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Bad Assumptions about the Bible

The Greek terms in the NT:


  1. Gehenna(γέεννα) - 12 times
    • Jesus uses it (Matthew 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5)
    • James uses it once (James 3:6)
    • Always refers to final judgment/punishment
  2. Hades(ᾅδης) - 10 times
    • The realm of the dead (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Revelation 1:18, 6:8, 20:13-14)
    • Revelation 20:14 explicitly says Hades itself gets thrown into the Lake of Fire
  3. Tartarus(ταρταρόω) - 1 time
    • 2 Peter 2:4, specifically about fallen angels
  4. Lake of Fire(λίμνη τοῦ πυρός) - 5 times
    • All in Revelation (19:20, 20:10, 14-15, 21:8)
    • Explicitly called "the second death"

English translations used "hell" as an umbrella term for these concepts of judgment/punishment. When someone reads "hell" in most English Bibles, the underlying Greek is usually Gehenna or sometimes Hades—but the translators weren't trying to deceive anyone. They were using the common English theological term for eternal punishment.

The "Lake of Fire" is the most explicit NT term for final, eternal punishment, and it appears only in Revelation's apocalyptic visions.

If you do a bible study today you would not use the word 'hell'. You would use Hades and Lake of fire. As the meaning of the word 'hell' in English vernacular has evolved to mean afterlife torment and final punishment.
  • Pre-400 AD: Hell = hidden realm / grave
  • 400–900 AD: Hell begins to include punishment and torment
  • 600–1000 AD: Fire and suffering become dominant imagery
  • 1100–1300 AD: Hell becomes final punishment
  • 1200–1500 AD: Hell becomes eternally final
  • 1611 AD: English Bible cements all meanings into one word
We are fortunate that 'lake of fire' has not yet been translated as 'hell'.
 
That's my point.
Knowing full well that God and everything in the Bible happened and is real and is far worse than any human conceived "pain".
A good parent punished his/her child for wrong-doing regardless of what it is.
A bad parent let's them "do whatever when they turn 18"; though they are free to do that.
With us, any punishment a person gets is just and perfect.

I agree with your point, but...

I wouldn't say punishing children is a good analogy. Those that go to hell were never 'children of God'. Scripture calls a Christian a child of God. And God would not in a trillion years send a child to hell. Hell is so much more than merely a place of punishment.

A child receives discipline of no pocket money, no computer games or if really naughty, a hiding on the bum. Not abandoned, thrown into a fire to live on in a place that houses only evil people for all eternity.

The "realm of the dead" is TINY and minuscule compared to the LoF.

Not sure if you know my beliefs on hell. I believe the Lake of fire can be compared to the island called ''Krakatoa''.

Krakatoa has the most terrifying volcano on it. But outside of that, it is a beautiful place with many things to do.

We need to evolve our understanding of hell. Too many focus only on fire and scripture speaking of it. Yes there is fire. Yes all will be placed in fire as punishment for their sins. Yes you need an eternal fire as people in hell are unrepentant sinners and will always need to be punished. But what happens when punishment has been satisfied? Is it not evil to give punishment harsher than the crime? Is God evil?

Direct punishment in fire for sins, according to Jesus in Luke 16, starts with Hades. So Hades I feel would actually be worse than the lake of fire. Hades is a waiting place where you start your punishment of fire. Lake of fire is a home that has a lake where you will serve out the remainder of your punishment and receive any new punishment required.

This fact is arrived at simply by grasping that God is both good and just. If any disagree with me, you need to explain how punishment beyond one's actual sins is just and good. Rom 2:6 is crystal clear that God punishes according to crime. Job 34:12 is crystal clear that God is just.

People in the LoF live on with four curses. Outside of those curses, life is pretty ordinary. Much like Adam and Eve received four curses when they sinned. But sure, the curses in LoF are much worse. 1. Punishment by fire Matt 13:42, 2. Separation Luke 13:28, 3. Darkness / surround by evil John 3:19, 4. Eternal punishment Matt 25:46.
 
