Why Choose the Church over the Bible

[Rhema]

God created Jesus

Just to note that any Trinitarian would cringe to hear you say that God created Jesus.

The Doctrine of the Trinity states that all three persons are (and always have been) co-eternal. None, then, were created.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Any person with a working brain can see that you are dancing around points made, only criticizing others beliefs and not presenting the A-Z of your actual belief for fear of being banned. See reply # 7 in above post # 111.

Now I need to figure out what soundtrack music to use for your dancing.

 

[Rhema]

The Bible defines words according to "context"

I really wish you understood what context meant.

 

[Rhema]

The other thief heard the gospel but did not mix it with the faith of Christ

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.​

- Matthew 27:38-44 KJV

And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors. And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, Save thyself, and come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.​

- Mark 15:27-32 KJV

​

 

[Garee]

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.​

- Matthew 27:38-44 KJV

And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors. And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, Save thyself, and come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.​

- Mark 15:27-32 KJV

​

Yes one had the faith of Christ working in him to both reveal the will of the Father and empower him to preform it .The other did not mix faith the unseen things of God in what they did hear.

 

[Garee]

I really wish you understood what context meant.

The context of parables .I have leaned and continue to learn how to.

Without parable Christ spoke not .

How do you rightly divide or interpret the parables ?

 

[Rhema]

The words, 'I say unto thee today', is a Hebraism, ... it is a solemn idiom,
Apparently it is used on forty-two occasions in Deuteronomy alone (e.g., Deut 30:19; 2 Sam. 20:20; Job 27:5; Isa. 14:24; Isa. 62:8; Jer.22:5; 27:5; Ezek. 5:11; 33:11; 34:8).

No.
No it is not. And most certainly not apparent.

Deut 30:19 YES.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:​

- Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV

But your "idiom" of 'I say unto thee today', just is NOT in any of the other verses you listed. In truth, your lists disproves your idiom because the word "today" or "this day" isn't in the text of these other solemn oaths.

And Joab answered and said, Far be it, far be it from me, that I should swallow up or destroy.​

- 2 Samuel 20:20 KJV
NO mention of today or this day.

God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me.​

- Job 27:5 KJV
NO mention of today or this day.

The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:​

- Isaiah 14:24 KJV
NO mention of today or this day.

The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:​

- Isaiah 62:8 KJV
Again, absolutely NO mention of today or this day.

But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.​

- Jeremiah 22:5 KJV
Sorry, no unto thee today... in this oath, either.

I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.​

- Jeremiah 27:5 KJV
???

Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.​

- Ezekiel 5:11 KJV
Where is this idiom?

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
- Ezekiel 33:11 KJV
"As I live, saith the Lord GOD," is not "I say unto thee today."

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;​

- Ezekiel 34:8 KJV

And Jesus said nothing about "As I live I say to you."

Might I ask what "search term" you used to compile this list of scripture? I just can't figure out what you're trying to get at.

Thank you,
Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear @complete and @Rhema
I found this an interesting listen from John Lennox, on the use of "day" in the Hebrew. Though it is more concerned with its use in Genesis as it pertains to Creation. I hope you can find it beneficial.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Twistie]

I would like to have a serious discussion as to why Christians choose Church doctrine over the Scriptures. I've said may times that when Scripture runs up against Church doctrine, Church doctrine always wins. This should not be. The Scriptures should "ALWAYS" trump Church doctrine. So, I'd like to have a serious and honest conversation about this, and why it happens. We've discussed the Trinity doctrine so let's give that a break. Let's take the Heavenly Destiny doctrine. Christians claim that they go to Heaven when they die. That is stated "NOWHERE" in Scripture. On the contrary what is stated is Jesus telling the apostles that where He was going, they could not come. So, If Jesus explicitly told the disciples that they could not go to Heaven. Why do Christians believe and teach that people go to Heaven when they die?

Many are in mans traditional ways some believe that God don't even talk to his children some believe ya go to church on Sunday some on Saturday some believes in fasting on food n announcing to the world..
It is written you will know Them by their fruits..
Most then temples keep the spiritually immature because an immature tree can not produce fruit..
They crave the attention of others over seeking what pleases Abba..

