm the youngest of the three and my parents made me the executor of the will. LOL
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,281
No, he wasn't. But even if he would have been... is God Hellenistic? is Jesus?
Deut 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Deut 10:12 "Now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul,
Deut 11:13 "It shall come about, if you listen obediently to my commandments which I am commanding you today, to love the LORD your God and to serve Him with all your heart and all your soul,
Deut 13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deut 30:6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Jos 22:5 "Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, to love the LORD your God and walk in all His ways and keep His commandments and hold fast to Him and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul."
Matt 22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mark 12:30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Luke 10:27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Why do Moses and Jesus separate the heart, soul, mind and strength?
2Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
1Thes 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,281
Saul/Paul was against Hellenism.
Act 9:23 When many days had elapsed, the Jews plotted together to do away with him,
Act 9:24 but their plot became known to Saul. They were also watching the gates day and night so that they might put him to death;
Act 9:25 but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a large basket.
Act 9:26 When he came to Jerusalem, he was trying to associate with the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple.
Act 9:27 But Barnabas took hold of him and brought him to the apostles and described to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had talked to him, and how at Damascus he had spoken out boldly in the name of Jesus.
Act 9:28 And he was with them, moving about freely in Jerusalem, speaking out boldly in the name of the Lord.
Act 9:29 And he was talking and arguing with the Hellenistic Jews; but they were attempting to put him to death.
Act 9:30 But when the brethren learned of it, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him away to Tarsus.
Act 9:31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.
Paul was a strict Jew.
Act 22:3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.
Act 9:23 When many days had elapsed, the Jews plotted together to do away with him,
Act 9:24 but their plot became known to Saul. They were also watching the gates day and night so that they might put him to death;
Act 9:25 but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a large basket.
Act 9:26 When he came to Jerusalem, he was trying to associate with the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple.
Act 9:27 But Barnabas took hold of him and brought him to the apostles and described to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had talked to him, and how at Damascus he had spoken out boldly in the name of Jesus.
Act 9:28 And he was with them, moving about freely in Jerusalem, speaking out boldly in the name of the Lord.
Act 9:29 And he was talking and arguing with the Hellenistic Jews; but they were attempting to put him to death.
Act 9:30 But when the brethren learned of it, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him away to Tarsus.
Act 9:31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.
Paul was a strict Jew.
Act 22:3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,470
I thought you were talking about your mom.
Right. That was my point. YOU were making money while wanting your siblings to work for free. But Elder Care IS work, and isn't the worker worth his wages?
I had to deal with the same thing, but I stopped working to care for mom, who died in my arms. (And it's dang hard work at that, for which I was NOT paid.)
My only concern was that your post sent out an I'm better vibe.
Elder care is not an easy issue having simplistic answers.
We can end amicably if you wish. But I wouldn't despise anyone who desires to be paid for their work.
Blessings,
Rhema
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,470
While there is other evidence, the easiest to show that Paul was Hellenistic is the fact he had the name Paul. He had both a Greek name, and a Hebrew name at the same time. This was common practice amongst the Hellenic Jews. Another fact is that he was BORN a Roman Citizen. One could argue, though, that Paul's parents were Hellenistic instead of him and that Paul rebelled, but Paul freely made use of Hellenistic terminology.
I'm not about to debate the well established view that Paul was a Hellenistic Jew. And Philo of Alexandria, the most prominent Jewish theologian of Jesus time, was most certainly Hellenistic, declaring that Plato was Jewish at heart. (Which might be true, given that the Mycenae may have been the tribe of Dan.)
Philo - Wikipedia
Philo seems to look at humans as a trichotomy of nous (mind), psyche (soul), and soma (body), which was common to the Hellenistic view of the mind-body relationship. In Philo's writings, however, mind and spirit are used interchangeably.
And this is the exact case with Paul's writings - spirit, soul, and body.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
- 1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJVIt's untenable to assert that Paul had no knowledge of Philo's writings.
But let us look at the OT scripture you presented.
Given the Greek world view of Body, Soul, and Spirit. This verse is rejected. What is the heart? What is one's "might"? Just because three words are used here, it doesn't invalidate the Jewish theology that a person IS (became) a Soul. The words are not the same, unless you with to unilaterally declare (without support) that "heart" means "spirit." (But if it does, why not just use "spirit"?
One cannot compare Greek thought with ancient Jewish thought. This is the perfect "apples and oranges" dilemma. It's like saying that the Jewish Sheol is the same thing as the Catholic hell.
