The Law or not the Law that is the question?

RJ · Mar 9, 2016

Brother-Paul said:
There is no contest brother? The discussion was started with an open mind, I still have an open mind but, Jesus' Words, His Commands are so clear. More on that later.

Yes brother ALL scripture is God inspired...

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What you quote brother we agree, the law is (not was) Holy, Righteous, Blameless and worthy of striving towards. In fact as stated Jesus says we should obey His Commandments, and He has come to fulfil the Law not otherwise.

Jesus is the fulfilment of the Law, we agree brother

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Paul wrote his letter to the Romans before ever visiting Rome, yet his heartfelt concern was for the believers there and this is clearly evident throughout this Epistle.

Paul’s name stands alone here (except for the Holy Spirit’s guidance)—no Silas, Timothy or other brother with him. For Paul is Christ’s apostle unto the Gentiles, the declarer, as here in Romans, of the gospel for this dispensation.

The essential doctrines and directions, of which the apostle Paul wrote, set forth the fulfilment of the promises by the prophets. It spoke of the Son of God, Jesus the Saviour, the promised Messiah, who came from David as to his human nature, but was also declared to be the Son of God, by the Divine power which raised him from the dead.

Paul was an Apostle of God, he was writing to the Christians (ex-Jews) in Rome, so he also had the Jews in mind.

First, he told how wonderful it is to be a Christian. Our justification is not simply a guarantee of heaven, as thrilling as that is, but it is also the source of tremendous blessings that we enjoy here and now.

Second, he assured his readers/including us that justification is a lasting thing. His Jewish readers in particular would ask, "Can this spiritual experience last if it does not require obedience to the Law? What about the trials and sufferings of life? What about the coming judgment?" When God declared us righteous in Jesus Christ, He gave to us seven spiritual blessings that assure us that we cannot be lost.

The gospel of the New Testament is the same good news of God which was promised in the Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus Christ is the Subject and the Author of the gospel, but the gospel began long before the birth of Jesus. The gospel began long, long ago in the mind and plan of God, and God foretold the coming of the gospel (His Son) through the prophets of old.

There is an amazing amount of information and direction in Romans. The Gospel the Power of God, Justification by Faith: Peace With God, a Standing in Grace, Sure Hope of Coming Glory, Patience, Joy in God, etc, etc.

All in all Paul was balancing what he wrote to suit his audience, Gentiles, New Christians, ex-Jews, Jewish thought and knowledge, whilst at the same time aiming to revealing the heavenly character, calling, and destiny of the Church as the Body and Bride of Christ, and as God’s House.

So it appears in this discussion we have two statements in scripture, that may on the face of them appear to possibly conflict, but nothing conflicts in scripture there has to be a reason, there is always a reason why we read what we read. Jesus statement in Matthew 5:17-18 and Pauls in Romans 6:14 to name just one verse from each view seem to conflict but do they?

Keeping an open mind this is how I see/read these scriptures, I confirm I remain open minded and any thoughts I have now are based on how I understand scripture now. When ever there are verses ‘that appear’ to say different things we should always have open minds and search out what is actually said and what is actually meant from what is said.

What is clear to me at this stage is Jesus teaching is so precise, there should be no way this could be misinterpreted.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Obey my commandments etc.

Paul on the other hand in Romans is aiming to set out the truth, but is trying to balance what he says to suit his audience.

Jesus is God's One and Only Son, God Himself said...

Matthew 17:5 (NIV2011)
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Paul's writings require a lot more attention and investigation due to the content. He as an Apostle, called by God, what he has written will no doubt mean the same as what Jesus says but, his writings need to be read in context, first the passages, then the chapters, then the New Testament, then the Bible as a whole. Quoting single verses in Romans I think is not recommended and something I try avoid due to the amount of information and direction Paul includes.

Bless you brother :thumbsup:

Too me, it is a lot more simple and straight forward than you convey. Jesus is the law.Only Jesus is holy, righteous and blameless. If he , himself, is the embodiment of the law, the only way he can fulfill himself is to be inside us. Inside us, he fulfills he law. Not inside us, he can not fulfill the law.....pretty simple!
Romans 10: 19-21
John 1:17
The truth is Jesus was before Moses. The law (Jesus) came through Moses and then grace came through Jesus. The "law" and grace is fulfilled only if Jesus is inside us!
You created the thread: " The law or not the law, that is the question".
You say, it is all too clear to you. I owe you that respect but, this is what is clear to me:

You asked for input from others, with no apparent preconceived stipulation of what is "obvious to you or not!. I gave that input. Yes, it is the law, in and through us because of Jesus Christ ( the law) is in us and none of our on doing!

