Can God do evil?

[joestue]

Are you saying that resurrected or raptured believers come back to earth when Christ returns? What scripture passage says that?

whats clear in the text is that only those killed for their testimony of Christ are of the first to be resurrected. the terms john uses in revelation almost weirdly ignore the resurrection that already happened in matt 27:53.

if you can provide an alternate explanation i would be all ears.

because around 2014 i heard a person call into the coast to coast AM radio show and in a shaky kinda voice he said he had an authentic copy of a roman soldier's report from spain, of the dead coming out of the grave, at the time of 30 ish ad.

there has never been any question the romans controlled spain, aka tarshish, at that time. but someone witnessing people coming out of the grave in Spain, 500 miles or so from Jerusalem? solidifies in my mind that first resurrection was a global event. not local.

and weirdly, George noray i think was a closet christian. there was one show where i felt was going strangly wrong and only once in his entire radio history that i heard, did he ever ask the guest: "do you confess Jesus Christ came in the flesh".. and the guest had an almost schizophrenic response to that question and got cut off. he lost his damn mind.

 

[joestue]

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

this is exactly right.

Are you saying that resurrected or raptured believers come back to earth when Christ returns? What scripture passage says that?

there is a clear distinction between verse 4 and 5 in rev 20.

also note the souls under the alter crying out to God to avenge their physical death. and God says wait for your full number to come in, rev chap 6.

Under strange ways you could interpret revelation 20 to be a gross rapture of everyone who had been beheaded, plus those who had not worshiped the image, or worshiped the beast, or who had not received the mark, or their hand... but that is not usually how God describes judgements in the OT.

rather, the list is in the totality: those who did not: ALSO DID NOT DO { any of the following: ex yx gx, zh, etc. }

 

[joestue]

i have a weirdly catholic interpretation which i'm sure my wife will be interested in arguing about:

Rev 20:4 could be talking about anyone, raised from the "dead" as a "saint" but their time will be limited on this earth:
spiritually" for 1000 years.

so thus, there cannot be any catholic saints who remain in real influence for more than 1000 years., this would include Mary, and many others.

angels would be excluded, they have always been her, but they aren't saints, so its a separate issue.

 

[farmerjoe]

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Rev 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

Scripture shows that resurrected/raptured believers return with Christ when He comes, and that our eternal dwelling is not heaven, but the New Jerusalem, which comes out of heaven.

Believers return with Christ at His coming

1 Thess 3:13 — Jesus comes with all His saints

1 Thess 4:14 — God brings the dead in Christ with Him

Rev 19:14 — The armies in heaven (the saints, v. 8) follow Christ when He returns

Believers are resurrected/transformed at His coming

1 Thess 4:16–17

1 Cor 15:52

Believers reign with Christ

Rev 20:4–6 — They come to life and reign with Christ for 1,000 years

Rev 5:10 — They will reign on the earth (location stated here, not in Rev 20)

The New Jerusalem is not heaven

Rev 21:2 — The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven

Therefore it is distinct from heaven

God and the Lamb dwell in the New Jerusalem

Rev 21:3 — God’s dwelling is with men

Rev 21:22–23 — The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple and its light

Believers dwell there with Him forever

Rev 21:7 — The overcomer inherits these things

Rev 22:3–5 — His servants serve Him, see His face, and reign forever

Conclusion
Scripture never says believers spend eternity “in heaven.”
It says God brings the New Jerusalem out of heaven, and that He and the Lamb dwell there with resurrected humanity forever.

We may visit heaven for a while, but its not the final destination.

I see that a simple answer isn't possible for you. You've quoted about 25 scriptures. Do you use Strong's or Thayer's? How about this...

Saints...
b. of persons whose services God employs; as for example, apostles, Ephesians 3:5; angels, 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Matthew 25:31 [Rec.]; Revelation 14:10; Jude 1:14;

The "armies which are in heaven" are ANGELS! Not resurrected humans!

Same with Revelation 3:13. Saints are 'holy ones - AKA - Angels!

angels, 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Matthew 25:31 [Rec.]; Revelation 14:10; Jude 1:14;

Most pre-tribbers don't understand the Parousia.

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming/PAROUSIA of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.\par

What is the parousia?
The future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.\par

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up/Harpazo together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The Harpazo is the rapture or removal of believers. So, put it all together.

The passage is saying that the rapture/harpazo happens 'at the Parousia' which is when Jesus returns to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God. That can ONLY happen at the end of tribulation when Jesus returns to set up his kingdom.\par

 

[farmerjoe]

Rev. 6;9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should REST yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Why would they be crying out for God to, "judge and avenge their blood on them that dwell on the earth, "if they were already in heaven? This indicates the resurrection comes at a time of judgment and Gods vengeance. More important.

