Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[KingJ]

KingJ, let's keep this focused on the text of Scripture​

I am not asking you to accept my conclusion merely because I assert it, nor am I claiming that Scripture contains the exact English phrase “justified before faith.” My argument is that the doctrine must be determined by comparing the whole testimony of Scripture, as Scripture itself requires.

The issue between us is ultimately what Christ actually accomplished for those whom He represented at the cross.

Consider the texts together.

Romans 5:9 says:


Paul explicitly identifies Christ's blood with justification. The blood is not merely the possibility or provision of justification; Paul says we are justified by His blood.

Then Isaiah 53:11 says of the suffering Servant:


Notice the connection Paul and Isaiah give us: the Servant bears their iniquities, and by doing so He justifies many.

Romans 5:19 gives the same representative contrast:


Adam's disobedience actually resulted in many being made sinners; Christ's obedience actually results in many being made righteous. Paul is not describing a merely hypothetical righteousness that Christ makes available while waiting for another party to complete the transaction.

Then Romans 4:25 says Christ:


His death dealt with the offenses, and His resurrection stands as God's testimony to the justifying efficacy and acceptance of His finished work.

And 2 Corinthians 5:21 gives us the substitutionary exchange:


Christ was made sin for us, so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

This is why I continue to distinguish between the legal phase and the vital and practical phases of salvation.

The elect are not born regenerated or believing. They are born with a fallen nature and, in themselves, are sinners. But that does not mean Christ's legal work concerning them was incomplete until they exercised faith.

Their legal righteousness is in Christ because He bore their sins and fulfilled all righteousness on their behalf. Later, in God's appointed time, the Spirit regenerates them and brings them to faith, repentance, and the conscious knowledge and enjoyment of that salvation.

That is why I do not regard faith as completing Christ's cross-work. Faith is the gracious means by which the justified sinner comes to know, believe, and enjoy the peace and salvation Christ has already secured.

This also explains Romans 5:1:


I understand “justified by faith” as describing the believer's coming into the conscious possession and experience of that justification—not faith making Christ's finished work legally effective for the first time.

So when you say that an elect sinner could be “condemned and under God's wrath” five minutes before believing, I believe that creates the very problem we need to resolve.

If Christ has actually borne that person's sins, if His blood actually justifies, if He has actually made that person righteous by His obedience, and if God is no longer imputing the trespasses of those reconciled to Him, what legal basis remains for God to continue charging that same person's sins against him when those sins have already been borne and satisfied in his Substitute?

That is the question I want you to answer from Scripture.

I am not questioning your sincerity, nor am I claiming to know your ultimate spiritual condition. God knows His own, and God is able to grant repentance to those presently caught in error (2 Tim. 2:25).

But I do believe the doctrine itself must be tested by Scripture.

So let's leave personalities aside and return to the texts:

Was Christ's death merely a provision that awaits man's action before it becomes legally effective, or did Christ actually accomplish the justification of those whose sins He bore?

I believe Isaiah 53, Romans 4–5, and 2 Corinthians 5 give the answer.

If you believe I have misunderstood them, then show me from Scripture where the argument fails.

BF, you absolutely do need to produce a verse. Here's why:

You are not defending a doctrine that is plainly stated in Scripture. You are proposing a specific doctrinal claim: that a person is legally justified before they believe and while they are still an unbeliever.

That is not my claim. It is yours.

If I claimed that people are justified ten years after faith or justified before Christ died you would rightly demand a verse. Why? Because the person making the positive doctrinal assertion bears the burden of proving it from Scripture.

You cannot simply say "the total testimony of Scripture" when the very point under debate is whether your conclusion is actually taught by Scripture.

Scripture repeatedly says we are justified by fait​

Not a chain of inferences.

Not a theological deduction.

Not an interpretation that requires five other doctrines to be true first.

An actual passage teaching that a person is legally justified before believing.

Until you can produce that passage your doctrine remains an inference not a biblical teaching. ​

​

An inference that portrays God as monstrously evil. 10/10 evil.​

---------------------

Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.

Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

 

[KingJ]

KingJ, let's keep this focused on the text of Scripture​

I am not asking you to accept my conclusion merely because I assert it, nor am I claiming that Scripture contains the exact English phrase “justified before faith.” My argument is that the doctrine must be determined by comparing the whole testimony of Scripture, as Scripture itself requires.

The issue between us is ultimately what Christ actually accomplished for those whom He represented at the cross.

Consider the texts together.

Romans 5:9 says:


Paul explicitly identifies Christ's blood with justification. The blood is not merely the possibility or provision of justification; Paul says we are justified by His blood.

Then Isaiah 53:11 says of the suffering Servant:


Notice the connection Paul and Isaiah give us: the Servant bears their iniquities, and by doing so He justifies many.

Romans 5:19 gives the same representative contrast:


Adam's disobedience actually resulted in many being made sinners; Christ's obedience actually results in many being made righteous. Paul is not describing a merely hypothetical righteousness that Christ makes available while waiting for another party to complete the transaction.