I've seen many get nasty n all puffed up when ya disagree with their pastors ways tho their pastors ways to against the word..
I've seen much Evil n many of them Temples

As it is written a house divided will fall n Christianity is chopped up like mince meat to be honest..
Let God Be True and man be a liar⋋⁠✿⁠ ⁠⁰⁠ ⁠o⁠ ⁠⁰⁠ ⁠✿⁠⋌

Anyways if one ponders on that word christian it's a derogatory word..j.s.

(⁠≧⁠▽⁠≦⁠)

＼⁠(⁠◎⁠o⁠◎⁠)⁠／

 

[KingJ]

@Rhema As always you type a lot of fluff and do not deal with my accusations of yours and @BUTCH's beliefs.

But you stated that God was punishing Himself. Doesn't that mean that God sinned?

No. I have used the example of parents commtting to pain in childbirth numerous times now.

Since God is the Creator, our reconciliation was part and parcel of His plan for mankind.

If God hasn't sinned and is still rightist and just, how could he punish Himself?

Rhema
(evasion in 3..2..1..)

Explained above.

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.​

- Isaiah 9:6 Brenton

Note the ''given to us''.

Just to note that any Trinitarian would cringe to hear you say that God created Jesus. The Doctrine of the Trinity states that all three persons are (and always have been) co-eternal. None, then, were created.

God 100% created Jesus. Jesus is God the Son. He created the flesh He indwelt. He impregnated Mary.

You are misreading or intentionally trolling.

 

[KingJ]

Now I need to figure out what soundtrack music to use for your dancing.

KingJ said:
Any person with a working brain can see that you are dancing around points made, only criticizing others beliefs and not presenting the A-Z of your actual belief for fear of being banned. See reply # 7 in above post # 111.

Says the co conspirator who will also not disclose their belief of a good (cough cough), evil God.

Imagine believing and teaching the lost that God loves and died for that He didn't die for them. He chose some unlucky random individual who drew the shortest straw to suffer a cruel death for sins He did not commit, to pay a debt He did not create.

@Rhema Any person with a working brain can see that you are dancing around points made, only criticizing others beliefs and not presenting the A-Z of your actual belief for fear of being banned. See reply # 7 in above post # 111.

 

[KingJ]

And yet that's not what the text says...

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:​

- Ephesians 1:4 KJV

Absolutely nothing in that verse says anything about a Plan or a Cross. (Please, at least be honest and admit that.)

Having read that verse, do you believe God would have created mankind without planning to send Jesus? Yes or No?

You are too eager to try find fault and grab a straw. You walked right into the elephant.

What always befuddles me is why people think "before" means "prior to" rather than "in front of." Isn't Foundation a noun? So the text was NOT written "prior to the FOUNDING of the world."

Take the common phrase, "He put the cart before the horse." This cannot possibly mean the cart was "prior to" the horse. That doesn't make sense. The horse could have been standing there for hours prior to (before) someone bringing along a cart. But the phrase certainly means that the cart was put "in front" of the horse, (rather than behind the horse where it belongs).

In both English and Koine Greek, the word "before" can either denote a time relation to a verbal event (prior to), OR a location referent to an object (in front of).

So what (or who) is your FOUNDATION? Who is the Foundation of the World but Christ? We build upon a foundation.

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.​

- 1 Corinthians 3:11 KJV

According as he hath chosen us in him, in front of Jesus Christ, the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:​

- Ephesians 1:4 KJV-advanced

Indeed,
Rhema

Rhema, even by your standards, what a load of croc. Your mind is not on planet earth, for real bud. I think you need to go take a nap and come back.

 

[complete]

Dear @complete and @Rhema
I found this an interesting listen from John Lennox, on the use of "day" in the Hebrew. Though it is more concerned with its use in Genesis as it pertains to Creation. I hope you can find it beneficial.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

Thank you, @Christ4Ever,

Very thought provoking.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

No.
No it is not. And most certainly not apparent.

Deut 30:19 YES.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:​

- Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV

But your "idiom" of 'I say unto thee today', just is NOT in any of the other verses you listed. In truth, your lists disproves your idiom because the word "today" or "this day" isn't in the text of these other solemn oaths.

