Debunking Calvinism

[joestue]

Thats seems what your trying to do ey?.

Not my fault you don't know the Word lol

Mock who for the lack of intelligence..? Or are you just throwing slander around?

so far to the best attempts i can read, all your posts in this thread, have been supporting kingJ over Bright flame.

 

[joestue]

As for you @joestue what do you need defined you cant understand the Word Himself?
Or you offended of the Word

Smh

the very definition of Jesus forgiving one person or another, is favoritism.

so yes God does show favoritism: to the repentant!

 

[Twistie]

so far to the best attempts i can read, all your posts in this thread, have been supporting kingJ over Bright flame.

I'm for the Truth i do not bend
Everything i been taught has been by the Lord man has taught me nothing only thing man showed me was Love is just lies covering the Truth to make people feel comfortable

There is a worldly love and truth then there is the Lord Truth and Love they are not the same

 

[joestue]

I'm for the Truth i do not bend
Everything i been taught has been by the Lord man has taught me nothing only thing man showed me was Love is just lies covering the Truth to make people feel comfortable

There is a worldly love and truth then there is the Lord Truth and Love they are not the same

but you don't even confirm if you are in agreement (granted, mostly) with one or the other person?

why waste your time posting all this stuff if you're not actually saying much of anything?

also lets break this down in to human readable speach:
"Everything i been taught has been by the Lord" (quite the claim, did he teach you english?)

"man has taught me nothing only thing man showed me was Love is just lies covering the Truth to make people feel comfortable"

man, you need some help

everything man showed you was love is just lies covering the truth to make people feel comfortable?

 

[KingJ]

you are the one mocking

it is not a calvanist position to say that Jesus alone was given all power and authority under heaven {to forgive sin}

Once again you have taken the time to make a post yet you still cannot provide Scripture or a direct rebuttal to the Scripture I actually provided.

Instead you change the subject as though you either did not read my point or simply did not understand it.

If you disagree with what I said then deal with the passages I gave you directly. Show from Scripture where I am wrong. Simply giving your opinion or changing the subject does not constitute a rebuttal.

 

[joestue]

Once again, you take the effort to make a post but yet are unable to provide scripture or a direct rebuttal of scripture I provided.

And, you change the topic like you did not read or grasp the point made.

its pretty simple.

"all power and authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me..."

you then say, man can save himself from hell by turning to God but its up to Jesus to forgive his sins. (i'm sure im paraphrasing)

well.. no.

Jesus.. is king. not man turning to God.

 

[Twistie]

the very definition of Jesus forgiving one person or another, is favoritism.

so yes God does show favoritism: to the repentant!

Umm no its not may forgive people but i know longer associate with them called boundaries called protecting my peace and my heart..

They are in no way shape or form a favorite of mine lol

 

[Twistie]

but you don't even confirm if you are in agreement (granted, mostly) with one or the other person?

why waste your time posting all this stuff if you're not actually saying much of anything?

also lets break this down in to human readable speach:
"Everything i been taught has been by the Lord" (quite the claim, did he teach you english?)

"man has taught me nothing only thing man showed me was Love is just lies covering the Truth to make people feel comfortable"

man, you need some help

everything man showed you was love is just lies covering the truth to make people feel comfortable?

I speak Truth the Only one im in agreement with is the Lord..

If i seeked to please man i surely wouldn't be following the Lord lol id still be robbing and drugging if i wanted to really please man frfr

 

[joestue]

Umm no its not may forgive people but i know longer associate with them called boundaries called protecting my peace and my heart..

They are in no way shape or form a favorite of mine lol

if you're a christian you should be forgiving everyone that sinned against you so that their condemnation may be made less.

I scared the living daylights out of a woman when i told her i was interested in reconciling with a certain person, who she said "is evil"

she remains afraid of me to this day 7 years later. her husband says she is afraid of everyone and everything. i emailed her church, they did nothing.

I speak Truth the Only one im in agreement with is the Lord..

If i seeked to please man i surely wouldn't be following the Lord lol id still be robbing and drugging if i wanted to really please man frfr

still be robbing and drugging?

is this a freudian slip?

 

[Twistie]

if you're a christian you should be forgiving everyone that sinned against you so that their condemnation may be made less.

I scared the living daylights out of a woman when i told her i was interested in reconciling with a certain person.

she remains afraid of me to this day 7 years later. her husband says she is afraid of everyone and everything. i emailed her church, they did nothing.


still be robbing and drugging?

is this a freudian slip?

Nope that was just me..

What i did but not what i am now...

Lord is good and Merciful..

 

[Twistie]

you're a christian you should be forgiving everyone that sinned against you so that their condemnation may be made less.

