Debunking Calvinism

[joestue]

Then apparently you havent read the past replies..
#107

i read it quite well. you set boundries, you did not forgive.

 

[joestue]

Christ's sacrifice is the ground of our justification. That does not automatically mean that every person Christ died for was already personally justified before they believed.

That is the point I am challenging BF on.

Scripture says:

“Being justified by faith” — Romans 5:1

“All that believe are justified” — Acts 13:39

So when BF says that people were already legally justified before faith he needs to show where Scripture actually says that.

its right there in romans 5!

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

NOTE: however the "IF"

paul is speaking hypothetically. (or is he?) (and where did the hypotheticals start? at verse 9?)

 

[Twistie]

i read it quite well. you set boundries, you did not forgive.

Alrighty lol

 

[KingJ]

its right there in romans 5!

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

NOTE: however the "IF"

paul is speaking hypothetically. (or is he?) (and where did the hypotheticals start? at verse 9?)

Joe I understand what you are pointing to in Romans 5. But I think there is an important distinction here.

Romans 5:9 clearly says Christ's blood is the basis or ground of our justification. I do not dispute that.

What it does not say is that every individual was already personally justified before they believed.

Paul actually says:

“Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.” — Romans 5:1

I am not disputing that Christ's death accomplished everything necessary for our justification. I am questioning the claim that individuals were therefore already legally justified before faith.

As for the “if” in verse 10 I do not see how that establishes justification before faith. Paul is making an argument from reconciliation to future salvation. It does not state that a person was already justified before believing.

So my question remains simple:

Where does Romans 5 actually say that a person is personally justified before faith?

 

[joestue]

Where does Romans 5 actually say that a person is personally justified before faith?

but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood

(i am not saying i actually believe this)

but that's what reading romans in english does for you. my wife came to the conclusion a good bit of it is translated wrong, with english "periods" in the middle of prepositional phrases in some places. -its a far too complicated topic to even discuss unfortunately.

 

[KingJ]

but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood

(i am not saying i actually believe this)

but that's what reading romans in english does for you. my wife came to the conclusion a good bit of it is translated wrong, with english "periods" in the middle of prepositional phrases in some places. -its a far too complicated topic to even discuss unfortunately.

Joe I understand what you are saying. But I think the Greek actually makes the distinction clearer.

Romans 5:9 uses dikaiōthentes — “having been justified” — followed by “by his blood.” The Greek identifies Christ's blood as the basis or means of justification. It does not say that individuals were personally justified at Calvary before faith.

Then Romans 5:1 uses the same verb dikaiōthentes with ek pisteōs — “having been justified by faith.”

So the Greek does not require a pre-faith justification. The claim that individuals were already legally justified before faith still requires an argument beyond Romans 5:9.

I am not disputing that Christ's blood is the ground of our justification. I am questioning the timing.

Christ's blood is the ground of justification. Romans 5:1 explicitly connects our justification with faith.

So my question remains:

Where does Scripture clearly say that an individual is personally justified before faith?

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Christ4Ever Hi. Would it be possible to temporarily prevent @Brightfame52 and @joestue from posting in this thread until they address post #71 directly?

Dear Brother KingJ,
I've done as you have asked, but it will be for 7 days only, because I can't tell if they'll ever address post #71 as you desire. (shrug)
So, after a grace period of the aforementioned days, they'll once again have access to the thread, to reply as they will. Everyone has an option to reply as they want to, and I have no authority in making anyone doing anything they don't want to do. I would suggest, that if they don't answer your questions, that you attribute it to individuals that believe what they believe, and do not care about having a conversation with someone in which they must consider an opposing view.

So, consider it just a temporary stay.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[KingJ]

Dear Brother KingJ,
I've done as you have asked, but it will be for 7 days only, because I can't tell if they'll ever address post #71 as you desire. (shrug)
So, after a grace period of the aforementioned days, they'll once again have access to the thread, to reply as they will. Everyone has an option to reply as they want to, and I have no authority in making anyone doing anything they don't want to do. I would suggest, that if they don't answer your questions, that you attribute it to individuals that believe what they believe, and do not care about having a conversation with someone in which they must consider an opposing view.

So, consider it just a temporary stay.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

Thanks, appreciated. I just want them to engage in conversation, not troll the thread.

 

[Gothedral]

I am just gonna jump into the debate and copypasta my response to @KingJ because it should have also included you, @Brightfame52 ...