Why would God tell them to REST a little while longer UNTIL the rest of their fellowservants and brethren should also be killed? Why would they have to wait? They have to wait for the paradise to completely fill will all the righteous dead THEN comes the resurrection, the consummation of things, and the return of Christ.

Another thing to notice is THEY CRIED OUT WITH A LOUD VOICE!

WHY WOULD THEY DO SUCH A THING IN IF THEY'RE ALREADY IN HEAVEN? It's because they were confined in paradise petitioning God to take vengeance. As opposed to what Protestants teach...these martyrs are PRAYING to God!

God answers the prayers of the martyrs of Rev 6 in Rev. 8.

If the martyrs of Rev. 6 are under the altar, that means they are not in heaven but still under the blood of Christ, in paradise, resting, and waiting anxiously for Christ return and the resurrection. They are told to rest....which is what paradise is. A place of rest.

 

[farmerjoe]

The reason I've become Catholic is because of people like you. Especially diabolical Protestant pastors who condemn Catholics and think they know everything there is to know about - everything there is to know about.

When I tell Protestants of my homelessness they tell me they'll pray for me. The Catholics did something about it. I don't agree with everything Catholic. But at least they aren't offensive like many Protestants I've encountered.

Pre-trib is evil to the core. I hate it with a passion. It's the most deceitful teaching in Protestantism today.

 

[joestue]

WHY WOULD THEY DO SUCH A THING IN IF THEY'RE ALREADY IN HEAVEN? It's because they were confined in paradise petitioning God to take vengeance. As opposed to what Protestants teach...these martyrs are PRAYING to God!

to me its not super important that they are in paradise or heaven, the point is they are waiting for vengeance on their unrighteous death. they are not in some kind of eternal bliss forgetting their worldly troubles. so Jesus has not wiped all their tears away yet... they are also not innocent, having lived long enough to be killed for their testimony.
-so we're not talking about misscarriages, which i do believe can be reborn elsewhere.

also i got a notification you replied to me yesterday at 803 pm but i didn't see it.

also i mean no offence against the catholics. in my hometown, they teach a powerless gospel even weaker than the protestants

 

[B-A-C]

WHY WOULD THEY DO SUCH A THING IN IF THEY'RE ALREADY IN HEAVEN? It's because they were confined in paradise petitioning God to take vengeance. As opposed to what Protestants teach...these martyrs are PRAYING to God!

Rev. 6;9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Are these people already in heaven? Or even in Paradise/Abraham's bosom for that matter, lets look at the timing here.

Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

The people wearing white robes, came out of the great tribulation, which hasn't happened yet, so these people aren't anywhere yet.
No martyrs under the altar yet, no tribulation yet.

 

[farmerjoe]

Are these people already in heaven? Or even in Paradise/Abraham's bosom for that matter, lets look at the timing here.

Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

The people wearing white robes, came out of the great tribulation, which hasn't happened yet, so these people aren't anywhere yet.
No martyrs under the altar yet, no tribulation yet.

Bye - see all you fools later. BAN ME! I don't belong here amongst a bunch of Protestant idiots. What you ned is someone to spoon-feed to you how prophecy is written.

 

[Dave M]

Are these people already in heaven?

maybe but Jesus tells us that he will come back and get us, or someone anyways, I think he was speaking to his disciples at the time
John 14-3
“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also"

He has prepared a place, in his fathers house so I am thinking this has to be heaven, so when and how does one get there? do we die and go there that seems logical, because at the end of the age, when he returns we will be dwelling on earth, and when he returns he has his saints with him.

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ;and believe in Me as well
2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going

 

[MedicBravo]

1. It's not in his nature to do it Himself.
2. Allowing it is not evil.
3. Don't try to understand God's "plan" b/c if you try to hard you'll hurt yourself.

 

[B-A-C]

He has prepared a place, in his fathers house so I am thinking this has to be heaven

Maybe...
But could it be a city 1400 miles by 1400 miles, by 1400 miles? Lots of room in that city. (It isn't heaven).
Now, while I'm Ok, with us being there for a "little while". I don't think that's permanent.

Revelation 21:1–3"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

This is the clearest and most direct — the New Jerusalem comes down, and God's tabernacle is with men. Not men going up, but God coming down.

Revelation 21:10"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."

Reinforces the downward direction explicitly — descending.

Revelation 21:22–23"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

God and the Lamb are the temple — they are present within the city itself.

Zechariah 2:10–11 (Old Testament preview)"Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee..."

A clear prophecy of God dwelling among His people on earth — quoted and fulfilled in Revelation 21.

Ezekiel 37:27"My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Another OT promise directly echoed in Revelation 21:3, confirming continuity of the promise across both testaments.

The consistent picture is a downward movement — heaven coming to earth, not earth ascending to heaven. The eternal state isn't souls floating in a disembodied spiritual realm, but God literally tabernacling with redeemed humanity on a renewed creation.