I scared the living daylights out of a woman when i told her i was interested in reconciling with a certain person, who she said "is evil"

she remains afraid of me to this day 7 years later. her husband says she is afraid of everyone and everything. i emailed her church, they did nothing.


still be robbing and drugging?

is this a freudian slip?

Idk Hubby was my bestie for like six yrs Lord sent him to me in some of my darkest hours..

We was spaghetti eating buddies

Im not a Christian.. are you mocking me ?

 

[joestue]

Im not a Christian.. are you mocking me ?

It seem to me at this point you have no interest in conversation, or even attempting to understand what was said.

Umm no its not may forgive people but i know longer associate with them called boundaries called protecting my peace and my heart..

They are in no way shape or form a favorite of mine lol

There is no single phrase of English in this part of your reply that shows to me any interest in forgiveness. You acted to protect yourself. that's why we have nations with armies.... and at the end of the day, its all wrong.

when we let God set our boundaries, you don't have to defend yourself.

 

[Twistie]

It seem to me at this point you have no interest in conversation, or even attempting to understand what was said.


There is no single phrase of English in this part of your reply that shows to me any interest in forgiveness. You acted to protect yourself. that's why we have nations with armies.... and at the end of the day, its all wrong.

when we let God set our boundaries, you don't have to defend yourself.

Then apparently you havent read the past replies..
#107

 

[Brightfame52]

Shall be saved by His Life !

This promise is made of all for whom Christ died and reconciled to God by His death while they were enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This scripture guarantees that these enemies Christ died for shall be saved by His Life ! They have been already reconciled to God, yet further blessing is promised. That they shall be saved by His[Christ] Life means that they shall be saved from being Gods enemy experientially, and that they shall believe the Truth, which is another aspect of salvation. We read of this here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

In other words its an aspect of Salvation, a Saving, to be sanctified by the Spirit unto belief of the Truth. So in essence, those enemies in Rom 5:10 who were reconciled to God by Christ's death, its promised of them that they shall be saved by Christ's Life unto belief of the Truth. Christ's Life is His Spirit being given to them He substituted for as their Surety, thats why He is as the second or last adam made a life giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening[life giving] spirit. That is His Life referred to in Rom 5:10 that they shall be saved by !

And so we know this is not true of all mankind without exception, hence Christ did not die for all mankind without exception , unless we come to embrace the heresy of universalism and make the false claim that all mankind without exception shall be saved by Christs Life

 

[KingJ]

KingJ,

You say that Romans 6:7 describes only the believer's identification with Christ and therefore does not establish justification before faith. But that response does not address the legal language Paul actually uses or the representative death underlying the passage.

The question is not whether Romans 6 describes believers. Of course it does. The question is:

What is the legal significance of their death with Christ?

1. Romans 6:7 Uses the Language of Justification​

Paul writes:


The verb translated “freed” is dikaioō, the same word regularly used for justification or judicial acquittal.

The point is that death ends sin's legal claim over the person who has died.

Paul's argument throughout the chapter is grounded in union with Christ:


The believer's death with Christ is therefore not merely an illustration. It is central to Paul's argument concerning the believer's release from sin.

2. Christ's Death Was Representative​

Paul also says:


Your position seems to recognize that Christ died for His people, yet you separate His death from their actual legal release until a later act of faith.

But Paul connects Christ's representative death with the death of those He represented.

Likewise:


The ground of justification is Christ's blood, not the sinner's faith. Faith does not make Christ's blood effective or complete an unfinished atonement. It receives and manifests the benefit of what Christ accomplished.

3. Faith Does Not Complete the Atonement​

This is where I believe your order creates a serious problem.

If Christ bore the sins of His people and fully satisfied divine justice for those sins, what remained unpaid until they believed?

Faith cannot be the payment.

Faith cannot add efficacy to Christ's blood.

Faith cannot make a debt satisfied that Christ's death failed to satisfy.

Paul says:


And:


The issue, therefore, is not whether the elect consciously enjoy justification before faith. They plainly do not. The issue is whether Christ's death actually accomplished the legal ground and discharge of their sins before they came to faith.

I maintain that it did.

4. You Are Confusing the Accomplishment of Salvation With Its Application​

Romans 6 certainly describes those who are consciously united to Christ as believers.

But that does not prove that Christ's death accomplished nothing for them until the moment they believed.

The cross accomplished redemption.

The Spirit gives life in time.

Faith receives Christ and brings the believer into the conscious enjoyment of the salvation accomplished for him.

Those are not the same question.

A person may not yet know or enjoy what Christ accomplished for him, but his ignorance does not make Christ's work incomplete.

The Bottom Line​

You keep asking me for a verse stating, in those exact words, that “the elect were justified before faith.” But Scripture often teaches doctrine through the combined force of its propositions.