And Joab answered and said, Far be it, far be it from me, that I should swallow up or destroy.​

- 2 Samuel 20:20 KJV
NO mention of today or this day.

God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me.​

- Job 27:5 KJV
NO mention of today or this day.

The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:​

- Isaiah 14:24 KJV
NO mention of today or this day.

The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:​

- Isaiah 62:8 KJV
Again, absolutely NO mention of today or this day.

But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.​

- Jeremiah 22:5 KJV
Sorry, no unto thee today... in this oath, either.

I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.​

- Jeremiah 27:5 KJV
???

Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.​

- Ezekiel 5:11 KJV
Where is this idiom?

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
- Ezekiel 33:11 KJV
"As I live, saith the Lord GOD," is not "I say unto thee today."

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;​

- Ezekiel 34:8 KJV

And Jesus said nothing about "As I live I say to you."

Might I ask what "search term" you used to compile this list of scripture? I just can't figure out what you're trying to get at.

Thank you,
Rhema

Hello @Rhema,

The wording itself is not the issue, but the figure of speech that they form, which is found in relation to each example I gave in reply #116.

My sources were, 'Figures of Speech found in Scripture,' by Dr. E.W. Bullinger, and also the marginal notes in my Bible.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Garee]

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:- Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV

This day (24\7) the today spoken of in Hebrews 4. Or did that record end when the Sun went down???

 

[Rhema]

@Rhema As always you type a lot of fluff and do not deal with my accusations of yours

Why can't you just answer my questions instead of deflecting? (And you know you're deflecting.)

 

[KingJ]

Why can't you just answer my questions instead of deflecting? (And you know you're deflecting.)

Originally, I asked as follows:

Question 1 A, Question 1 B, Question 1 C. You and Butch have to date, over fifty posts, still not addressed the arguments raised. Only moved goal posts and or pretended they don't exist. I asked from both of you extremely simple and truthful Yes or No answers .

You have the audacity to accuse me of deflecting .

I tell you what, redeem yourself with 'one' simple question and I will re-visit your posts above with more interest.

-------------------------------

Multiple choice - Question 1 :

Exodus 34:14 makes crystal clear the fact that God is a jealous God. He will annihilate from this earth any of His people who serve and worship another God. Is it fine to serve and worship Jesus?

Exo 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Possible answers:

A - Yes. We must worship Jesus as He is God the Son.
B - No. We must not worship Jesus as He is not God. Every Christian on this planet that encourages and or does this, is a heretic.
C - I can't answer for fear of being banned. I would be guilty of mocking the Holy Spirit for failing terribly at His 'one' job of teaching 2.4 billion of God's people to not worship Jesus.

 

[Rhema]

Originally, I asked as follows:

Question 1 A, Question 1 B, Question 1 C. You and Butch have to date, over fifty posts, still not addressed the arguments raised.

Yet Butch and I aren't a tag team, so you klumping anything from Butch onto me is pretty cringe. You made some theological claims that I found suspect, so I made comment about them with a few questions, and that seemed to bother you a lot.

You have the audacity to accuse me of deflecting

Yeah, because you did. I know what you do. I know how you handle content that refutes your views. You play the victim with a lot of hoopla and sabre rattling. I'd much rather have a substantive conversation about the content. Instead you deflect by turning everything into a personality conflict. Gets old real fast.

I tell you what, redeem yourself with 'one' simple question

As if I care. But since you're asking me a question, I'll reply. As to what you do next, do what you want.

Okay, so let's look at Exodus 34:14

Ye shall destroy their altars, and break in pieces their pillars, and ye shall cut down their groves, and the graven images of their gods ye shall burn with fire. For ye shall not worship strange gods, for the Lord God, a jealous name, is a jealous God; lest at any time thou make a covenant with the dwellers on the land, and they go a ******* after their gods, and sacrifice to their gods, and they call thee, and thou shouldest eat of their feasts,​

- Exodus 34:13-15 Brenton

In light of the above, your question is:

Is it fine to serve and worship Jesus?