RJ · Mar 9, 2016

norapture said:
Does anyone keep the law anymore

Many try but fail.

norapture said:
if you break one law are we not guilty of breaking all the the law, is that not why no flesh shall be justified by the law

That is what God warns us about and I believe it! The law is perfect, we are not!

norapture said:
I see a lot of post that says that Jesus come to fulfil the law, did Jesus not do what he said he came to do ( to fulfil the law) is not love the fulfillment of the law , did he not fulfil it by love.

Yes, but we need to fulfill the law too. That is one of the reasons for the law being given, for us to fulfill, but "where we are weak, he is strong" and where we can not fulfill the law, we can allow him to fulfill his law through us!

Brother-Paul · Mar 9, 2016

RJ said:
Too me, it is a lot more simple and straight forward than you convey. Jesus is the law.Only Jesus is holy, righteous and blameless. If he , himself, is the embodiment of the law, the only way he can fulfill himself is to be inside us. Inside us, he fulfills he law. Not inside us, he can not fulfill the law.....pretty simple!
Romans 10: 19-21
John 1:17
The truth is Jesus was before Moses. The law (Jesus) came through Moses and then grace came through Jesus. The "law" and grace is fulfilled only if Jesus is inside us!
You created the thread: " The law or not the law, that is the question".
You asked for input from others, with no apparent preconceived stipulation. I gave that input. Yes, it is the law, in and through us because of Jesus Christ in us and none of our on doing!

Thank you RJ, all replies are welcome that was the object of the discussion. The title was aimed at encouraging debate regarding the Law and to have a better or fuller understanding at what ever stage a person may be at in their life and faith. My heart felt concerns were also stated in the words in the initial post, in the last paragraph... Lets have fun with this remembering as born again believers that we are brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.....

Jesus was in the beginning, the Law was given to Moses, Grace did come through Jesus Christ.

Jesus did come to fulfil the Law not to abolish it, yes as born again believers Jesus does live in us.

We agree brother

But in accepting Jesus, we have to accept All He teaches, we have to accept the Law, the first five books in our Bible.

Jesus said Obey My commandments. God said Listen to Him, This is my Son whom I am well pleased.

norapture · Mar 9, 2016

2 Corinthians 3: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God
V6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter, but of the spirit, for the letter, killeth , but the spirit giveth life.
V7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven
in stones , was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which glory ( was to be done away).

The law of sin is by the first covenant, it was done away by the new covenant.

V11 For that which ( is ) done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Acts 15:24 For as much as we have heard, that certain which event out from us have troubled you with words, subverting you souls, saying , Ye must be circumcised , and ( keep the law ) to whom we gave no such commandment .

Romans 7: 1 Know ye not, brethren, for I speak to them that know the law , how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth ?
V2 For the woman which hath a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth , but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
V3 So then if , while her husband liveth , she married to another man , she shall be called an adulteress though she be married to another man.
V4 Wherefore , my brethren, ye also are become ( dead to the law ) should he married to another , even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
V5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
V6 But now ( we are delivered from the law ) that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of the spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Ephesians 2:11-15
V15 Having ( abolished ) in his flesh the enmity, even ( the law of commandments ) contained inordinances, for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.

Galatians 3: 23 But before faith came , we were kept under the law,shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
V24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith
V25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster

What one needs to know once we come to Christ we are dead to the law, because we have no need for the law,cause we serve Christ not be cause we are told to but because we love him
The law is for the unbelievers , not for believers cause we serve God from the heart , not because we think we if follow the law we will be saved , like they did , they serve by the letter, but we by love in the Spirit.

Also they was a change in the law , it was the law of sin , but now the law of faith.

RJ · Mar 9, 2016

Brother-Paul said:
But in accepting Jesus, we have to accept All He teaches, we have to accept the Law, the first five books in our Bible.

What do you mean accept?
With regards to Pentateuch,...why do you point those out and not the other books of the Bible all the way to Revelation?
Are we saved by the law or by grace?

Brother-Paul · Mar 9, 2016

@RJ

When I consider anything in God's Word, I always ask first... What does Jesus say.

Jesus was God's one and only son, no one comes to the Father except through Him. Our Father in Heaven says... Listen to Him.

Only after considering what Jesus says do I then consider the Epistles, Revelation the Old Testament including the Prophets up to John.

Yes we agree we are saved by Grace RJ, but then we sin so we are in the flesh! We therefore cannot get away from the Law!

Matthew 5:17-48
After Jesus says, He has not come to abolish the Law but to fulfil it, He then warns against...

Murder, adultery, divorce, oaths, an eye for an eye and loving our enemy. All items in the Law.