In Jesus's earthly ministry His half-brothers did not believe in Him. His Apostles, given the ability to heal, and cast out demons, did believe in Him and only the Apostles shared the Passover with Jesus in the upper room. James and Jude were not there and not Apostles. James was the pastor of the Jerusalem church, nothing mo

  • Pre-400 AD: Hell = hidden realm / grave
  • 400–900 AD: Hell begins to include punishment and torment
  • 600–1000 AD: Fire and suffering become dominant imagery
  • 1100–1300 AD: Hell becomes final punishment
  • 1200–1500 AD: Hell becomes eternally final
  • 1611 AD: English Bible cements all meanings into one word

So now you're saying the Bible is corrupted and changed over the years?
 
In Jesus's earthly ministry His half-brothers did not believe in Him. His Apostles, given the ability to heal, and cast out demons, did believe in Him and only the Apostles shared the Passover with Jesus in the upper room. James and Jude were not there and not Apostles. James was the pastor of the Jerusalem church, nothing more

 
I agree with your point, but...

I wouldn't say punishing children is a good analogy. Those that go to hell were never 'children of God'. Scripture calls a Christian a child of God. And God would not in a trillion years send a child to hell. Hell is so much more than merely a place of punishment.

A child receives discipline of no pocket money, no computer games or if really naughty, a hiding on the bum. Not abandoned, thrown into a fire to live on in a place that houses only evil people for all eternity.



Not sure if you know my beliefs on hell. I believe the Lake of fire can be compared to the island called ''Krakatoa''.

Krakatoa has the most terrifying volcano on it. But outside of that, it is a beautiful place with many things to do.

We need to evolve our understanding of hell. Too many focus only on fire and scripture speaking of it. Yes there is fire. Yes all will be placed in fire as punishment for their sins. Yes you need an eternal fire as people in hell are unrepentant sinners and will always need to be punished. But what happens when punishment has been satisfied? Is it not evil to give punishment harsher than the crime? Is God evil?

Direct punishment in fire for sins, according to Jesus in Luke 16, starts with Hades. So Hades I feel would actually be worse than the lake of fire. Hades is a waiting place where you start your punishment of fire. Lake of fire is a home that has a lake where you will serve out the remainder of your punishment and receive any new punishment required.

This fact is arrived at simply by grasping that God is both good and just. If any disagree with me, you need to explain how punishment beyond one's actual sins is just and good. Rom 2:6 is crystal clear that God punishes according to crime. Job 34:12 is crystal clear that God is just.

People in the LoF live on with four curses. Outside of those curses, life is pretty ordinary. Much like Adam and Eve received four curses when they sinned. But sure, the curses in LoF are much worse. 1. Punishment by fire Matt 13:42, 2. Separation Luke 13:28, 3. Darkness / surround by evil John 3:19, 4. Eternal punishment Matt 25:46.
There will not be children in Heaven. It makes no sense to keep a person an "Infant, baby, toddler, pre-teen, teenager for eternity.
1. Infants, babies, and children don't have the intelligence or capability to make a good informed decision for or against God.
2. There won't be old people in heaven either.
It makes more sense for God to put people at an "optimal age with a glorified body.

Just punishment can't happen on a person who never had the opportunity or mental ability to know the difference.
 
So now you're saying the Bible is corrupted and changed over the years?

How do you get that from my post? You are not properly reading. The word hell has changed in meaning. New English translations should remove the word hell and use original Greek names.
 
You said Peter sponsored Paul. I disagree. Jesus chose Peter and Jesus chose Paul. Paul is the 12th Apostle. Peter acknowledged Paul in his letter as an equal. Martin Luther translated the German bible and did not believe that James should be in the canon.
 
Rockerduck,


You're missing the distinction between divine calling and church recognition. Anyone can claim "Jesus chose me" - Joseph Smith did, Muhammad did, countless false teachers have. That's why the early church required verification.


What "sponsorship" means in this context:


Sponsorship means an established apostle vouched for someone in their writings, confirming that person was a trusted fellow worker and their teaching was sound. It's how the church distinguished genuine teachers from false ones.


Example: Paul


Yes, Jesus chose Paul. But Paul didn't just show up saying "trust me, Jesus appeared to me" and expect that to be enough. Look at what happened:


  • Paul needed Barnabas to vouch for him to the apostles (Acts 9:26-27)
  • The Jerusalem apostles had to give him "the right hand of fellowship" (Galatians 2:9)
  • Peter validated Paul's writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16)

Without that validation chain, Paul would've been just another guy claiming divine revelation - no different than any heretic.