Then Romans 4:25 says Christ:


His death dealt with the offenses, and His resurrection stands as God's testimony to the justifying efficacy and acceptance of His finished work.

And 2 Corinthians 5:21 gives us the substitutionary exchange:


Christ was made sin for us, so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

This is why I continue to distinguish between the legal phase and the vital and practical phases of salvation.

The elect are not born regenerated or believing. They are born with a fallen nature and, in themselves, are sinners. But that does not mean Christ's legal work concerning them was incomplete until they exercised faith.

Their legal righteousness is in Christ because He bore their sins and fulfilled all righteousness on their behalf. Later, in God's appointed time, the Spirit regenerates them and brings them to faith, repentance, and the conscious knowledge and enjoyment of that salvation.

That is why I do not regard faith as completing Christ's cross-work. Faith is the gracious means by which the justified sinner comes to know, believe, and enjoy the peace and salvation Christ has already secured.

This also explains Romans 5:1:


I understand “justified by faith” as describing the believer's coming into the conscious possession and experience of that justification—not faith making Christ's finished work legally effective for the first time.

So when you say that an elect sinner could be “condemned and under God's wrath” five minutes before believing, I believe that creates the very problem we need to resolve.

If Christ has actually borne that person's sins, if His blood actually justifies, if He has actually made that person righteous by His obedience, and if God is no longer imputing the trespasses of those reconciled to Him, what legal basis remains for God to continue charging that same person's sins against him when those sins have already been borne and satisfied in his Substitute?

That is the question I want you to answer from Scripture.

I am not questioning your sincerity, nor am I claiming to know your ultimate spiritual condition. God knows His own, and God is able to grant repentance to those presently caught in error (2 Tim. 2:25).

But I do believe the doctrine itself must be tested by Scripture.

So let's leave personalities aside and return to the texts:

Was Christ's death merely a provision that awaits man's action before it becomes legally effective, or did Christ actually accomplish the justification of those whose sins He bore?

I believe Isaiah 53, Romans 4–5, and 2 Corinthians 5 give the answer.

If you believe I have misunderstood them, then show me from Scripture where the argument fails.

I will not be feeding this low-IQ circular nonsense any further. I will only be responding to you in the Calvinism debunked thread.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF, you absolutely do need to produce a verse. Here's why:

You are not defending a doctrine that is plainly stated in Scripture. You are proposing a specific doctrinal claim: that a person is legally justified before they believe and while they are still an unbeliever.

That is not my claim. It is yours.

If I claimed that people are justified ten years after faith or justified before Christ died you would rightly demand a verse. Why? Because the person making the positive doctrinal assertion bears the burden of proving it from Scripture.

You cannot simply say "the total testimony of Scripture" when the very point under debate is whether your conclusion is actually taught by Scripture.

Scripture repeatedly says we are justified by fait​

Not a chain of inferences.

Not a theological deduction.

Not an interpretation that requires five other doctrines to be true first.

An actual passage teaching that a person is legally justified before believing.

Until you can produce that passage your doctrine remains an inference not a biblical teaching. ​

​

An inference that portrays God as monstrously evil. 10/10 evil.​

---------------------

Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.

Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

Faith Apprehends Justification — It Does Not Create It​

Romans 4:5 says:

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Notice carefully what Paul says.

The object of faith is “him that justifieth the ungodly.” The believer is not trusting in his faith as a righteousness, nor believing that his act of believing caused God to justify him. He is believing in God as the One who justifies the ungodly.

Paul also says “to him that worketh not.” Faith is certainly an act or exercise of the regenerated person, but it is not a meritorious work that supplies the righteousness by which he is justified. The righteousness counted to him is Christ's righteousness, not the righteousness of his believing.

Thus:

Faith does not create the legal verdict; faith believes the God who justifies.
Faith does not supply the righteousness; faith apprehends the righteousness God imputes.
Faith does not make Christ's blood efficacious; faith rests upon the efficacy of Christ's blood.

This is why Romans 4:5 should not be reduced to the idea that God waits for an ungodly sinner to believe before He can justify him. Paul expressly describes the person whom God justifies as “the ungodly.”

And this agrees with the broader testimony of Scripture.

Romans 5:9:

“Being now justified by his blood...”

Romans 5:19:

“By the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Isaiah 53:11:

“By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”

Romans 4:25:

Christ “was raised again for our justification.”

2 Corinthians 5:21:

Christ was “made sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

The legal ground of justification is therefore Christ's obedience, righteousness, substitutionary death, and blood—not man's believing.

Faith belongs to the subsequent work of God's grace in the sinner. The Holy Spirit regenerates the elect, gives them faith, and brings them to consciously believe and enjoy what Christ has accomplished for them.

So when the believer believes, he is not saying:

“My faith caused God to justify me.”

He is saying, in effect:

“I believe in the God who justifies the ungodly, and I rest upon the righteousness and blood of Christ by which He has justified me.”

Faith is therefore the God-given apprehension of justification, not the cause or creator of justification. Rom 4:5 teaches Justification before Faith ! Dont dismiss it for your human reasoning, dont elevate reason over revelation !