Hi. Is the problem here the English word "justified"?

Because Genesis 1:1 (using Hebrew language methods like Notarikon to expound on its own letters...) reads: "The Son of God, crowned upon His head, is destroyed by His own hand willingly on the cross."

Take your time with their weirdness.

Plus Genesis 1:27-30 where in the order of things, God revealed to His creations His plans well before He set Adam & Eve in Eden. God made us to enjoy discipline (trials/talents: our personal and collective life) before this planet was ready for us.

So far so good?

and Genesis 3:15, knowing full well that no woman, let alone Mary cannot produce her own Seed, but The Word put Him there to fulfill the work of His Creation.
All the way to, let's say Colossians 1:20 through/and 28-29.

Eh, read your copy.

So... Jesus Christ The Way already existed for future generations. I suppose in that sense humanity is "justified" before, during, and after Jesus Christ's Atoning Sacrifice.

And to use bluntness; God's promise only works if we do obey His commandments, which is our part of the deal. No card, no entry.

That being said, I don't know much of Calvin, Luther, Graham, etcetera... but it seems The Word is clear that Christ's Work is finished from past to future, and we have a responsibility to each other to keep it. (?)

Does my viewpoint make sense?
Because I don't get what either of you are arguing about right meow.

 

[KingJ]

I am just gonna jump into the debate and copypasta my response to @KingJ because it should have also included you, @Brightfame52 ...


Take your time with their weirdness.


So far so good?


Eh, read your copy.


Does my viewpoint make sense?
Because I don't get what either of you are arguing about right meow.

Gothedral yes I think I understand what you are saying and there are several things I agree with. But there are also a couple of important distinctions that explain what I am arguing about.

1. Genesis 1:1 and the Notarikon interpretation

I agree that God's plan for Christ and redemption existed before creation. But I would be very careful about using Notarikon as though Genesis 1:1 explicitly says that Christ would die on the cross.

That is a Hebrew interpretive method rather than the straightforward meaning of Genesis 1:1. I would rather establish Christ from passages that actually reveal Him through Scripture.

For example Genesis 3:15 is much more relevant because Scripture itself develops the promised Seed theme through the Bible.

2. Christ existed in God's plan before His earthly ministry

Absolutely.

Christ's work was not God's reaction to something that happened unexpectedly. God's plan for redemption existed beforehand.

But that does not mean that every individual was therefore already personally justified before they believed.

There is a difference between:

Christ's work being accomplished in God's plan

and

an individual being justified and receiving salvation through faith.

That distinction is the heart of my disagreement with BF.

3. “Humanity is justified before during and after the Atoning Sacrifice”

This is where I would change the wording.

I would say Christ's sacrifice was planned beforehand and accomplished at the cross. But I would not say that humanity was therefore already justified before the cross.

Scripture says:

“Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.” — Romans 5:1

And:

“All that believe are justified from all things.” — Acts 13:39

So Christ's sacrifice is the basis for justification but Scripture still connects our justification with faith.

4. “God's promise only works if we obey His commandments”

I would make an important distinction here.

I absolutely agree that God expects us to obey Him. Scripture repeatedly commands obedience.

But I would not describe obedience as our part of the deal for keeping salvation.

I believe salvation is by grace through faith and that Christ's finished work is sufficient. I also believe in eternal security.

So obedience is the responsibility of someone who has been saved. It is not what keeps Christ's sacrifice effective for us.

5. “No card no entry”

This is actually where I would disagree with you.

The issue is not that Christ's work is incomplete until we obey enough commandments.

Christ said “It is finished.”

Our response is faith.

Faith does not pay for our sins. Christ paid for our sins.

Faith is how we receive what Christ accomplished.

6. So what are KingJ and BF actually arguing about?

This is the important part.

I am saying:

Christ's sacrifice completely accomplished the work necessary for our salvation.

BF is going further and saying:

Because Christ accomplished that work at Calvary the elect were already legally justified before they ever believed.

That second statement is what I am challenging.

I keep asking for the Scripture that explicitly teaches that an individual is already personally justified before faith.

Romans 5:9 says we are justified by His blood.

Romans 5:1 says we are justified by faith.

Those statements are not contradictory.

Christ's blood is the basis of justification.

Faith is how the individual receives it.

So yes Gothedral I think your basic point makes sense. The part I would change is saying that humanity was already “justified” before Christ's sacrifice or that obedience is what makes God's promise work.

