The Prevailing "Church System"

[SpiritLedEd]

Well said brother Ed.

We as individuals should be looking at and discerning the spirit of others as individuals not by their denomination.

But the problem I see is that many don't like to be seen as individuals and some won't even speak without placing their doctrines in front. So,either we talk doctrines or we don't talk at all.

I'm not complaining about the individuals ,nor am I judging them.(Thats a God Job) But it concerns me deeply especialy for those whom I know and love to see them get all tied up in a church system that is heading away from God.

Multitudes migrate from church to church to get the BBD.
(Bigger Better Deal) And the church system is in compitition with itself for the numbers.

I work with the construction industry. In a nearby town they are building ,right now, a church building that is so big that it could house every man, woman, child, and pet within the town.
Why?????? Because if they build it they will come from surounding towns and cities and that is good for the town economy.
What will happen is the towns people will abandon their small unimpressive churches for this bigger more impressive one. And the neighboring people will drive past many good bible based spirit filled churches just to be seen in this place. The neighborhood churches congregations of less than 3 or 5 hundred are being abandened. And with them individual fellowship and discernment.
It's like supermarket compitition with a cross on the door.
And there are more of them being built every day.
It's all becoming about the benifits ,comforts, programs, doctrines plans, charts and worst of all money.
Im not talking about people here ,I'm talking about a church system that has become a self serving institution that exsist off of the membership rather than for the membership.

Supermarket christianity, When the profit margine gets stable enough Walmart will put a chapel in. You watch and see
It's coming , a blue light special on baptisms, at a mega church near you.

While it's true God can save us no matter where we are ,we are still judged and save by God as individuals. I think that that is the one thing that the "Church system" doesn't want anyone to know. The truth that one can be as close or closer to God in their home ,in a small church, small group, or on their knees anywhere is bad for business.

Cliff S:

The people you are talking about are not the Ro 8:28 people I'm referring to. I'm referring to the people who are truly seeking a right relationship with God. They are turned off by the BBD (Bigger Better Deal), the glamorous new building, the "supermarket" Christianity. The people you refer to are, I believe, what my pastor calls "salad bar Christians" - Some of this, a little of that, "OOOH! That looks nice, I want that!", etc. etc.

My Ro 8:28 people are the seekers referred to in Hebrews 11:6 - "Wiithout faith it is impossible to please God. For whoevear would find God must first believe that He exists and that He rewards those who DILIGENTLY seek Him."


SLE

 

[Fellowservant]

Cliff S:
The people you are talking about are not the Ro 8:28 people I'm referring to. I'm referring to the people who are truly seeking a right relationship with God. They are turned off by the BBD (Bigger Better Deal), the glamorous new building, the "supermarket" Christianity. The people you refer to are, I believe, what my pastor calls "salad bar Christians" - Some of this, a little of that, "OOOH! That looks nice, I want that!", etc. etc.
My Ro 8:28 people are the seekers referred to in Hebrews 11:6 - "Wiithout faith it is impossible to please God. For whoevear would find God must first believe that He exists and that He rewards those who DILIGENTLY seek Him."
SLE

Yes good points from all sides, i would agree that most Churches, are upside down standing on the cross. But it has always been a problem, even in the body of Christ, as that is the real church. Just look at the letters to the seven churches of Asia, some were in bad shape, but told to repent.. and do the first works. If Christ was to return, he would whip the money changers out of the temple.

God bless all

 

[CliffS]

Yes fellowservant. Good points made by all. But as individuals what can or should we be doing with it or about it??? Anyone Got any opinions or thoughts????

 

[jiggyfly]

Follow after Christ, put Him at the center and don't allow anything or anyone to hinder that. Jesus said that if we love Him we will do what He says. If someone stops participating in the religious system because jiggyfly or anyone else says so they are still following man. It must be revealed by the Holy Spirit, and then He will lead them. The problem is for many the system or the man in the pulpit is mistaken as God, they don't know the Spirit's leading because they are bound. They can't experience the reality of John 8:36 *"So if the Son sets you free, you will indeed be free."

