The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief
- Thread starter KingJ
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KingJ
Loyal
I assume you are a Catholic. Catholics can lean a lot more on a non-OSAS side over Protestants. That is because they teach Purgatory. A place that someone who fell from grace can make right with God. There is absolutely no way to incriminate God as unjust as a result.
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I do not believe Judas was ever saved. The only disciple that could make an argument for being 'saved' (at the time of Jesus) I think is Peter. We see in Matt 15:16-17 that Peter received a revelation of who Jesus was. This revelation that according to 1 Cor 12:3 is something special that only God can give and this after He judges our hearts Jer 17:9-10. When we are given this revelation we are saved as Rom 10:9 explains.
Rom 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 Cor 12:3 No one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says "Jesus is accursed!", and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.
Lucifer is an interesting case study. I believe we need to grasp a bit more context in our thinking with the angels. Humans, outside of Adam and Eve were born into a place of sin that is outside of God's presence. We come to God by true repentance Psalm 51:17, true servitude James 1:27 or martyrdom Rev 2:10. As these show a depth of intent. IE We go from a place of sin to a place of righteousness from a depth of intent of our heart. Angels on the other hand, go from a place of righteousness to a place of sin from a depth of intent of their hearts. I do not believe Lucifer committed venial sins for example. I believe his sins were mortal sins. And he continued in them with no remorse. God judge their hearts for being sold out to a love of sin, just as He would judge our hearts for being sold out to a love of what is good and righteous.
Rom 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
John 3:19 And this is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.
KingJ
Loyal
Non-OSAS is easily linked to a works based salvation.
But we must be careful to accuse all non-OSAS believers of this. I am OSAS as I believe God can judge hearts at depths of intent and does not make mistakes of grafting demons into heaven or removing them from heaven. IE OSAS from God's perspective. But from our perspective, I would not completely disagree with a non-OSAS belief. Purely as we can and do make mistakes of assuming we are saved when we are not.
I agree. But I am sure you will agree with me that we need to better explain this to the unsaved.
Agreed!
KingJ
Loyal
According to Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 you had sinners / people who disobeyed God's commandments in both Paradise and a fiery Hell all within Hades.
Sinner and sinner was divided between those who love what is evil verse those that hate it Rom 12:9.
God does not want sinless perfection from us, he wants repentance of sin Psalm 51:17.
The verdict is that people reject Jesus because they love the darkness.
John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
KingJ
Loyal
I don't agree.
Lets say you are married. Do you throw your spouse out of your house if she lusts in her mind after someone else? Do you throw your children out if they bully other children at school?
The criteria to become a Christian is at a depth of intent. We are adopted into the family of God Eph 1:5. Making a spouse and child a very good example to use. God is not fickle. He overlooks many sins. We are made perfect to God Heb 10:14 and will never be perfect like Him Mark 10:18.
Heb 10:14 by a single offering, he has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.
All He wants from us is a contrite and broken heart and spirit.
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
KingJ
Loyal
As mentioned many times before. Please note the below three matters.
1. Be very careful on forming an ideology around cherry picked scripture.
You come across as the non-OSAS believer that takes the wrong path as described in my OP. There are many scriptures that prove OSAS that you are ignoring. I mentioned a few in the OP that you have not even attempted to rebut.
2. Paul has many warnings that appear to be non-OSAS for two reasons:
A. He would rather have us examining ourselves and ensuring we are saved over assuming it.
B. He spoke to all in attendance as though they are saved. It was respectful to do this.
Paul's teaching would separate Christian from non-Christian. We see this clearly in 1 Cor 5. Where He says a 'brother or sister so called' guilty of incest.
1 Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate.
1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister.
3. None of those scriptures you provided in Hebrews describe a Christian.
A Christian is not simply 'enlightened'. Someone who 'tasted'. Someone who 'shared in'. You are thinking that friends and friends of friends that come to your house for a party are family. No, they are not. You have an incorrect idea of what a Christian is.
Please read the OP here:
And here:
KingJ
Loyal
It is quite odd to read you type two posts that completely contradict each other.
Every verse here contradicts your implied message from cherry picked scriptures in post # 5.
KingJ
Loyal
Gothedral
Active
It's weird that you assumed I am "Catholic", then proceeded to type out of context Lol. I know this is an online thing, but you can ask me direct questions, so you know how to continue 
You're fine
Discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit. All of us should seek this talent. I like to keep things simple, like focusing on the two greatest commandments that Christ taught us all. Everything else is a personal testimony, and everyone will answer to Christ.
I sincerely hope to meet you all in Heaven.
You're fine Discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit. All of us should seek this talent. I like to keep things simple, like focusing on the two greatest commandments that Christ taught us all. Everything else is a personal testimony, and everyone will answer to Christ.
