Yes, we are saved by grace, by faith alone, and the good works comes as a result of the faith, genuine faith, God gave you and me.

Spockrates said:

It seems to me that people like you and me are less likely to be deceived, since we admit such a possibility. But we also run the risk of doubting to the point of not believing anything. We should not be, as Paul cautioned:

...always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
(2 Timothy 3:8)

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Agreed,but I just have fun chomping data,it has nothing to do with my faith.
At some point results matter at some point there should be some evidence of fruit.

Spockrates said:

So I'd like us to return to the question of the opening post: Are we saved from hell through faith alone, or through faith and something more? What do you think Paul meant to say to us?

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I see the question as invalid.
You have not defined what we are saved from.

Br. Bear said:

I understand your approach here but must object to this point, at least in part, brother.
Certainly the junk stuff is constantly active against us but surely we can claim the victory and freedom and liberty from the power through Christ?

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Agreed,The word comes in and like an anti-malware program discovers and isolates errors.
It may not be able to remove it all at once just like the Israelites could not displace the locals all at once because the land could not bear it.
It may take a few restarts if the system is heavily compromised.

Br. Bear said:

Are you generalising

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Very much so.

Programs are hardly like spirits except in certain ways.
The role of an OS is to be an environment for programs.
The flesh seems like hardware because it returns to the bin.
It does seem to fall apart with the operator though so it's still and analogy in progress.

Br. Bear said:

Greetings,

It appears the present thought pattern has evolved from tradition rather than given birth (or born again/transformed through revelation and the word of knowledge. Much missed and much unconfidence, usually supported by aggressive defence due to pride. A nasty foe that will take any man down.

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Bear: Thanks for replying. Not sure what tradition you are speaking about.

There is widespread damage through following blindly and through not being fully persuaded.
Would you be interested in re-thinking or getting revelation on faith, repentance and belief (amongst other gems) that may well help or help well?

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Yes, I agree. I want my faith to not be blind. Please do help me rethink faith and repentance. That is why I'm here! What do you want me to consider?

It is refreshing to see honesty and honest questions being both/either confessed or simply asked and engaged in.

Bless you ....><>

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Thanks. I'd like to hear your thoughts on faith and repentance and how they relate to each other and salvation, if you would like to tell me.

gentle said:

Yes, we are saved by grace, by faith alone, and the good works comes as a result of the faith, genuine faith, God gave you and me.

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Thanks gentle. What about repentance? Isn't it required to be saved?


I mean, I'm thinking having my sins wiped out is salvation. What about you?

Thiscrosshurts said:

Agreed,but I just have fun chomping data,it has nothing to do with my faith.
At some point results matter at some point there should be some evidence of fruit.

I see the question as invalid.
You have not defined what we are saved from.

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I tend to think of every question as valid, except perhaps questions meant to trap a person, like, "Have you stopped teaching heresy, yet?" Whether the person answers yes or no, he's admitting to promoting heretical ideas.

Instead, I'd say the question is ambiguous. For the word saved might mean one of three different things--saved from (1) the punishment of sin, or (2) the power of sin, or (3) the presence of sin. So yes, I agree we need to define how the word is used in Ephesians 2. I believe it is likely used in the sense of (1), but please tell me why you disagree.

Thiscrosshurts said:

Agreed,The word comes in and like an anti-malware program discovers and isolates errors.

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I agree. And if you don't mind my adding my two cents, I'd say an antivirus program doesn't do a computer much good without the latest virus definitions. So the Word might not help us much until we define what its words mean. Otherwise we end up misdefining and misinterpreting its meaning, confusing good code with bad. So virus definitions are to an antivirus program what wisdom is to the word of God. Don't you think?

Who'd have thought such a modern analogy would lend itself so well to helping us understand?

Spockrates said:

I tend to think of every question as valid, except perhaps questions meant to trap a person, like, "Have you stopped teaching heresy, yet?" Whether the person answers yes or no, he's admitting to promoting heretical ideas.

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I mentioned before that asking a question based on misunderstanding or even a different
understanding can make it invalid or maybe a better word would be inappropriate to the listener.
The example I offered was "what is the marital status of the number three".