In summary:

The plan was established beforehand.
The sacrifice was accomplished at the cross.
Justification is received through faith.
And obedience follows as the responsibility of the believer.

 

[Gothedral]

TLDR WARNING! SKIP TO THE END! You too, @KingJ .I have problems and I don't want to waste anyone's time.

1) @Brightfame52 , @joestue ... ttyl bros?

0) @KingJ I had to read and re-read your responses to my posts here, because I have problems. And if my drain bamage says anything about my struggle to stay on target, I sincerely hope thou shalt be patient with me. I just wanna walk (LONG POST) two miles barefoot on Holy ground with you on this subject of:

"Debunking Calvinism: Justifications from an OSAS perspective". (Unholy cow I hope no one publishes that book title hahaha)
I digress: And I thank Holy God Almighty that mortal judgement never undoes the LORD's judgment. We can be our worst critics.

Gothedral yes I think I understand what you are saying and there are several things I agree with. But there are also a couple of important distinctions that explain what I am arguing about.
1. Genesis 1:1 and the Notarikon interpretation
[...]. I would rather establish Christ from passages that actually reveal Him through Scripture.

The book was written in the Semitic languages. And if you want to ignore how that revelation of Christ through Scripture works because that's not how modern English works, that's between you and GOD.

For example Genesis 3:15 is much more relevant because Scripture itself develops the promised Seed theme through the Bible.

Um you just did the thing you said not to do. Never mind. Anyway! So, in Genesis 1:27-30...

2. Christ existed in God's plan before His earthly ministry
Absolutely. Christ's work was not God's reaction to something that happened unexpectedly. God's plan for redemption existed beforehand.
But that does not mean that every individual was therefore already personally justified before they believed.
There is a difference between: Christ's work being accomplished in God's plan
and an individual being justified and receiving salvation through faith.
That distinction is the heart of my disagreement with BF.

I copy/pasted this from the interwebs, so it's :
The English word (justify) comes via the Old French (justifier) from the above Latin verb "justificare".
This verb is a compound of two words: justus: Meaning "just, right, or equitable.", and facere: Meaning "to make or do."
This subtle etymological difference between:
the Greek concept ("declaring" someone righteous)
and the Latin concept ("making" someone righteous)
actually became one of the central theological debates of the Protestant Reformation centuries later.

So we agree that this is the heart of your disagreement with BF. The word thing.
But God is not a god of confusion. We'll get back to this point.

3. “Humanity is justified before, during, and after the Atoning Sacrifice”
This is where I would change the wording.
I would say Christ's sacrifice was planned beforehand and accomplished at the cross.

That's why I used the Semitic languages of the Old Testament to expound on Genesis chapter 1.
Especially because it reveals the synagogue of Satan today. They lie like the Serpent to Eve.
Anyway, we're still in agreement...

But I would not say that humanity was therefore already justified before the cross.
Scripture says: “Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.” — Romans 5:1
And: “All that believe are justified from all things.” — Acts 13:39
So Christ's sacrifice is the basis for justification but Scripture still connects our justification with faith.

Skipping the rules of language: the Basis plus Scripture equals The Word is God. - Saint John 1:1-5
No conflict there. We're together.
(And to the weirdo thinking Christians worship a book rather than the Living Word, you should fast first. What God says, Happens.)

4. “God's promise only works if we obey His commandments”
[...] But I would not describe obedience as our part of the deal for keeping salvation.

But curses and Hell are factual consequences of disobedience... Don't argue with The Redeemer, just preach repentance and salvation.

I believe salvation is by grace through faith and that Christ's finished work is sufficient. I also believe in eternal security.
So obedience is the responsibility of someone who has been saved. It is not what keeps Christ's sacrifice effective for us.

Jesus Christ the Redeemer says in Saint Matthew chapter 7:
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is probably the part that I know of that, fact-checking against itself, I don't think we control our consequences to say "OSAS".

5. “No card no entry”
This is actually where I would disagree with you. The issue is not that Christ's work is incomplete until we obey enough commandments. Christ said “It is finished.”
Our response is faith. Faith does not pay for our sins. Christ paid for our sins. Faith is how we receive what Christ accomplished.

I never said Christ's work is incomplete like a common heretic! My saying "No card, no entry" is my lingo, yet not a lie.
Heaven and Hell. Wheat and tares. Repent or perish. Satanic or Christian. Obey or burn. Behavior is important. Jesus will forgive whom He will. I emphasize Matthew chapter 25. (Hmm... That could be another Thread.)
But who can be exemplary like Job or Enoch or Dismas in a faithful life nowadays? Jesus knows.