So the question isn't whether we will be with Jesus forever, but rather where will Jesus be forever.
It isn't heaven.

Revelation 21:24"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."


Revelation 21:26-27"And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."


Revelation 22:3-5"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him. And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."


Revelation 22:14"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

 

[B-A-C]

Isaiah 45:7"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Things God does that look evil to human eyes:

Kills the Egyptian firstborns, including children with no say in Pharaoh's choices
Orders the Canaanite genocide — women, children, livestock, whole cities
Achan sins, but Israel's soldiers die — collective punishment for one man's theft
Job's children are killed as part of a test Job knew nothing about
Uzzah touches the Ark to steady it and dies instantly
Ananias and Sapphira struck dead for lying about a donation
Moses denied the Promised Land for one act of frustration after 40 years of faithfulness
The she-bears and 42 youths mauling — harsh by any human standard
Eternal hell — endless conscious torment of beings He created

Does the Bible say God did these things or not? If so, did God do evil, or is our perception of evil sometimes wrong.

Isaiah 53:10"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to far grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin..."
Genesis 6:17"And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."

1 Samuel 18:10"And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand."

And again in 1 Samuel 19:9"And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand."
=====================================

A whole category you could call "God-ordained civil penalties" that look brutal by modern standards.
God didn't do these things, but He commanded humans to do them.

Death penalty offenses God commanded in the Law:

Adultery — Leviticus 20:10
Homosexual acts — Leviticus 20:13
Cursing your parents — Exodus 21:17
Sabbath breaking — Numbers 15:32-36 (a man gathered sticks and was stoned)
Blasphemy — Leviticus 24:16
Worshiping other gods — Deuteronomy 17:12
A rebellious son — Deuteronomy 21:18-21
A bride found not to be a virgin — Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Witchcraft — Exodus 22:18

 

[KingJ]

I make errors and unless you are perfect so do you. Imperfection can not judge perfection.

Your argument confuses two different ideas of judgment.

1. Ultimate judgment (condemning God or placing ourselves above Him).
2. Moral evaluation or discernment (recognizing whether something is good).

If perfection were required in order to judge anything, then no human court could ever exist.

It is true that humans cannot sit in ultimate judgment over God, as if we were morally superior to Him. But that is not the same as saying we cannot recognize or evaluate goodness when we see it.

Scripture itself confirms that humans are capable of making such judgments. “The spiritual man judges all things” (1 Corinthians 2:15). God gave us reason, conscience, and moral awareness specifically so that we can discern good from evil.

More importantly, God repeatedly invites people to evaluate Him. Scripture says, “Taste and see that the Lord is good” (Psalm 34:8). That is an invitation to examine His character and recognize His goodness.

 

[KingJ]

no, that's something you made up completely.

Not made up.

Fact 1. Revelations 20:3 is crystal clear that the devil is released at the end of the millennium to test mankind for the last time.

Fact 2. All on earth at the coming of Jesus after the Tribulation, have been tested. God dropped plagues on the wicked and the saints rejected the mark of the beast.

Fact 3. God is impartial Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11. Meaning, if God placed the devil with Adam and Eve, you and I, He will give all the same opportunity to choose good over evil.

Fact 4. All Jews under twenty were spared from the wrath of God Num 14:29-31.

When you take all four facts, you arrive at a very sound and logical purpose for the millennium. Namely that it be the time that God brings back to earth all children and babies under twenty. It is also reasonable to expect all mentally handicapped also return.

and, they would be coming back as infants born of someone anyways, since God doesn't teleport full grown persons to this planet. everyone gets here the same way, even Jesus on his first time.

They are all in heaven. No need for them to be re-birthed, no.

the combination of prophecies is pretty clear from a clear reading of the time line, those who were murdered for their testimony of Jesus are the only people "coming back" when Jesus returns. and they will not die again, but will live the entire 1000 years+ in their new bodies, of which the old ones are still in the ground.

Tribulation saints will reign with Jesus for a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them… and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Reigning with Jesus as we no longer need to be tested. Children will not reign with Jesus. They will grow up and live a typical human life and only once they pass a test with satan at the end, will they qualify to also reign with Jesus.

the rest of both the Christians and the non Christians have to wait for their resurrection till after the 1000 years.

Incorrect. Scriptures on the dead sleeping are mostly completely and utterly misread by a few false teachers who push ''annihilationism''.

The wicked are temporarily housed in Hades. The righteous, reign with Jesus.

the resurrection of the OT saints has already happened in Matt 27:53.

Correct. Jesus cleared Abrahams bosom / paradise in Hades.

-satan makes fun of it with our endless zombie apocalypse movies and memes. so its possible they will return as well for the 1000 years, but i'm not sure its required, or would they want to.