We agreed that saved can be used in different ways so unless we examine verse by verse
we end up with fuzzy or uncertain answers.

Spockrates said:

Instead, I'd say the question is ambiguous. For the word saved might mean one of three different things--saved from (1) the punishment of sin, or (2) the power of sin, or (3) the presence of sin. So yes, I agree we need to define how the word is used in Ephesians 2. I believe it is likely used in the sense of (1), but please tell me why you disagree.

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Ok, this question is better defined because you left out the eternal element so it is way less complex.
Jesus was punished for sin and I have died in him and was raised in him and are seated in him(Eph. 2).
Since I died I am dead to sin I am free from the power of sin and the presence of sin and ultimately the punishment of sin.
I know I am set free from these things because of the revelation of God's word and not by experience or logic.
But like Jesus I am now here in his name to enforce his finished work on any false imagination that exalts itself above his name.
However being part of a body of believers adds a layer of complexity.

Spockrates said:

I agree. And if you don't mind my adding my two cents, I'd say an antivirus program doesn't do a computer much good without the latest virus definitions. So the Word might not help us much until we define what its words mean. Otherwise we end up misdefining and misinterpreting its meaning, confusing good code with bad. So virus definitions are to an antivirus program what wisdom is to the word of God. Don't you think?

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I had to ponder that but I tend to agree.Wisdom seeks and isolates and checks for error ,the first thing wisdom gets is wisdom so yeah.

Bro Bear brought up tradition.
The traditional teaching is that we are saved from hell and we go to heaven when we die.
But nowhere in scripture does it say this.It says the spirit returns to God who gave it and the flesh returns to the dust.
So your spirit goes to heaven but since there is no time in heaven then it never left.
The kingdom of heaven is what we are supposed to seek.

Tradition does not fit with the dead being in the sea or hell giving up it's dead.
If hell gives up it's dead and then is thrown in the lake of fire it is not eternal.
Tradition has made hell and the lake of fire the same thing.
And what about the resurrection which"now is",I hear about the one coming
constantly but we don't dare speak about what the "now is"is.
The kingdom of heaven is within you.Why are we not searching for it?
I hear plenty of high sounding arguments but where is the love and the trust that
God works all things together for good.Where is the power Paul spoke of.
I dare say as a body we have missed the boat,but this to was worked in to the divine plan.

Howdee there Spockrates

I see you have a new thread and in just ten days your thread is already ten pages long.


I haven’t read it yet but wanted to say hello.

Hello…

To make it clear and plain, when you receive the grace of God, the faith he has given us, there's this realization and admittance that we, I have sinned and i'm a sinner and that i need the free gift God is giving me. And that my life is not in accordance to the will of God. And that i need to change by His help and grace alone. So, repentance is inclusive and a reality when one receives Christ as His personal Savior and Lord. That's the first part. Repentance is needed continually in our daily walk with the Lord Jesus, because repentance means a change of mind--- from ungodliness to godlinessmeaning, the sins that we now know, we'll not do it or turnaway from it and do what the Word of God says, applying the Word of God in our lives. That's the continual process of repentance everyday of our lives.

Strypes said:

Howdee there Spockrates

I see you have a new thread and in just ten days your thread is already ten pages long.


I haven’t read it yet but wanted to say hello.

Hello…

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Stripes: So good to see you! How have you been my friend?

Thiscrosshurts said:

Ok, this question is better defined because you left out the eternal element so it is way less complex. Jesus was punished for sin and I have died in him and was raised in him and are seated in him(Eph. 2). Since I died I am dead to sin I am free from the power of sin and the presence of sin and ultimately the punishment of sin.

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I find it fascinating when Paul speaks of the future as now, and I wonder if it is a language thing--as in Greek being like some Chinese languages that speak of the future as the present--or a God thing--as in seeing time the way God seems to see.

For I am not yet dead and raised from the dust of the grave, nor am I typing this while sitting in some heavenly throne! So I wonder if Paul is using some form of hyperbole, or actually is--as ancient prophets appeared to be--seeing himself through God's eternal eyes. Such holy sight might have a profound effect on me, personally. Seeing that the choices I make now to sin or not to sin shape what I see I will be.

