So you follow Jesus in its entirety which means it includes Matthew Mark Luke and John
So are you under the law or not?
Jesus said to keep the law
Jesus told Paul we arent under the law, but grace
Which one do you follow?
PAUL WOULDN'T GO AND BAPTIZE ALL NATIONS
- Thread starter DougE
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So are you under the law or not?
Jesus said to keep the law
Jesus told Paul we arent under the law, but grace
Which one do you follow?
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Both, or you didn't understand Jesus, or Paul for that matter who received it from Jesus.
With the Love of Jesus.
Moderator
\o/
No need to pursue this just saying you cant be under the law and not under the law at the same time. In this case you cant follow Christ according to his earthly ministry to Israel and according to Paul simultaneously.
Follow Christ as you wish
Think there is just one church as you wish
Anything I can say is futile
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Not what I was saying, and you know it. So, for you it can't be both law, and grace, can it?
Through Christ Jesus, you’ve been freed from the consequences of the Law. Without Him, God’s grace is truly absent from your life, and the Law still holds its full power over you. It doesn't absolve you from the need to be Holy and Obedient. (Added)
Yes, anything you say against that is futile.
My own personal observation is this: Sadly, what you are doing, is cutting pieces of a book to make another book/story to go by; all the while stating because the 1st part does not have what is in the 2nd book/story, you come up with a different conclusion for each one. If you had kept it as a whole, you would see there is no problem, and it flows gently and accurately in the telling.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
So you are freed from the consequence of law breaking, but still have to keep it.
Do you eat pork?
Do you keep the sabbath?
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Instead of working toward common ground in understanding the different aspects of the law, which you know are there, you focus on picking apart what I said, even though it presents the truth. For some reason, you can’t accept that, and rather than coming together in understanding, you choose to further divide and cloud the truth of what was said. Unacceptable. (Titus 3:10-11 NKJV)
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
I simply want to understand what you are saying. How do you keep the law
Do you keep the law?
Do you eat pork or not?
Do you keep the sabbath?
These arent ceremonial aspects of the law, they are fundamental
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Whether I do or don’t doesn’t change what I said in my earlier post about Law & Grace. Saying it again doesn’t change what I told you in my last post either.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
backNforth
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The first believers got it slightly wrong - water baptism is a trick, a test, built into the gospel.
Worldwide, churches of all shapes and sizes teach people to be baptized in water. It's hard to get two of them to agree on exactly how it's supposed to be done,
whether you baptize in the name of Jesus, or in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost;
whether you sprinkle or pour water on people, or dunk them in the water;
whether it's done in a pool inside a church, or in a river;
who does it;
what the person doing it needs to believe in order for it to be valid;
whether you tip the person backward, or forward, when putting them under the water;
how old the person needs to be before you can baptize them;
what to do if the person backslides after being baptized;
whether the Holy Spirit comes into a person before, during, or after the water baptism...
The list goes on and on. There have been more divisions in the church over water baptism than over any other teaching in the Holy Bible or out of it.
Paul is the first person to have seen through this confusion to the truth behind it.
People were arguing over who had baptized them. Paul had baptized only a small handful of people, but soon realized that Jesus never meant for us to baptize people in water:
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chl-oe that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (1 Cor. 1:11-17).
Here's another oft-missed clue:
And [Jesus] said unto [his disciples], Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized [in the Spirit, NOT water baptized] shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned [IOW, belief results in spiritual baptism unto salvation; unbelief results in damnation (water baptism is irrelevant)]...And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word [NOT with water baptisms] with signs following. Amen. (Mark 16:15-16, 20).
The understanding of baptism has been messed up and distorted from antiquity. The result has been not unlike the parable of the sower, where two different seeds were sown but only one produced fruit. And such rituals of men are easy to fake. There is something far more satisfying than being dunked in water. God says that he wants obedience more than sacrifice (1 Sam. 15:22).