The argument is straightforward:

1. Those united with Christ died with Him.
2. Death brings release or justification from sin in Paul's argument (Romans 6:7).
3. Christ died representatively for those He represented (2 Corinthians 5:14).
4. Justification is grounded in His blood (Romans 5:9).
5. Faith does not pay the debt, complete the atonement, or make Christ's sacrifice effective.

So my question remains:

If Christ fully bore the sins of His people and satisfied God's justice for those sins at the cross, what legal liability remained for them to pay or have removed when they later believed?

Faith does not make Christ's work effective.

Faith receives, by the work of the Spirit, the salvation Christ actually accomplished for His people.

BF you keep proving things I have never disputed while avoiding the point I actually made.

1. Romans 6:7
“Freed from sin” does not say justified before faith. You are adding that conclusion.

2. Christ's representative death
Christ dying for our sins establishes the ground of salvation. It does not prove that those He died for were already justified before believing.

3. Faith does not pay for sin
Agreed. But nobody said it does. The question is when the sinner is justified.

4. Accomplishment vs application
You simply assert that legal justification happened at the cross and faith merely reveals it. Scripture does not say that.

Scripture says:

“Being justified by faith.” — Romans 5:1

“All that believe are justified.” — Acts 13:39

So once again you have given me your theological reasoning instead of the Scripture I asked for.

Show me one Scripture that explicitly says a person is justified before faith.

 

[KingJ]

Shall be saved by His Life !

This promise is made of all for whom Christ died and reconciled to God by His death while they were enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This scripture guarantees that these enemies Christ died for shall be saved by His Life ! They have been already reconciled to God, yet further blessing is promised. That they shall be saved by His[Christ] Life means that they shall be saved from being Gods enemy experientially, and that they shall believe the Truth, which is another aspect of salvation. We read of this here 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

In other words its an aspect of Salvation, a Saving, to be sanctified by the Spirit unto belief of the Truth. So in essence, those enemies in Rom 5:10 who were reconciled to God by Christ's death, its promised of them that they shall be saved by Christ's Life unto belief of the Truth. Christ's Life is His Spirit being given to them He substituted for as their Surety, thats why He is as the second or last adam made a life giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening[life giving] spirit. That is His Life referred to in Rom 5:10 that they shall be saved by !

And so we know this is not true of all mankind without exception, hence Christ did not die for all mankind without exception , unless we come to embrace the heresy of universalism and make the false claim that all mankind without exception shall be saved by Christs Life

Using my thread to preach your nonsense because your other thread got banned XD.

-------------

You are again turning an inference into a conclusion.

Romans 5:10 does not say that every enemy Christ died for was already reconciled in the sense of already justified or saved.

“Shall be saved by his life” actually points to a future salvation. You are then inserting your own interpretation that this means Christ will regenerate and bring only the elect to faith.

And 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not prove your interpretation of Romans 5:10. It simply says salvation is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

You cannot use your interpretation of one passage to prove your interpretation of another.

Once again you have built a Calvinist chain of inference and presented it as though Scripture explicitly states it.

---------------------

Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.

Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

 

[KingJ]

Hi. Is the problem here the English word "justified"?

Because Genesis 1:1 (using Hebrew language methods like Notarikon to expound on its own letters...) reads: "The Son of God, crowned upon His head, is destroyed by His own hand willingly on the cross."
Plus Genesis 1:27-30 where in the order of things, God revealed to His creations His plans well before He set Adam & Eve in Eden.
and Genesis 3:15, knowing full well that no woman, let alone Mary cannot produce her own Seed, but The Word put Him there to fulfill the work of His Creation.
All the way to, let's say Colossians 1:20 through/and 28-29.

God made us to enjoy discipline (trials/talents: our personal and collective life) before this planet was ready for us. The Way already existed for future generations. I suppose in that sense humanity is "justified" before, during, and after Jesus Christ's Atoning Sacrifice.

And to use bluntness; God's promise only works if we do obey His commandments, which is our part of the deal. No card, no entry.

That being said, I don't know much of Calvin, Luther, Graham, etcetera... but it seems The Word is clear that Christ's Work is finished from past to future, and we have a responsibility to each other to keep it. (?)

I think you are touching on an important distinction but I don't think the issue is simply the English word “justified.”

I completely agree that Christ's work was planned by God from before creation and that His atoning work is completely finished. Nothing I am arguing takes anything away from the finished work of Christ.

The issue is when Scripture says the individual sinner is justified.

Christ's sacrifice is the ground of our justification. That does not automatically mean that every person Christ died for was already personally justified before they believed.

That is the point I am challenging BF on.

Scripture says:

“Being justified by faith” — Romans 5:1

“All that believe are justified” — Acts 13:39

So when BF says that people were already legally justified before faith he needs to show where Scripture actually says that.