As far as fellowship goes, leave it in the Lord's hands. He knows what we have need of and He will bring the the right brothers and sisters into your life. We often say with our mouth that God is our provider but we don't wait for Him to provide. We run out ahead of Him and just grab the first thing we see. I believe that to most, "waiting on the Lord" is just a good recital of scripture and song, but many do not practice waiting on the Lord and so they do not experience the fullness of His blessing. It is a hard situation to find one's self in, but it is endurable.

True fellowship with other believers is important, but it should be a spiritual connection and should never take the place of our own fellowship with God and yet for many it does. Many believe because they attend a meeting with other professed christians that they are fellowshipping with God. I believe that many find security in the presence of the congregation instead of the presence of the Lord, and that is carnal. Because of this dependency many may leave for awhile but return in a short time. Just like any other dependency or addiction deliverance may take some time.

In my own life some are now baffled that I am still growing and maturing in the Lord and yet I can't even remember the last time I went to a religious institutional meeting. I stop participating several years ago and have enjoyed a more intimate relationship with the Lord than I could have imagine were possible while setting in a pew with eyes front.

 

[sunshine307]

Follow after Christ, put Him at the center and don't allow anything or anyone to hinder that. Jesus said that if we love Him we will do what He says. If someone stops participating in the religious system because jiggyfly or anyone else says so they are still following man. It must be revealed by the Holy Spirit, and then He will lead them. The problem is for many the system or the man in the pulpit is mistaken as God, they don't know the Spirit's leading because they are bound. They can't experience the reality of John 8:36 *"So if the Son sets you free, you will indeed be free."
As far as fellowship goes, leave it in the Lord's hands. He knows what we have need of and He will bring the the right brothers and sisters into your life. We often say with our mouth that God is our provider but we don't wait for Him to provide. We run out ahead of Him and just grab the first thing we see. I believe that to most, "waiting on the Lord" is just a good recital of scripture and song, but many do not practise waiting on the Lord and so they do not experience the fulness of His blessing. It is a hard situation to find one's self in, but it is endurable.

Very good advice brother jiggyfly. The most important thing is to listen to the voice of the Spirit. I personally have found waiting on the Lord is one of the hardest things to do - just waiting, not going and doing something else whilst waiting. I am learning though.

True fellowship with other believers is important, but it should be a spiritual connection and should never take the place of our own fellowship with God and yet for many it does. Many believe because they attend a meeting with other professed christians that they are fellowshipping with God. I believe that many find security in the presence of the congregation instead of the presence of the Lord, and that is carnal. Because of this dependency many may leave for awhile but return in a short time. Just like any other dependency or addiction deliverance may take some time.
In my own life some are now baffled that I am still growing and maturing in the Lord and yet I can't even remember the last time I went to a religious institutional meeting. I stop participating several years ago and have enjoyed a more intimate relationship with the Lord than I could have imagine were possible while setting in a pew with eyes front.

Yet again these things have proved true in my own life. For me my policy is no compromise where my relationship with Christ is concerned, and within the organised church I was having to compromise. Like yourself jiggyfly, people don't understand how I can grow. Most think I've backslidden, when the complete opposite is true. As has already been said, listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit, He will guide you.

 

[Coconut]

"Follow after Christ, put Him at the center and don't allow anything or anyone to hinder that." That is the ONE thing that is needful. If Christ is not the focal point of your daily walk, (and that includes walking into a 'church building') then either you have lost your way, or you were never following him to begin with. It is as simple as that.
To many christians 'so called' have thier eyes on themselves, living lives that are self-seeking, self -serving, and self preserving, when the only self that is worthy of our attention, is a daily self-examination, to be sure our hearts (our affections, our thoughts and our intents) remain steadfast centered on Christ.
I read a quote yesterday that said If you would follow Jesus, you have to keep your eyes on HIM. Amen

Psa 26:2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Dan 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Snowrose]

Hello Sunshine

When I read this section this morning - your quote above stirred up some thoughts. Quote: "The most important thing is to listen to the voice of the Spirit. I personally have found waiting on the Lord is one of the hardest things to do - just waiting, not going and doing something else whilst waiting. I am learning though."