I know I am set free from these things because of the revelation of God's word and not by experience or logic. But like Jesus I am now here in his name to enforce his finished work on any false imagination that exalts itself above his name. However being part of a body of believers adds a layer of complexity.

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Well, while I agree experience is grounded in the past and present, I would not say logic has such a limitation. Logic does help one think clearly about what will be. It is a tool to help one become or remain wise, and I think a gift from and even an attribute of God. So I believe it will help you know.

I had to ponder that but I tend to agree.Wisdom seeks and isolates and checks for error ,the first thing wisdom gets is wisdom so yeah.

Bro Bear brought up tradition. The traditional teaching is that we are saved from hell and we go to heaven when we die. But nowhere in scripture does it say this.It says the spirit returns to God who gave it and the flesh returns to the dust.

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I'm unfamiliar with the scripture about the spirit returning to God--although it is something Socrates believed as well as something I've read in the ZKiran. Are you able to quote the biblical passage for me?

So your spirit goes to heaven but since there is no time in heaven then it never left. The kingdom of heaven is what we are supposed to seek.

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If by using the words, "no time" you don't mean an absent of time but a time unlike any we have experienced, then I agree. We live in the four dimensions of height, depth, width and time. Some physicists suggest there are more dimensions than these. Eternity may be such a dimension.

Tradition does not fit with the dead being in the sea or hell giving up it's dead.
If hell gives up it's dead and then is thrown in the lake of fire it is not eternal.
Tradition has made hell and the lake of fire the same thing.
And what about the resurrection which"now is",I hear about the one coming
constantly but we don't dare speak about what the "now is"is.
The kingdom of heaven is within you.Why are we not searching for it?
I hear plenty of high sounding arguments but where is the love and the trust that
God works all things together for good.Where is the power Paul spoke of.
I dare say as a body we have missed the boat,but this to was worked in to the divine plan.

Click to expand...

Amen! So then, now that we have examined what the word saved means in Ephesians 2, what say you of repentance? Is it required to be saved, or are we saved through faith alone?

gentle said:

To make it clear and plain, when you receive the grace of God, the faith he has given us, there's this realization and admittance that we, I have sinned and i'm a sinner and that i need the free gift God is giving me. And that my life is not in accordance to the will of God. And that i need to change by His help and grace alone.

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Thanks for joining the conversation, Gentle. True that!

So, repentance is inclusive and a reality when one receives Christ as His personal Savior and Lord. That's the first part.

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Yes, but is it an inclusive cause, or merely an inclusive effect? Does repentance--like faith--cause us to receive this free gift from God?

Repentance is needed continually in our daily walk with the Lord Jesus, because repentance means a change of mind--- from ungodliness to godlinessmeaning, the sins that we now know, we'll not do it or turnaway from it and do what the Word of God says, applying the Word of God in our lives. That's the continual process of repentance everyday of our lives.

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Agreed.

ThisCrossHurts: Sorry about the typo. I meant Koran or Qu'ran, not ZKiran.

Strypes: Sorry about the typo. I meant Strypes, not Stripes--sometimes I hate the auto-correct feature of my phone!

Spockrates said:

Well, while I agree experience is grounded in the past and present, I would not say logic has such a limitation. Logic does help one think clearly about what will be. It is a tool to help one become or remain wise, and I think a gift from and even an attribute of God. So I believe it will help you know.

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Ok,that may have been to broad a statement so I would say there are perhaps different types of logic and that traditional logic based on what we see abd know
is limited.
The discovery of electricity is a story of developing a logic based on experiments.
Electrical logic understands electricity and judges it by it's own standards not standards we logically felt it should have.
Electricity travels through metal like you and I pass through air.
The logic of electricity was discovered by observing electricity and not by.

Spockrates said:

I'm unfamiliar with the scripture about the spirit returning to God--although it is something Socrates believed as well as something I've read in the ZKiran. Are you able to quote the biblical passage for me?