Please note that these verses identify TWO elements, and not the Greek THREE.
C'mon B-A-C. Don't get so angry that you forget to count.
Okay, Heart and Soul - Works for me, but that's TWO things, not three.
So now there are FOUR elements to a person?
I actually can't tell if you're asking a real question or being sarcastic in using a paradigm from the TV show Jeopardy (making a statement in the form of a question).
But your quotes from Jesus are worth addressing. Thank you.
Unfortunately, you do the scripture dishonor to cut and paste as you had. So let's look at the entire passage.
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
- Matthew 22:36-40 KJVJesus says something different in Mark:
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
- Mark 12:28-31 KJVBut there is no command to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind. There is no OT scripture that corresponds exactly to these words, though it is obvious that Jesus is referring to:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
- Deuteronomy 6:4-5 KJVNow in the LXX, the words used in Deu. 6 are καρδία (heart), ψυχή (soul), and δύναμις (might - or bodily strength),
But in Mark, Jesus uses four words - καρδία (heart), and ψυχή (soul), but διάνοια (mind - or thought, i.e. intention, purpose) and ἰσχύς (strength of body; which seems to be a synonym of δύναμις.
Interesting that Matthew removes the troublesome fourth word ἰσχύς (strength of body), when that word ought to have been left in if the intent was to quote Deuteronomy.
Finally, Luke 10:27 wasn't even spoken by Jesus. (Maybe Jesus just didn't wish to argue about that at the moment, since He laser-focused in on "neighbor".) But from this passage, we can see that "a certain lawyer" used a Four part composition, which may be what was commonly believed at the time.
So did Jesus get it wrong? Or did Jesus adopt a Greek viewpoint?
@B-A-C, you have one single verse that seems to imply a "three part" composition of Man, a verse that doesn't even correspond to the Greek paradigm. Yet there are many other verses (including those I've already posted from the teachings of Jesus) that use a TWO part paradigm.
Is the heart the spirit? Is the soul the mind? (Not in Mark.)
What we are left with is differing paradigms of a Two, Three, and even Four part composition of Man. But NONE of these match the Greek paradigm that Paul used, which is reflected in the writings of Philo and drawn from the Greek philosophers.
Kindly,
Rhema
Rhema
Active
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2021
- Messages
- 3,470
Peter wasn't.
Now in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a complaint against the Hebrews by the Hellenists, because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution.
- Acts 6:1 NKJVIt would seem that you've been fooled by the word G1675 Ἑλληνιστής Hellēnistēs
LINK to the Liddell Scott Greek Lexicon for G1675 -
A.one who uses the Greek language: a Greek speaking Jew, Act.Ap.6.1, etc.
Acts 6:1 merely shows a divide by common language, not belief. The "Hellenists" in Acts 6:1 were believers.
So he was with them at Jerusalem, coming in and going out. And he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Jews who spoke Greek, but they attempted to kill him.
- Acts 9:28-29 NKJV (fixed)The entire passage of chapter nine that you quoted was to demonstrate that JEWS, both those who spoke Hebrew(?) Aramaic(?) and those who spoke Greek wanted to kill Paul.
There is a difference between Jews who adopted Greek theology, and those who merely spoke the language (what the KJV calls Grecians).
If nothing else, one could claim that Paul was Hellenist because he did speak Greek.
Regards,
Rhema
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 11,926
Beware the Wolves | Love Worth Finding Ministries
In Matthew 7, the Lord warns us about false prophets and to beware of wolves that come to us in sheep’s clothing. In this message, Adrian Rogers informs us of the fleece they wear, the fruit they bear, and the faith they share.
www.lwf.org
Bill
Loyal
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2018
- Messages
- 4,659
I'm sorry if this seems a little bit critiqueish but what you said just irks me the wrong way.
Typically I think a lot better of you than I did when I read this post you wrote that first paragraph just threw me off - I find this thinking to be disgusting personally. To feel like you should still "get" something for helping out your mom and dad. Kind of like the concept of expecting something in return when you're doing good for the Lord. Personally I don't even look for anything for myself, and I get frustrated from people who feel that they should get something in return.
Whatever happened to just doing it for the sake of doing it and not expecting anything.
This was what you wrote that bothered me not the part about working or earning money but the part afterwards
"Right. That was my point. YOU were making money while wanting your siblings to work for free. But Elder Care IS work, and isn't the worker worth his wages?"
If a person is doing it as a job then yes they should be paid for their work. But when you're taking care of your parents don't you think it should be from your heart and not from your pocketbook?