Boy can I relate that – to hear that still small voice among all that noise. Worries, family, work…....to find that quite time or even amidst the commotion to be able hear our Lord’s voice. But I am slowly learning to “Be still and know that He is God”. (I emphasize slowly – I tend to learn things at a snail's pace.)

Other verses came flowing into me:

Proverbs 3: 6 – “in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.”

Isaiah 30: 21 – “Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, ‘This is the way; walk in it.’”

Matthew 6: 33 – “But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well.”

I know I worry too much and need to really redirect my thoughts to where the truth really lies. It is all about seeking Him first, acknowledging Him in praise and worship; ……I wish I had some spiritual blinders. To focus on Him and Him alone. Thank you, Sunshine. God bless you.

Love,
Snowrose.

 

[calluna]

but true growth in understanding and relationship comes when you get home, or in small groups.

I have been going to a small bible group study in someones home for the past several weeks. It has been the first one I have ever attended. I have grown in understanding, the study challenges us to think, we have good discussions, there is close fellowship and prayer. We sing praises. It is something I have not experienced before, but my response to this is ....this is it, this is what the body of Christ is all about.

Calluna

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I have been going to a small bible group study in someones home for the past several weeks. It has been the first one I have ever attended. I have grown in understanding, the study challenges us to think, we have good discussions, there is close fellowship and prayer. We sing praises. It is something I have not experienced before, but my response to this is ....this is it, this is what the body of Christ is all about.
Calluna

You've got it, Calluna! Small groups meeting regularly in peoples' homes are what church is all about. It's Acts 2 all over again, (specifically Acts 2:42-47).
I feel truly sorry for folks who think of any activity related to "church" as dull. Like you, its been my experience that small group Bible studies are anything but dull. They are spiritually enriching and just plain FUN!
SLE

 

[Chad]

friendtoall's account is closed for preaching mormonism. False doctrine not welcomed (other posts pruned to remove that kind of junk). Talk Jesus is 100% Truth, no exceptions

 

[Coconut]

What did new believers do before the religious institution was operating? The first three hundred years? How in heaven did God manage to redeem and disciple and grow believers without the aid of a man-made religious system? Mind boggling isn't it?

Now there`s a question for the sages of the ages. I`m no sage, but I love to share the answer His Spirit has already given


Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts!

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

All Glory to God!

 

[Coconut]

Iwould agree that most Churches, are upside down standing on the cross. But it has always been a problem, even in the body of Christ, as that is the real church. Just look at the letters to the seven churches of Asia, some were in bad shape, but told to repent.. and do the first works. If Christ was to return, he would whip the money changers out of the temple.

AGAIN. AMEN!

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[Blademan]

What is the result? Namely very little spiritual growth.

Very interesting post. Are you saying, then, that the resultant outcome is perpetual sheepdom, with the people rarely ever allowed to rise up and spiritually function in each other's lives in the corporate setting?

What do we say to those who like the religious exercises, therefore never having to become accountable to anyone else while they fade into the woodwork? After all, most tend to think that looking at the backs of other people's heads is fellowship. What does one say to them?

What do we say to those who hand over the primary portion of their giving to that religious organization, most of which absorb that giving into its own coffers for its expenditures and ambitions for growth, therefore robbing God by not using that portion for meeting the needs of fellow believers first and foremost?

Yes, the Lord can and does use institutions to His glory, through which He touches lives. He can also do that through a fellowship in the halls of your local mall, or in the city park.

Additionally, how do we come to grips with the fact that, for example, just because some dude landed a job as senior pastor, that such success doesn't automatically make him a TRUE (C)hurch leader of biblical stature and calibre?

We have many traditions for which we must give thought and account for before we can effectively grapple with the TRUTH in all that we do in our corporate gatherings and personal lives.

 

[HouseofJudah]

I think this is a great post and the replies have been very informative.

I found the following scriptures:

7 'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 "as I live," says the Lord God, "surely because My flock became a prey, and My flock became food for every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, nor did My shepherds search for My flock, but the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flock"-- 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the Lord! 10 Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand; I will cause them to cease feeding the sheep, and the shepherds shall feed themselves no more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouths, that they may no longer be food for them." 11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. 16 I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment." Ezekiel 34: 7-16


1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; F85 and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6.