Example: Luke


Luke wasn't an apostle. Who sponsored him? Paul did. Paul calls Luke "beloved physician" and "fellow worker" in his epistles (Colossians 4:14, 2 Timothy 4:11, Philemon 1:24). When Luke's Gospel circulated, churches could verify: "Paul vouched for this man in letters Peter already recognized as Scripture."


The problem with James and Jude:


If they weren't among the Twelve, where's their sponsorship? There's no verse where Peter or Paul says "James is my fellow worker" or validates Jude's teaching. The validation chain doesn't exist.


About Martin Luther:


You mentioned Luther doubted James. So what? Luther wasn't an apostle. Peter didn't validate Luther. Luther showed up 1,500 years after the canon was closed and questioned James because it contradicted his theology ("faith alone" vs. James 2:24).


Peter validated Paul in 2 Peter 3:15-16. No apostle validated Luther. See the difference?


The actual evidence:


Scripture tells us Mary had sons named James and Judas (Matthew 13:55). There were apostles named James (son of Alphaeus) and Judas/Thaddaeus - not Iscariot (Matthew 10:3, Luke 6:16). Paul calls James "the Lord's brother" and identifies him as an apostle (Galatians 1:19). Jude calls himself "brother of James" (Jude 1:1).


That's not three different James and three different Judas - it's the same people. Jesus' brothers were among the Twelve. They didn't need sponsors because they were apostles themselves.


Your move: Show me where James and Jude were sponsored by an apostle. If you can't, then either their books don't belong in the canon (which you don't believe), or they were apostles themselves (which is what I'm arguing).

=================

Rev 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Perhaps Luther should have known this passage.

That's not "you'll be corrected later" or "you'll lose some rewards." That's exclusion from eternal life.
 

The Direct Connection​


Jude 1:1 - "Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James"


Galatians 1:19 - "But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother"


Paul explicitly calls James "the Lord's brother" in the context of identifying him as one of the apostles.


The Greek is Clear​


Galatians 1:19 in Greek: "ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ κυρίου"


Translation: "But other of the apostles I did not see, except James the brother of the Lord"


Paul is listing apostles. James the Lord's brother is in that list. He's not saying "I saw James, who isn't an apostle but is the Lord's brother." He's saying "I saw James the Lord's brother, who is one of the apostles."


The Chain of Identification​


  1. Jude says: "I'm the brother of James"
  2. Paul says: "James the Lord's brother is one of the apostles"
  3. Therefore: Jude's brother James = James the apostle = James the Lord's brother

All three are the same person.

The Verification Problem​


This is why the early church insisted on the sponsorship rule:


Claims are cheap. Validation is everything.

  • Joseph Smith claimed Jesus appeared to him
  • Muhammad claimed Gabriel gave him revelation
  • Every heretic and false teacher claimed divine authority
  • The Gnostics claimed "secret knowledge" from Jesus

Without verification, anyone can claim anything.


The Apostolic Firewall​


The early church created a verification system:
  1. Jesus chose the Twelve - eyewitnesses, public commission
  2. The Twelve validated others - Paul needed their recognition
  3. No self-authentication allowed - even Paul had to be vouched for
This is why Paul's conversion story matters so much:
  • He claimed Jesus appeared to him
  • But the apostles didn't just take his word for it
  • Barnabas had to vouch for him (Acts 9:26-27)
  • The Jerusalem pillars had to give him the "right hand of fellowship" (Galatians 2:9)
  • Peter had to publicly validate his writings (2 Peter 3:15-16)

Paul couldn't self-authenticate. Even with a genuine Damascus Road experience, he needed apostolic validation.

Your Argument Fails​


You say "Jesus chose Paul" as if that settles it. But:

  • Jesus chose Paul - true
  • But how did the church KNOW Jesus chose Paul? - Because the existing apostles validated him

Without Peter, James, and John's validation, Paul would just be another guy claiming "Jesus appeared to me." The church would have had no way to distinguish him from:

  • Simon Magus (claimed to be "the power of God")
  • The Gnostics (claimed secret Jesus teachings)
  • Every other false teacher
 
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