Can anyone tell me one member of mankind that has never sinned? No, we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

RJ · Mar 9, 2016

Brother-Paul said:
Only after considering what Jesus says do I then consider the Epistles, Revelation the Old Testament including the Prophets up to John.

So how do you listen to Jesus other than his ENTIRE word?

Brother-Paul said:
Yes we agree we are saved by Grace RJ, but then we sin so we are in the flesh! We therefore cannot get away from the Law!

Yes, that is saved by grace alone and not the law, right? No we can't get away from the law, it lives in us and reveals our sin to us! The law has always and will always point to our sin.....thank God he is inside us!

Brother-Paul said:
Murder, adultery, divorce, oaths, an eye for an eye and loving our enemy. All items in the Law.

Yes and also in fulfilling it, he took the law a step further: Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

God bless you and your future spiritual growth!

amadeus2 · Mar 9, 2016

Brother-Paul said:
There is no contest brother? The discussion was started with an open mind, I still have an open mind but, Jesus' Words, His Commands are so clear. More on that later.
.........................................................

What is clear to me at this stage is Jesus teaching is so precise, there should be no way this could be misinterpreted.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Obey my commandments etc.

Paul on the other hand in Romans is aiming to set out the truth, but is trying to balance what he says to suit his audience.

Jesus is God's One and Only Son, God Himself said...

Matthew 17:5 (NIV2011)
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Paul's writings require a lot more attention and investigation due to the content. He as an Apostle, called by God, what he has written will no doubt mean the same as what Jesus says but, his writings need to be read in context, first the passages, then the chapters, then the New Testament, then the Bible as a whole. Quoting single verses in Romans I think is not recommended and something I try avoid due to the amount of information and direction Paul includes.

Bless you brother :thumbsup:

Clear and precise perhaps to you and to me [to me only sometimes clear and precise] and to others here given understanding led by the Holy Spirit, but...

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:13-16

Too many read things in the Bible without understanding even though we may see the same particular thing clearly.

You may speak of the difficulty of Paul, but he really does teach the same thing as Jesus, if we are able to understand.

Avoiding Paul, even just short verses or phrases may cause problems for people later because they failed to get into the scripture fully. If it is a short passage why should it cause us trouble if we are being led by the Holy Ghost? But...

I still, after many years, sometimes have to put a passage of scripture on the shelf until and if God decides that I need to understand it, but I wouldn't recommend generally that a person avoid certain things as a matter of course. Too arbitrary. Black and white rules may have applied in the OT to people living in the times of the OT that might have bee a good thing, but how many things are now black and white in every situation?

Paul writes:

"For now we see through a glass darkly..." I Cor 13:12

And then continues with...

"But then face to face..."

When does "face to face" arrive? Probably many things, but one thing is for certain, it is talking about growth. John the Baptist spoke of this here:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

Some people have recommended that not everyone read the Bible. Wasn't that a tenet of the main organizational church? I was a Catholic until 1961 and was Bible reading was discouraged. Even after I stopped being an active Catholic I did not read a Bible for the first time until 1976 at the age of 32.

We should share with people what comes from our heart. Let our hearts be always directed by the Holy Ghost so our directions are always good ones. Of course, if we are in doubt about the source of what comes to our mind, we might want to remain silent...

RJ · Mar 9, 2016

amadeus2 said:
When does "face to face" arrive? Probably many things, but one thing is for certain, it is talking about growth. John the Baptist spoke of this here:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

In lieu of a thread about "Face to Face" and no disrespect but I don't get your analogy of face to face and John 3:30?
I don't have any reason to believe that face to face means many things, including growth! Face to face is being in front of God.."face to face'!

Exodus 33:20 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”.....God warns Moses that, as a physical human, he can not see God face to face and live. Maybe he would have spontaneously combustive?!
1 Corinthians 13:20 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. Face to face here is you dead, in the spiritual form, and finally looking God face to face. Note: you are now perfected and you fully know as well as you have been known....been known by who....by God which you are looking at face to face!

amadeus2 · Mar 9, 2016

RJ said:
In lieu of a thread about "Face to Face" and no disrespect but I don't get your analogy of face to face and John 3:30?
I don't have any reason to believe that face to face means many things, including growth! Face to face is being in front of God.."face to face'!

Exodus 33:20 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”.....God warns Moses that, as a physical human, he can not see God face to face and live. Maybe he would have spontaneously combustive?!

1 Corinthians 13:20 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. Face to face here is you dead, in the spiritual form, and finally looking God face to face. Note: you are now perfected and you fully know as well as you have been known....been known by who....by God which you are looking at face to face!

