Is it Okay to Condemn Sinners?

[Rad]

Its quite funny that in my post I said you were dancing and then in your reply, you further dance..



Answer the above post. Until you do, discussion with you is circular.

It's like trying to discuss semi - complex mathematical equations with someone who cannot yet accept that 1 + 1 = 2.

And until you accept that you may ask questions in whatever form you choose but those you ask the questions to may answer in whatever form they choose then you havent really grasped the concept of a discussion forum.

And did you check the OP, you do understand that this discussion is not about Homosexuality being a sin but is about the condemnation of sin in general.

 

[Rad]

I think it is clear as day if we have plenty, we are required to share it, if we have more than enough to make us comfortable. That is clear as day. And God does not separate one sin worse than another. Sin is sin.

Hi Hannah, welcome to the forums, if you havent already figured it out for yourself, which you probably have, youll understand that "KingJ" ,along with some others on this forum have a pretty unique way of communicating, its just something you get used to.

I would just say in reply to your post that i think we are called on to do more than just share if we are comfortable, i think Christs commandment to "deny ourselves and take up our Cross daily" is a call to self sacrifice and denial in all aspects of our lives, i dont believe that we can be "comfortable" in this world and still profess, to be a follower of Christ in a world where hundreds of millions live in abject poverty and 16,000 young children die from hunger and disease every day, Christs call to love your neighbour as yourself and treat others as youd want to be treated negates any notion of "comfort" that we may like to install in our lives. Its not easy to live a life of self denial and sacrifice in the name of love, i struggle with it every day, but if our professed faith is to mean anything, then as in Matthew 25 vs31-46, The Sheep and the goats, it must encompass the Love and Compassion we show to those in need.

 

[Rad]

Where did Christ ever say that the mere possession of riches condemns a person to hell? (The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher)

Did you not read my reply in #73, OK heres the relevant parts again,
"Again lets see what Christ actually said in Luke 16 and not your interpretation of it, so heres the text " Luke 16: 19-31 "
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."... So why was the rich man condemned to Hell, the answer is in verse 25 " But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.", he was condemned for being Rich, for living a wealthy. comfortable life, and Lazarus was saved for living a life of suffering and poverty, or again as Christ said in luke 6:20 "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the Kingdom of Heaven" and Luke 6:24 "Woe to you that are rich for you have received your consolation",

and then we have
"Lets just see what Christ said about the rich young ruler shall we, not your interpretation of it, Ok Matthew 19:16-30 "
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what good deed should I do to have eternal life?”
17 Jesus asked him, “Why ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you want to get into that life, you must keep the commandments.”18 The young man asked him, “Which ones?”Jesus said, “‘You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not give false testimony,19 honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘you must love your neighbor as yourself.
20 The young man told him, “I have kept all of these What do I still lack?”21 Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the destitute, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come back and follow me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement he went away sad, because he had many possessions.23 Then Jesus told his disciples, “I tell all of you with certainty, it will be hard for a rich person to get into the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into the kingdom of God.” Christ is not talking of "idols", his statement is clear and reiterated in the other Gospels, "It is easier for a CAMEL TO PASS THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE THAN A RICH MAN ENTER HEAVEN" The warning is to the Rich, as already stated, the very fact of storing up treasure on Earth means your Heart is with your treasure and not God, YOU CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MONEY."

And in Luke 1 53, the Magnificat, Mary says, "He hath filled the hungry with good things, but the rich he has sent empty away", i've already quoted Luke 6:24 " Woe to you who are Rich for you have received your consolation" and the story of Zacchaeus fits into Christs teaching in that Salvation was only pronounced AFTER HE HAD GIVEN AWAY HIS WEALTH.

Is it really so hard to see that their is an incompatibility in Christs teachings of Wealth and Faith and that storing up Treasure in heaven is equated with giving away your wealth on Earth, for you cannot serve two masters, YOU CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MONEY. Matthew 6: 19-24 and you cannot profess "to love your neighbour as yourself" and "treat others as you'd want to be treated" while you live in wealth and comfort and they suffer and die in Poverty and Oppression.

 

[KingJ]

And until you accept that you may ask questions in whatever form you choose but those you ask the questions to may answer in whatever form they choose then you havent really grasped the concept of a discussion forum.