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Ecclesiastes 12:7 For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Iv'e posted this before.
You may want to reread my post #28 because we keep going over the same thing.
Soul and spirit are two different things.
In another post I dropped some scripture to show some possibilities.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
The new living translation seems more accurate to me because a spirit is eternal.
The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person." But the last Adam--that is, Christ--is a life-giving Spirit.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Thus also it is written: “Adam the first man was a living soul; the last Adam - The Life Giver Spirit.

Many times soul is translated person
From wikipediea
The current concept of person was developed during the Trinitarian and Christological debates of the 4th and 5th centuries in contrast to the word nature.[2] During the theological debates, some philosophical tools (concepts) were needed so that the debates could be held on common basis to all theological schools. The purpose of the debate was to establish the relation, similarities and differences between the Λóγος/Verbum and God. The philosophical concept of person arose, taking the word "prosopon" (πρόσωπον) from the Greek theatre. Therefore, Christus (the Λóγος/Verbum) and God were defined as different "persons". This concept was applied later to the Holy Ghost, the angels and to all human beings.

Soul is sometimes equated with ego or self.
Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin
Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
Colossians 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,

Spockrates said:

If by using the words, "no time" you don't mean an absent of time but a time unlike any we have experienced, then I agree. We live in the four dimensions of height, depth, width and time. Some physicists suggest there are more dimensions than these. Eternity may be such a dimension.

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Yes,Einstein said space and time are the same fabric and you could not have one without the other.
We are still speaking of earthly things though.
John 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
This not referring to our conversation I just want to point out that we really don't fully understand earthly things.

Have you ever heard of the double slit experiment?

Spockrates said:

Amen! So then, now that we have examined what the word saved means in Ephesians 2, what say you of repentance? Is it required to be saved, or are we saved through faith alone?

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Believing God instead of your logic is repentance.
Re pent means to turn again.Look again and believe.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Thiscrosshurts said:

Believing God instead of your logic is repentance.
Re pent means to turn again.Look again and believe.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

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I'm confused. (Yes, I know that is easy for me to do!) I though faith was believing. Are you thinking repentance is the same thing as faith? Please explain.

Spockrates said:

Yes, I agree, and thanks for replying to my post. Some things are crystal clear in scripture--the prohibition against pornography being one.

But I'm asking about interpreting scripture, where a biblical passage is only clear as mud. Consider this passage:

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
(Mark 16)​

When I became born again, I hung out with fundamentalist baptists. When I asked them about this passage, they said the Pentecostal practice of speaking in tongues is a deception of the devil, and this passage is speaking of speaking another known language, like Latin or Hebrew.

So what do you say? Is speaking in tongues satanic? If not, then did these fundamentalists fail to hear Jesus' voice?

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LOL, I am Pentecostal. You might be able to guess.

Spockrates said:

I'm confused. (Yes, I know that is easy for me to do!) I though faith was believing. Are you thinking repentance is the same thing as faith? Please explain.

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I randomly sampled three new testament verses to better understand repent.
All three were translated from the Greek metanoeo
3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").
Change after being with think.
It's a think change,a rethink.
To be confronted by something that causes you go from not believing to believing
Believing that I was crucified with Christ,buried with him and resurrected with him and that I am dead to sin should cause me to think differently afterwards.

That's the foundation,anything I do after that point is building on the foundation with wood hay bricks or gold.
The foundation is safe no matter what I build whether shakable or unshakable,Jesus the foundation remains.
1 Corinthians 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

B-A-C said:

LOL, I am Pentecostal. You might be able to guess.

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Yes, I read your profile.


And I never did agree with their interpretation of scripture regarding speaking in tongues, at least I'm not convinced it is if the Devil, though I'm not sure it is of God, either.

But since you are also a Fundamentalist, you likely believe they are born again. Though you don't share their faith that you are under the influence of Satan if you speak in tongues, you do share their faith in what you believe are the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

So I'm thinking you must agree with me that becoming a genuine born again Christian in no way guarantees one will be immune to misinterpreting scripture and spiritual deception. Am I correct, or am I missing something?