Don't get me wrong KJ. We still agree. Even if we use different words like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, etc Lol

6. So what are KingJ and BF actually arguing about?
This is the important part. I am saying: Christ's sacrifice completely accomplished the work necessary for our salvation.

BF is going further and saying: Because Christ accomplished that work at Calvary, the elect were already legally justified before they ever believed.
That second statement is what I am challenging.

(I'm trying to focus here...)
As far as your issue with "the elect were already legally justified before they ever believed"...
The elect. Yeah, the Devil had a nicer name and title before, too. He opted out like king Saul and king Solomon and apostle Judas. OSAS?
(I am trying to focus here...)
And despite God's pre-ordination for each of these creations, (Genesis 1:27-30) some people still choose otherwise. OSAS?
(I really am trying to focus here...)
And the disobedient were each replaced, and still are, and God's Heavenly decree is Everlasting. (So is Hell. Ew.)
The commandments aren't for nothing. Avoid iniquity.

I keep asking for the Scripture that explicitly teaches that an individual is already personally justified before faith.

To me, you keep answering your own question by using the capital letter S on "scripture", but I continue...

Romans 5:9 says we are justified by His blood. Romans 5:1 says we are justified by faith. Those statements are not contradictory.
Christ's blood is the basis of justification. Faith is how the individual receives it.

Every creation is justified by The Word creating us in the first place. Otherwise, what's the point of the follow through by having Adam & Eve multiply as planned? (Genesis 1:27-30). And The Word, giving them, coats of skins? 100% unicorn, that was not! Look at Abel's offering. Think, OSAS, think. Cain didn't, and he was taught by the best! We know the fate of such.
To think even Christ was tempted while down here. That The Word "became sin". Horrid. And Christ teaches what He knows.
Luke 16:19-31. OSAS right there. No boast.

So yes Gothedral I think your basic point makes sense.

yay

The part I would change is [...] saying that humanity was already “justified” before Christ's sacrifice

already covered that, OSAS ;-)

or that obedience is what makes God's promise work.

Disobedience is not okay! Wheat and tares. Curses and blessings. Eternal spirits require eternal consequences. God does not change, we do. And hopefully into new creatures that eschew whims to worship Him. (The Book of Job.)

️ => Skip to this part right here! <=

In summary:
The plan was established beforehand.
The sacrifice was accomplished at the cross.

The Atonement blessing has been active since before the world was. (Genesis. Or Gen. 1:1 as written in Hebrew.)
As we know from the New Testament (John 21:25. Including historical records and personal testimonies.)

Justification is received through faith.

Even in ancient Latin, Greek, English, and Aramaic the Epistle to the Romans concurs with The Alpha and the Omega from everlasting to everlasting as to where faith comes from. We all match Verses (fact-checking the Holy Bible against itself) as Jesus commands. Just because your tribe does not see every particle of the Truth, does not mean He is not Omnipresent. Hence websites and group Bible studies like this.
We still agree, clearly.

And obedience follows as the responsibility of the believer.

[COLOR=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.7)]Oh no faith without works by going about God the Father's work obediently - No boasting!
Isaiah 14:24 "The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying, [/COLOR][COLOR=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.7)]'Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, and as I have purposed, so it shall stand..." [/COLOR]

Gothedral
I keep asking for the Scripture that explicitly teaches that an individual is already personally justified before faith.

English: justified = weighed and measured. scales of justice.
Latin: justificare = justus + facere = just facilitated
Greek: dicaioo = declared righteous, acquitted
Gothedral: derp = God's Purposes (justification of action) were set before He made the Heavens and the Earth, and all humanity.

The Word of God already knew what Law must be fulfilled. And Jesus finished His part...He said so on the Cross.

But there's more things to act upon... so He is not really done in that context.
Was it finished in the spirit realms for three human days? Upon resurrection? After forty days and ascension to Heaven? The moment Jesus sat on His throne? When He cleanses Earth of the "Once Saved Then Changed Their Minds and Got Sent to Hell" people? When He brings shiny New Jerusalem back on Earth? When we get to Heaven?

Jesus said it - I believe Jesus - and I sincerely hope Jesus will heal us and this beautiful world.
I still think we're on the right track. No word salad.
Sorry. Thank you.