Growth [including improved vision] is the connection between John 3:30 and I Cor 13:12. The growth is Jesus in me (the He must increase of John 3:30). Vision is one of the most important things is it not?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

What happens to people who have no vision... to people who are blind?

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matt 15:14

So then from blindness when we met the Master we are to grow from a very limited vision...

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part;..."

To vision that is able to see all of God's plan:

"...but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

What do happened when Jesus touched the man's eyes the first time?

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking." Mark 8:23-24. Does not that equal "through a glass, darkly"?

And then Jesus touched the man's eyes again:

"After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:25. Doesn't that equal "face to face"?

Back in the OT Moses wanted to see God and it was allowed in a limited way:

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Ex 33:20

"And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Ex 33:22-23

Moses, that great humble man of God was not allowed to see God's face. David also wanted to see God's face:

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

They were unable to see better, but they were not blind. Now we have more than them, but we have a potential that Moses and David did not have, not during their time: face to face". So then are we growing... or are we standing still? Is our vision improving or is it deteriorating?

Brother-Paul · Mar 10, 2016

amadeus2 said:
Clear and precise perhaps to you and to me [to me only sometimes clear and precise] and to others here given understanding led by the Holy Spirit, but...

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Thank you for your input brother, the more people who comment the better.

Just clarifying on your above statement, we are not talking parables here. I understand what you are saying and that it is meant with good intention but, there is no mistaking what Jesus says here...

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

amadeus2 said:
Too many read things in the Bible without understanding even though we may see the same particular thing clearly.

A reply to your comment only. In general, we know that too many people quote single verses getting the actual message out of context.

amadeus2 said:
You may speak of the difficulty of Paul, but he really does teach the same thing as Jesus, if we are able to understand.

You have hit the nail on the head brother! Allow me to explain more and some statements I made earlier that may have people wondering. (including RJ)

I have found whenever we talk to people of the LAW and whether it is applicable today, people pass one opinion or the other or shy away from the subject. This is not good, how can we every answer the question of a search heart on whether the LAW is applicable today if we cannot explain what Jesus says and what Paul says

1 Peter 3:15 (NIV2011) comes to mind
15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

As disciples what good is it if we can only say Jesus says... or Paul says... and not confirm how they mean the same thing and how they knit together. No wonder there are as it seems extreme views of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in the eyes of God. To me, this means we are leaving the doors open for the enemy of souls. It puts in question what is a sin and what isn't a sin.

So with that on mind I searched the forum and didn't find anything that told me this had been discussed on the forum. So after praying I decided to add this topic... The Law or not the Law that is the question. The aim was to get both views discussed and reach an acceptable understanding on how what they both say knits together. But I must admit it appeared slow at the start. After just a few posts on the subject all agreeing with Jesus' statements... Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. I felt it right to add a reply on the lines of... OK this is all the replies we have so far so on this basis lets say this is the only answer. Brilliant, PTL, it created a response from the Grace and Truth members. Don't get me wrong when I word it that way! I was only trying to encourage debate, I felt in my heart that we needed to involve the tremendous knowledge of our dear brothers and sisters in Christ on the forum, which has been truly blessed, so as together we can take what Our Lord says, take what the Apostle Paul says and better understand how they connect. After all if someone asks us is the Law relevant today, or is Jesus right, or is Paul right, (we know they both are) then we are better equipped to reply

PTL, we now appear to have both views in the discussion which was the aim from the start. So from here we should have a healthy discussion (that others are reading and will read) so that we can better explain what Jesus and Paul are saying and how they mean the same thing.

I must admit at this time I do not have the answer, I am sure there are many brothers and sisters in the same boat. It is also clear to me at this stage if there answer was clean cut we would have heard it by now. For me I will always start by taking Jesus Word, He is the Son of God, He is the nearest to the Father, He is as close as a heart beat from Him. He was there in the beginning, I will always start by asking 'What is Jesus saying' after all God said 'Listen to Him, in Him I am well pleased'. He told us, Obey My Commands.

But I also accept what Paul says, but the gap of understanding between them is to wide at present to clearly tell an enquiring heart a God given answer. We have a responsibility to be able to give answers to scripture...

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV2011)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

B-A-C has also started a new thread The Law and the Spirit which members may also like to read along with this one.
http://www.talkjesus.com/threads/the-law-and-the-spirit.55257/

Brother-Paul · Mar 10, 2016

RJ said:
So how do you listen to Jesus other than his ENTIRE word?

Yes, that is saved by grace alone and not the law, right? No we can't get away from the law, it lives in us and reveals our sin to us! The law has always and will always point to our sin.....thank God he is inside us!