I think one of the things that are a problem in church organizations is that it seems their goal is to fill the building with as many people as possible and once the building they spread their own doctrines and agendas that have to be funded by the congregation. Jesus in John 15 talks about bearing fruit, that is spiritual fruit. HE is saying that when people get saved it is not enough for them to just sit there, they have to bear fruit so that others who are not saved can come into the kingdom through the fruit. It's like a fruit tree, when it bears fruit others come to eat the fruit, the tree itself does not benefit from the fruit it bears. GOD is calling each and everyone of us to be a functioning part of the body not just a present part that is there but not doing anything.

I agree with someone who said in this thread that churches are like schools. But even in school, you have to graduate sometime, you cannot be in school all your life.

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. Heb 5:12.


Can you imagine what would happen if all the people in those mega-churches would go out and pray for the sick and needy? It's not where we go to fellowship that's the issue, it is our motive for going there. If we truly are seeking GOD, then wherever we are, church building or under a tree, GOD is faithful through HIS Holy Spirit to show up. And when HE has shown up mightily in your life, don't keep it to yourself, share it with others.

Remember that GOD's purpose for your life cannot be contained by any church building, city or country. So we need to adjust our mindsets accordingly and stop limiting ourselves to our experiences and what we have been taught by man.

 

[CrossBow]

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

Look for this ministry, for without it you will not see the full manifestation of the Body of Christ in the earth. This ministry exists even now and is being prepared by Jesus as an effectual door of utterence to bring His Body to perfection. Many who are called to this ministry are still in bondage to the denominational division of "born again" believers, but they will be "apprehended" from the various forms of religion to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

 

[Blademan]

Very interesting post. Are you saying, then, that the resultant outcome is perpetual sheepdom, with the people rarely ever allowed to rise up and spiritually function in each other's lives in the corporate setting?

What do we say to those who like the religious exercises, therefore never having to become accountable to anyone else while they fade into the woodwork? After all, most tend to think that looking at the backs of other people's heads is fellowship. What does one say to them?

What do we say to those who hand over the primary portion of their giving to that religious organization, most of which absorb that giving into its own coffers for its expenditures and ambitions for growth, therefore robbing God by not using that portion for meeting the needs of fellow believers first and foremost?

Yes, the Lord can and does use institutions to His glory, through which He touches lives. He can also do that through a fellowship in the halls of your local mall, or in the city park.

Additionally, how do we come to grips with the fact that, for example, just because some dude landed a job as senior pastor, that such success doesn't automatically make him a TRUE (C)hurch leader of biblical stature and calibre?

We have many traditions for which we must give thought and account for before we can effectively grapple with the TRUTH in all that we do in our corporate gatherings and personal lives.

Well, jiggyfly, may I have an answer to this, or did you not see it?

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Re: The Prevailing Church System

Blademan, why don't you PM Jiggyfly and ask him about this? You made your original post on February 19th, why did it take you nearly seven months to get around to following up on your request?

SLE

 

[jiggyfly]

I thought you were just making a point with your question. I apologize for the delay.

I say there is a difference in many cases between the schools of the christian religious system and the school of Christ. The christian religious system teaches you how to become clergy and operate within the system. The school of Christ teaches you to deny self, take up your cross and follow Jesus.

One is learned behavior the other is transformed character.

"We are quite certain that spiritual fulness is only possible by emancipation from the artificial and man-made system of procedure which obtains today, and a return to a simple but powerful basis of organic life kept pure by the direct government of the Holy Spirit, as it was at the first."

Editor's letter (march-April,1941) T.Austin Sparks

 

[laterunner]

Warning---

If a church/body/fellowship does not allow the owner/builder do

His job He will move on to find a more responsive group of

people.

 

[Blademan]

I thought you were just making a point with your question. I apologize for the delay.

I say there is a difference between in many cases between the schools of the christian religious system and the school of Christ. The christian religious system teaches you how to become clergy and operate within the system. The school of Christ teaches you to deny self, take up your cross and follow Jesus.

One is learned behavior the other is transformed character.

Hey, I like that.

Good point.