Let's see what Jesus has to say about it:

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.​

- Matthew 4:10 KJV

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.​

- Luke 4:8 KJV

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.​

- John 4:23 KJV

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.​

- 1 Corinthians 14:25 KJV

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.​

- Philippians 3:2-3 KJV

At this point it would seem obvious that we are to worship God (aka the Father) and REJOICE in Jesus.

But I've been very open and honest that there are two books not in our canon, that of Revelation and Hebrews. And these are the only two books left that might describe any type of behaviour that could be considered "worshiping" Jesus (G4352 προσκυνέω proskuneō).

I am sure, though, that you accept these God forsaken books as scripture, and so you are welcome to do as you please. But I just went though every valid verse in our NT that mentioned G4352 and G3000. Many people on their own decided to worship Jesus, but the only directive I find, says that we should worship God and REJOICE in Christ Jesus.

I just don't think it wise to follow what other people might or might not do.

So...Is it fine to serve and worship Jesus?
I can find no scripture that says yes.

Now in the past, when someone posts a supported view that differs from what you personally believe, you tend to just go off in a rant of ad hominem. Can we bypass this for once? And (outside of Hebrews and Revelation of course) are you able to post any scripture verses that command us to worship Jesus? Maybe I missed something.

Rhema

Possible answers:

....cringe

 

[Garee]

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.- Matthew 4:10 KJV

Jesus the apostle/ prophet is given words from Christ the Father the husband of the bride . Three times he prophecies as it is written. By the power of the Father's word the devil vanished

As King mentioned

Exo 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

They accused the Jesus the born-again Son of god of blasphemy

John 10:34-36Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?;If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Have no other gods before him to include your own self

 

[KingJ]

Yet Butch and I aren't a tag team, so you klumping anything from Butch onto me is pretty cringe. You made some theological claims that I found suspect, so I made comment about them with a few questions, and that seemed to bother you a lot.


Yeah, because you did. I know what you do. I know how you handle content that refutes your views. You play the victim with a lot of hoopla and sabre rattling. I'd much rather have a substantive conversation about the content. Instead you deflect by turning everything into a personality conflict. Gets old real fast.


As if I care. But since you're asking me a question, I'll reply. As to what you do next, do what you want.

Okay, so let's look at Exodus 34:14

Ye shall destroy their altars, and break in pieces their pillars, and ye shall cut down their groves, and the graven images of their gods ye shall burn with fire. For ye shall not worship strange gods, for the Lord God, a jealous name, is a jealous God; lest at any time thou make a covenant with the dwellers on the land, and they go a ******* after their gods, and sacrifice to their gods, and they call thee, and thou shouldest eat of their feasts,​

- Exodus 34:13-15 Brenton

In light of the above, your question is:

Is it fine to serve and worship Jesus?

Let's see what Jesus has to say about it:

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.​

- Matthew 4:10 KJV

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.​

- Luke 4:8 KJV

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.​

- John 4:23 KJV

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.​

- 1 Corinthians 14:25 KJV

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.​

- Philippians 3:2-3 KJV

At this point it would seem obvious that we are to worship God (aka the Father) and REJOICE in Jesus.

But I've been very open and honest that there are two books not in our canon, that of Revelation and Hebrews. And these are the only two books left that might describe any type of behaviour that could be considered "worshiping" Jesus (G4352 προσκυνέω proskuneō).

I am sure, though, that you accept these God forsaken books as scripture, and so you are welcome to do as you please. But I just went though every valid verse in our NT that mentioned G4352 and G3000. Many people on their own decided to worship Jesus, but the only directive I find, says that we should worship God and REJOICE in Christ Jesus.

I just don't think it wise to follow what other people might or might not do.

So...Is it fine to serve and worship Jesus?
I can find no scripture that says yes.

Now in the past, when someone posts a supported view that differs from what you personally believe, you tend to just go off in a rant of ad hominem. Can we bypass this for once? And (outside of Hebrews and Revelation of course) are you able to post any scripture verses that command us to worship Jesus? Maybe I missed something.

Rhema



....cringe

Imagine asking for a yes or no answer and receiving all this emotional cherry picked drivel.

So I guess in a very long winded reply, you choose option B and C.