And did you check the OP, you do understand that this discussion is not about Homosexuality being a sin but is about the condemnation of sin in general.

Rad, of course you're free to answer however you choose. Equally, I'm free to point out when you haven't answered the question that was asked.

The reason I asked those questions is because they establish foundational points that directly affect the discussion. If we cannot agree on whether God inspired Leviticus 20:13, whether God changes His mind, whether Jesus taught degrees of sin, or whether God is impartial and just, then we have no common foundation from which to discuss the condemnation of sin.

Until those are answered, we're not moving forward; we're just moving sideways.

-----------------------

In addition, if you continue making serious doctrinal claims without supporting them from Scripture, I may report the matter to the admin.

You were specifically asked to support your statement in post #78. If you are going to make claims, then the burden is on you to provide biblical support for them. This is a Christian discussion forum and you are in a bible study section.

 

[KingJ]

Did you not read my reply in #73, OK heres the relevant parts again,
"Again lets see what Christ actually said in Luke 16 and not your interpretation of it, so heres the text " Luke 16: 19-31 "
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."... So why was the rich man condemned to Hell, the answer is in verse 25 " But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.", he was condemned for being Rich, for living a wealthy. comfortable life, and Lazarus was saved for living a life of suffering and poverty, or again as Christ said in luke 6:20 "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the Kingdom of Heaven" and Luke 6:24 "Woe to you that are rich for you have received your consolation",

and then we have
"Lets just see what Christ said about the rich young ruler shall we, not your interpretation of it, Ok Matthew 19:16-30 "
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what good deed should I do to have eternal life?”
17 Jesus asked him, “Why ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you want to get into that life, you must keep the commandments.”18 The young man asked him, “Which ones?”Jesus said, “‘You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not give false testimony,19 honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘you must love your neighbor as yourself.
20 The young man told him, “I have kept all of these What do I still lack?”21 Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the destitute, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come back and follow me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement he went away sad, because he had many possessions.23 Then Jesus told his disciples, “I tell all of you with certainty, it will be hard for a rich person to get into the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into the kingdom of God.” Christ is not talking of "idols", his statement is clear and reiterated in the other Gospels, "It is easier for a CAMEL TO PASS THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE THAN A RICH MAN ENTER HEAVEN" The warning is to the Rich, as already stated, the very fact of storing up treasure on Earth means your Heart is with your treasure and not God, YOU CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MONEY."

And in Luke 1 53, the Magnificat, Mary says, "He hath filled the hungry with good things, but the rich he has sent empty away", i've already quoted Luke 6:24 " Woe to you who are Rich for you have received your consolation" and the story of Zacchaeus fits into Christs teaching in that Salvation was only pronounced AFTER HE HAD GIVEN AWAY HIS WEALTH.

Is it really so hard to see that their is an incompatibility in Christs teachings of Wealth and Faith and that storing up Treasure in heaven is equated with giving away your wealth on Earth, for you cannot serve two masters, YOU CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MONEY. Matthew 6: 19-24 and you cannot profess "to love your neighbour as yourself" and "treat others as you'd want to be treated" while you live in wealth and comfort and they suffer and die in Poverty and Oppression.

Rad, you've quoted several passages warning about the dangers of wealth, but you still haven't answered the question I asked.

Your claim was not that wealth is spiritually dangerous, nor that some rich people trust in riches, nor that wealth can become an idol.

Your claim was: "The mere possession of riches condemns the possessor to hell."

Where does Christ say that?

Not where does Christ warn the rich.

Not where does Christ say riches can be a stumbling block.

Not where does Christ say you cannot serve God and money.

Where does Christ say that the mere possession of wealth is sufficient to damn a person?

Because if your interpretation is correct, then Abraham, Job, David, Joseph of Arimathea, and others must all be condemned simply for being wealthy.

The rich young ruler was not condemned because he possessed wealth. He was exposed because he loved his wealth more than Christ.

Likewise, the rich man in Luke 16 is never said to be in hell merely because he was rich. The passage presents a man who lived in luxury while showing no compassion to the suffering man at his gate.

You're reading "rich people can be condemned" as "all rich people are condemned."

So once again, can you provide a verse where Christ says that merely possessing riches condemns a person to hell?