I sincerely hope to meet you all in Heaven.
Leumas
Member
You're right, God does not want sinless perfection, from the children of the devil. However he requires sinless perfection from his own children. He even commanded them to be perfect and sinless as he is in heaven.
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Leumas
Member
How can I make someone to know that what they think they know is the truth, is not the truth? Have you ever tried to tell someone that didn't know, that they didn't know what they believe is the truth, is not the truth?
That's the problem I would have with you if I were to try to teach you the truth.
Leumas
Member
None of this here you have said to me makes any sense to me. In fact who taught you this theology?
The Gospel of Christ
Active
The real big problem isn’t with non-OSAS theology — it’s with pretending the Bible teaches a salvation that requires no endurance, no repentance, and no fruit.
You say we shouldn’t 'play God' by warning someone they’ve fallen — but Jesus commanded us to warn, rebuke, and even cast out those who are in unrepentant sin (Matt. 18, Titus 3:10, 1 Cor. 5). Paul didn’t say ‘I don’t know’ about Hymenaeus and Alexander — he delivered them to Satan. John didn’t waffle over Diotrephes — he called him out. Jesus didn’t say 'I can’t judge Laodicea’s hearts' — He said ‘I will spit you out.’
You keep quoting Rom. 10:9 and John 3:16 like they’re a one-and-done salvation coupon. But James 2:19 says even demons believe. Jesus said not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the Kingdom — only those who do the will of His Father (Matt. 7:21). So no — a confession alone isn’t a guarantee. Faith without works is dead.
And your 'list of heresies' is nothing but a pile of strawmen. No serious believer claims God is unjust for calling people to holiness or allowing consequences for rebellion. What is unjust is preaching a Gospel where Judas could be “eternally secure” after betraying Christ, or where a man who denies Jesus to the end still inherits a crown just because he made a decision at youth group.
That’s not Christianity. That’s American consumerism with a Jesus sticker on it.
OSAS isn’t the Gospel. It’s a spiritual sedative — one that hardens hearts, silences accountability, and tells lukewarm people they're safe while they drift toward destruction.
The Church desperately needs to wake up — not to fear of losing salvation every five minutes, but to the biblical truth:
We are saved by grace through faith — but that faith must be alive, obedient, and enduring. (Eph. 2:8-10, Heb. 10:26-29, John 15:6)
To teach anything less is to stumble the little ones — and Jesus had some chilling words about that." (Matt. 18:6)
You say we shouldn’t 'play God' by warning someone they’ve fallen — but Jesus commanded us to warn, rebuke, and even cast out those who are in unrepentant sin (Matt. 18, Titus 3:10, 1 Cor. 5). Paul didn’t say ‘I don’t know’ about Hymenaeus and Alexander — he delivered them to Satan. John didn’t waffle over Diotrephes — he called him out. Jesus didn’t say 'I can’t judge Laodicea’s hearts' — He said ‘I will spit you out.’
You keep quoting Rom. 10:9 and John 3:16 like they’re a one-and-done salvation coupon. But James 2:19 says even demons believe. Jesus said not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the Kingdom — only those who do the will of His Father (Matt. 7:21). So no — a confession alone isn’t a guarantee. Faith without works is dead.
And your 'list of heresies' is nothing but a pile of strawmen. No serious believer claims God is unjust for calling people to holiness or allowing consequences for rebellion. What is unjust is preaching a Gospel where Judas could be “eternally secure” after betraying Christ, or where a man who denies Jesus to the end still inherits a crown just because he made a decision at youth group.
That’s not Christianity. That’s American consumerism with a Jesus sticker on it.
OSAS isn’t the Gospel. It’s a spiritual sedative — one that hardens hearts, silences accountability, and tells lukewarm people they're safe while they drift toward destruction.
The Church desperately needs to wake up — not to fear of losing salvation every five minutes, but to the biblical truth:
We are saved by grace through faith — but that faith must be alive, obedient, and enduring. (Eph. 2:8-10, Heb. 10:26-29, John 15:6)
To teach anything less is to stumble the little ones — and Jesus had some chilling words about that." (Matt. 18:6)
KingJ
Loyal
You bolded and enlarged words that prove they did not have the Holy Spirit.
A Christian is not someone who 'shared' in the Holy Spirit
.
KingJ
Loyal
Sinless perfection is impossible for any of us. It is not want God wants, no.
He wants 1. A right heart, one that will always repent when it realizes it has sinned and 2. Our constant pursuit of being righteous.
Leumas
Member
Nothing, and I say nothing, is impossible or out of reach, to who is born of the Spirit, of the Almighty living God most high.