I do expect them to return, yes. We in agreement on this at least .

 

[KingJ]

The Harpazo is the rapture or removal of believers. So, put it all together.

The passage is saying that the rapture/harpazo happens 'at the Parousia' which is when Jesus returns to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God. That can ONLY happen at the end of tribulation when Jesus returns to set up his kingdom.\par

The rapture is a separate event to the second coming of Jesus that you are referencing. As touched on in the OP here - Pre-trib Rapture only, anything else incriminates God

Please can you guys take this chat on the rapture and tribulation saints to another thread. Thanks in advance .

@farmerjoe, @B-A-C, @joestue

 

[NBTT]

If perfection were required in order to judge anything, then no human court could ever exist.

My statement was about us judging God. The topic of the thread/poll. Start another thread for this different topic.

More importantly, God repeatedly invites people to evaluate Him. Scripture says, “Taste and see that the Lord is good” (Psalm 34:8). That is an invitation to examine His character and recognize His goodness.

That is an invitation to judge yourself as you correctly concluded. Him being good is a foregone conclusion.

God (includes Jesus) is without sin. The whole concept of judging Him who is good is meaningless. Imagine a world of absolute zero. What would a thermometer do in that world? All it could do is verify that it reads zero K (i.e judge itself).

Imperfection can not judge perfection.

 

[KingJ]

My statement was about us judging God. The topic of the thread/poll. Start another thread for this different topic.

I brought that up because your principle was universal, “imperfection cannot judge perfection.” If that principle were true in any meaningful sense, it would invalidate all human evaluation, not just evaluation of God.

That is an invitation to judge yourself as you correctly concluded. Him being good is a foregone conclusion.

God (includes Jesus) is without sin. The whole concept of judging Him who is good is meaningless. Imagine a world of absolute zero. What would a thermometer do in that world? All it could do is verify that it reads zero K (i.e judge itself).

Imperfection can not judge perfection.

Psalm 34:8 cannot mean “judge yourself.” The verse literally says, “Taste and see that the Lord is good.” The object of the evaluation is the Lord’s goodness, not the observer. The command invites people to experience and recognize that goodness. Recognition is a form of judgment not condemnation, but discernment.

Your thermometer example assumes God is completely beyond us and unknowable. But Scripture shows He reveals Himself through creation, history, and His actions. If we can’t recognize what He has revealed, the invitation to ‘taste and see that the Lord is good’ becomes meaningless.”

-----------------

Logical weaknesses in your argument​

1. Category error (judgment vs condemnation)

You treat all “judging” as if it means condemning or sitting above someone. But judgment also means discernment or recognition. Scripture itself uses judgment this way (1 Cor 2:15). By collapsing the two meanings, you argue against a position I didn’t take.

2. Your analogy assumes the conclusion

Your thermometer example assumes that God’s goodness is already a foregone conclusion that cannot be examined. But that’s exactly the point under debate. An analogy that assumes the conclusion does not prove it.

3. You ignore divine revelation

Biblically, God reveals Himself through actions (creation, judgment, mercy, covenant, Christ). Humans do not judge an abstract constant; they respond to what God has shown about Himself. Ignoring that removes the very basis on which Scripture invites people to recognize God’s goodness.

4. You contradict Psalm 34:8

Psalm 34:8 explicitly tells people to “taste and see that the Lord is good.” If humans cannot evaluate that goodness in any sense, the invitation itself becomes meaningless.

 

[joestue]

No martyrs under the altar yet, no tribulation yet.

unless the tribulation being spoken of is the entire life of the church, i'm not going to argue this point just throwing it out there.

When you take all four facts, you arrive at a very sound and logical purpose for the millennium. Namely that it be the time that God brings back to earth all children and babies under twenty. It is also reasonable to expect all mentally handicapped also return.

also something you've made up completely. it feels good but that's about it.


also, your spamming hundreds of replies to people every two days strikes me as extremely disingenuous. .

 

[Bill]

I want to make the argument that God cannot do what is evil.

Scriptures like these:

• Psalm 145:17 — “The Lord is righteous in all His ways.”
• Psalm 136:1 — “God is good and His mercy endures forever.”
• 1 John 1:5 — “God is light; in Him is no darkness at all.”
• Job 34:12 — “Unthinkable that He be unjust, surely God will not do wickedly.”

are didactic texts about God’s character that serve as interpretive controls across all topics. God’s revealed character functions as a limiting factor, not in the sense of an external constraint, but as an expression of metaphysical impossibility: His nature (good, righteous, light) is ontologically fixed. Therefore, any interpretation that portrays Him as morally evil is invalid.

May Jesus feel us with his love and wisdom
It would be impossible for God to do evil.
It states in the scripture that God is love. It also States that were Love is Evil cannot be.

This is why the proponents of predestination are invalid. Free Will would be the only conclusion