Water baptism was a Jewish ritual, a Hebrew practice. There is nothing uniquely Christian about water baptism. The disciples did baptize in water, but Jesus did not do it (John 4:2). Water baptism is inconsistent with the Spirit of everything else that Jesus taught. Most of Jesus' enemies were circumcised; most were baptized!
...I [John] indeed baptize you [the multitude] with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire (Luke 3:16).
What of Jesus' baptism? John protested:
But John forbade [Jesus], saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? (Mat. 3:14).
Jesus was the perfect spotless Lamb of God; he didn't need his sins washed away. Rather, Jesus asked John to accommodate him, because it made sense for them "to fulfill all righteousness". So John went ahead and baptized Jesus. The end of the old, and the start of the new.
So what does "to fulfill all righteousness" mean?
Well, Jesus was born into a Jewish family; circumcised at 8 days of age; taken to the temple at 12 years of age; raised in all the disciplines of the Jewish religion. And now he does this one final Jewish ritual, marking the end of his Jewishness and the start of a deeper revelation.
Jesus came to replace, fulfill, render useless, the law of Moses:
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it (Luke 16:16). Out with the old, in with the new.
There is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism via the Holy Ghost!
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...(1 Cor. 12:13).
I get this one a lot:
Context is everything. Here is the passage:
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat. 28:18-20).
What are the action words in that passage (v. 19)?
There are only two action words = go and preach. When the disciples obey the commands to go and to preach, then the result is that people get baptized and taught. The disciples are NOT told to baptize anyone. Rather, baptizing is what takes place EVERY TIME someone receives the truth of what they preach.
So baptism is never a one-off. Baptizing happens to someone EVERY TIME he receives the truth.
actions of men = go and preach;
results of Holy Spirit = taught and baptized
* preaching the gospel = baptizing *
Also, in that cited passage above (Mat. 28:19), it is WE who make yet another ASSUMPTION; we "just add water" i.e. we ASSUME that the "baptism" spoken of is of water!!!
Another assumption was that speaking in tongues was of the Holy Spirit whereas the reality is that the teachings of Jesus are of the Holy Spirit.
Other false assumptions: Torah worship; Moses worship; Paul worship.
* truth (teachings of Jesus) vs. false assumptions (e.g. water baptism) *
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh [e.g. water baptism and other traditions of men] profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life (John 6:63).
What Jesus taught is his true Holy Spirit. You cannot know the Holy Spirit of Jesus without having the words he spoke. People know Jesus' name and ancestry, but they don't know his teachings or beliefs. So they do not and cannot have his Spirit. But if I preach, I am covering/baptizing/immersing you in his Spirit. People receive the Holy Spirit every time they believe something Jesus said.
The Holy Spirit is not visible, as water or tongues is. Jesus told Nicodemus: the wind blows wherever; you hear it but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it's going. You can't put the wind (or the Spirit) in a box (or a font).
I thank God that I have been released from the karmic "rinse and repeat" cycle of the Jewish ritual of water baptism.
Change what you said?
Never mind
I don't fully understand your stance on the law since you didnt answer me, but here is how I view the law
[Galatians 5:4 KJV] "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." ******** Fallen from grace isn't losing salvation, it's reverting back to law keeping
[Galatians 5:14 KJV] "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." ********* we fulfill the righteousness of the law by walking in the Spirit and by love
Paul in his epistles restates the ten commandments except the sabbath
PAUL REFLECTS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
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You almost have it there! It's not about following the law but believing that somehow you are justified (works/following the law) by doing so which is the problem that exists in many who wrestle with this and hit their heads against the wall of Law & Grace and are unable to reconcile them. The Law is good and one must know that it should not be seen in any other light then that because after all we received it from God. However, in our fallen state no one but Jesus could adhere to it without failing and why Jesus came/was sent to do what we could not. It's Jesus that justifies by His righteousness, and not the following of the law by us.
We fulfill the righteousness of the law by walking in the Spirit and by love in Christ Jesus. After all is not Jesus the personification of that very love? So, adding "in Christ Jesus." to the end of your statement would have my full agreement. \o/
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
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You'll see my answer in the previous post.
Very good
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