I also agree that Christians have a responsibility to obey God. But I would not say obedience is “our part of the deal” in the sense that we must maintain our salvation through obedience. I believe in OSAS — once saved always saved.

I would distinguish between Christ completing the work of salvation and the individual receiving that salvation through faith.

So I don't dispute that God's plan existed before creation or that Christ's work reaches from God's eternal purpose into the future.

I simply don't think that proves the specific Calvinist claim that an unbeliever is already justified before faith.

 

[KingJ]

the very definition of Jesus forgiving one person or another, is favoritism.

so yes God does show favoritism: to the repentant!

Joe you are confusing favoritism with conditional forgiveness.

God forgiving the repentant does not mean God is showing favoritism. Scripture says “there is no respect of persons with God” (Romans 2:11).

God offers forgiveness to those who repent. That is not favoritism. It is righteousness and mercy.

You are redefining “favoritism” to mean simply treating people according to their response to God.

 

[KingJ]

@Christ4Ever Hi. Would it be possible to temporarily prevent @Brightfame52 and @joestue from posting in this thread until they address post #71 directly?

Joestue appears to be trying to derail the thread by starting arguments that could result in it being closed. BF is also using this thread as another platform to promote his Calvinistic teachings after his other thread was closed.

If they are not prepared to directly address the questions and Scripture already presented in post #71 and instead continue dancing around the issues then I don't think they should be allowed to keep posting here.

I would simply like them to address post #71 directly before the discussion with them moves any further. I don't think that is unreasonable. It would demonstrate honesty and a genuine desire to search for the truth rather than simply continuing to avoid the questions.

 

[joestue]

Let's try another approach, please answer the below with a simple 'Yes' or 'No'.

The central issues​

1. Can you produce one passage that explicitly says a person is justified before they have faith? No
2. Does Romans 5:1 say “being justified by faith”? Irrelevant. those with faith are justified (past tense).
3. Does Acts 13:39 say “all that believe are justified”? Yes
4. Does Galatians 3:8 say that God would justify the heathen through faith? no
5. Does Romans 4:5 actually say that God justifies the ungodly before they believe? no
6. Does Romans 4:5 specifically mention the person who “believeth on him” and say that his faith is counted for righteousness? Yes
7. Does Scripture explicitly say that regeneration must occur before faith? -its probably not that simple.
8. Does Scripture explicitly say that God withholds the ability to believe from those He has not elected? not that simple.
9. Does the fact that God gives faith automatically prove Calvinistic regeneration-before-faith? Jesus rebukes many asking them where is their faith.

Your election argument​

1. Does Romans 9 explicitly say that Jacob was individually chosen for eternal salvation and Esau individually chosen for eternal damnation? no
2. Does Romans 9 explicitly say that God created some individuals for eternal damnation? no. (its a hypothetical what if God creating vessels for damnation)
3. Does Matthew 20:15 explicitly teach unconditional individual election to salvation? no, its a parable about poor managment of resources.
4. Does Romans 9 itself say that God's election there concerns the purpose of God according to election? possibly irrelavant question. you need to memorize the entire book of romans to under stand pauls opinions.

God's impartiality​

1. Does Scripture say that God is no respecter of persons? correct
2. Does God judge the heart? Yes
3. Does Scripture command people to repent? Yes
4. Does God genuinely call people to repentance? Yes
5. Does the fact that God gives faith mean that a person's response to God's grace cannot be genuine? no
6. Does God's sovereignty mean that His goodness righteousness and impartiality can simply be ignored? irrelavant, who is going to ignore it?

The OT salvation issue​

1. Did people in the OT who trusted God and repented escape torment and enter paradise? they are not tormented until the judgement.
2. Was their ultimate salvation and reconciliation with God dependent upon Christ's sacrifice? Yes, but there seems some in the OT who Jesus was covering their sin prior. (
3. Did these OT believers need to be “regenerated” before they could believe? no. but belief and being born again are two separate things. the jews almost rejected the book of ezekiel, it was too strange to them. the christian speaks of the inward change of their heart as regeneration

The Great Commission and baptism​

1. Does Matthew 28:19 command the apostles to teach all nations and baptize them? yes
2. Does Matthew 28:19 say that this command is postponed until the millennium? No
3. Were Gentiles baptized in Acts 10? Yes -but note how long it took peter to figure it out.
4. Did Peter command Cornelius and the Gentiles to be baptized? Yes
5. Does Galatians 2:9 say that Peter was to go only to Jews and Paul only to Gentiles? no, its just what happened at the time
6. Does Galatians 2:9 explicitly say that the Great Commission was cancelled? why even ask this question. of course not.

​