First and the Last
Member
I appreciate the effort to lay out the emotional and theological tension that exists between OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) and non-OSAS perspectives. I’ve wrestled deeply with these questions myself. I understand the appeal of OSAS—it offers comfort, security, and a sense of stability in a chaotic world. But as I’ve searched the Scriptures, prayed, and looked beyond the assumptions I grew up with, I’ve come to believe that the deeper issue isn’t OSAS versus non-OSAS—it’s whether we are allowing all of Scripture to speak, or only the parts that soothe our fears.
Here’s where I land: I do believe that salvation is secure—but only in Christ. I don’t believe salvation is something we can earn, nor do I believe we’re hopping in and out of it with every stumble or failure. But Scripture is clear: salvation can be rejected, neglected, and even departed from—not because God failed, but because we chose to walk away. The Bible repeatedly warns believers, not unbelievers, with sobering language: “If any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him” (Hebrews 10:38), “Take heed lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God” (Hebrews 3:12), and “You are fallen from grace” (Galatians 5:4).
That’s not about “playing God” or condemning others—it’s about acknowledging that grace is a relationship, not a contract. God’s grace is powerful, sustaining, and patient—but it’s never coercive. He won’t drag someone kicking and screaming into heaven against their will. He gives us the Spirit to keep us, but He doesn’t override our free will. If I harden my heart over time, continually ignore the voice of the Spirit, and no longer care about repentance, I am not “secure”—I’m self-deceived.
Now, I completely agree with your warning about the wrong way to approach this. It is dangerous—spiritually arrogant, even—to presume we know with certainty who is saved and who is not. That’s not our place. I must always approach others with humility, realizing I don’t know what God is doing in their hearts. But humility goes both ways—I also can’t presume someone is saved just because they once prayed a prayer or had an emotional experience. Jesus warned of those who would say “Lord, Lord,” and yet He would say to them, “I never knew you” (Matthew 7:21–23). That’s not about God being inconsistent—it’s about people having a form of godliness without ever truly surrendering their lives to Him.
You brought up Jeremiah 17:9–10, and I fully agree—God alone knows the heart. That’s why we must not build doctrine around human logic or emotion. We must let the Word judge us, not the other way around. That means we also can’t dismiss the clear biblical witness that shows believers can be “cut off” (Romans 11:22), can “make shipwreck” of their faith (1 Timothy 1:19), or can “draw back to perdition” (Hebrews 10:39).
I don’t think people lose their salvation casually or instantly. But I also don’t believe in a salvation that’s irreversible regardless of fruit. John 15 tells us that branches in Christ that do not bear fruit are cut off. That’s not a threat—it’s a sobering reminder to abide in Him daily.
So no, I don’t believe God makes mistakes. He doesn’t accidentally “graft Judas into heaven.” Judas had a choice. Demas had a choice. Ananias and Sapphira had a choice. And so do we. God is not mocked. His grace is not cheap. And while He is able to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24), that promise is to the humble, submitted believer—not the one who uses grace as a license to live disconnected from His voice.
In the end, I don’t think the problem is non-OSAS. The problem is arrogance—on either side of the debate. If OSAS causes someone to become careless and passive, it’s just as dangerous as if non-OSAS causes someone to become judgmental and fearful. The key is abiding in Christ, walking in the Spirit, and enduring in faith with humility.
And I agree with your closing point from Matthew 18:6—it’s a terrifying thing to cause someone to stumble. But stumbling comes in many forms: telling someone they can never be lost when they clearly have no fruit of repentance, or telling someone they are lost forever because they messed up last week. Both are false, and both can cause spiritual harm.
So I’ll continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that He is faithful—but also that I must remain in Him. And I’ll never presume to know another person’s end. Only God sees the heart. Only God knows the whole story. But He has told me enough in His Word to keep me humble, watchful, and utterly dependent on Him every day.
KingJ
Loyal
Sure, God can do anything. But scripture and reality all around us is rather crystal clear that He chooses to do what is good and righteous only.
For Him to make us perfect like Him, it would require the removal of our free will. That would be evil, very evil.
God is not evil. He is righteous in all His ways
Psalm 145:17 - The Lord is righteous in all his ways and faithful in all he does.
God makes us perfect to Him, not perfect like Him.
Heb 10:14 - For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Only God is perfect and good. Only God!
Mark 10:18 - “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good except God alone.
KingJ
Loyal
I agree with repentance. But did the criminal next to Jesus on the cross who went to paradise have endurance and fruit?
Oh really?
Explain to me how sending a criminal next to Jesus on the cross who only repented of their sins to eternal bliss and then one who does this and so much more to eternal punishment should they fall from grace in year 51 of servitude lets say.
Go floor is yours.....
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PS I am willing to bet $1 million that every person on this planet with a working brain will agree with me and not you on this, so really good luck explaining.
Your post is a perfect case study for why certain types of non-OSAS believers can so easily incriminate God. We see it is simply extreme ignorance and naivety.