Yes and also in fulfilling it, he took the law a step further: Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

God bless you and your future spiritual growth!

Brother-Paul said: ↑
Only after considering what Jesus says do I then consider the Epistles, Revelation the Old Testament including the Prophets up to John.
Click to expand...
So how do you listen to Jesus other than his ENTIRE word?

I should have said... Only after considering what Jesus SAID. (I understand what you are saying)

↑
Yes we agree we are saved by Grace RJ, but then we sin so we are in the flesh! We therefore cannot get away from the Law!

Yes, that is saved by grace alone and not the law, right? No we can't get away from the law, it lives in us and reveals our sin to us! The law has always and will always point to our sin.....thank God he is inside us!

Thank you for confirming we cannot get away from the Law.
Thank God Jesus is inside us. Amen.

↑
Murder, adultery, divorce, oaths, an eye for an eye and loving our enemy. All items in the Law.

Yes and also in fulfilling it, he took the law a step further: Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

And many more examples brother, Jesus came to fulfil the Law, He also as you state further clarified certain aspects in the Law to make them clearer

We have covered... Murder, adultery, divorce, oaths, an eye for an eye and loving our enemy and more now lets add another.

Homosexuality or any form of sex not with a married man and woman. Those who say they are gay are homosexual, we know that, many will quote the two main verses in Leviticus against such practices as they are in the Law, the first five books in the Bible. But gay people say they do not apply, they say we are free from the Law and that Jesus never said anything against man going with man. Although Jesus maybe didn't directly quote the word homosexual He did cover it within the Law. But the New Testaments has many scriptures against such acts. Rom 1:26-27, 1 Cor 6:9-11, 1 Cor 6:18, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 4:19, Col 3:5, James 1:14-15 to name just a few.

God bless you and your future spiritual growth!

And you brother.

RJ · Mar 10, 2016

amadeus2 said:
Growth [including improved vision] is the connection between John 3:30 and I Cor 13:12. The growth is Jesus in me (the He must increase of John 3:30). Vision is one of the most important things is it not?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

What happens to people who have no vision... to people who are blind?

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matt 15:14

So then from blindness when we met the Master we are to grow from a very limited vision...

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part;..."

To vision that is able to see all of God's plan:

"...but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

What do happened when Jesus touched the man's eyes the first time?

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking." Mark 8:23-24. Does not that equal "through a glass, darkly"?

And then Jesus touched the man's eyes again:

"After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:25. Doesn't that equal "face to face"?

Back in the OT Moses wanted to see God and it was allowed in a limited way:

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Ex 33:20

"And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Ex 33:22-23

Moses, that great humble man of God was not allowed to see God's face. David also wanted to see God's face:

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

They were unable to see better, but they were not blind. Now we have more than them, but we have a potential that Moses and David did not have, not during their time: face to face". So then are we growing... or are we standing still? Is our vision improving or is it deteriorating?

In this life, perhaps what you say can happen but, face to face refers to the next life. Face to face...what face to what face?...your face to God's face...that is only possible in God's realm. The verses in 1 Cor 13, talk about imperfection going away and your perfection coming. Only in his realm will we be perfected. In his presence and perfect, then and only then can we know fully as god know us. Until then, we only know (imperfectly) in part like through a glass or in a mirror dimly but, then, finally we are face to face with him...what a glorious moment!
This is what I believe and what I teach my grandchildren.
God bless your understanding and belief!

RJ · Mar 10, 2016

So may we go from strength to strength,
And daily grow in grace,
Till in Thy image raised at length,
We see Thee face to face.

amadeus2 · Mar 10, 2016

amadeus2 said: ↑

Clear and precise perhaps to you and to me [to me only sometimes clear and precise] and to others here given understanding led by the Holy Spirit, but...

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Brother-Paul:

Thank you for your input brother, the more people who comment the better.

Just clarifying on your above statement, we are not talking parables here. I understand what you are saying and that it is meant with good intention but, there is no mistaking what Jesus says here...

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I see much, if not the whole, of written scripture as a parable or a group of parables. Sometimes the connections between the OT and NT require an understanding of a parable. Who but God already understands it all? Not me, certainly!

Perhaps speaking of parables rather than types or shadows will make some things clearer to us.

amadeus2 said: ↑

Too many read things in the Bible without understanding even though we may see the same particular thing clearly.

Brother-Paul:

A reply to your comment only. In general, we know that too many people quote single verses getting the actual message out of context.

Undoubtedly so. I don’t try to sort things out too much although sometimes the way the head of this man works gets in the way. I try to read all of scripture regularly and let God tie things together for me. I know that I have some things wrong because I still get in God’s way too often. Of course if I already knew what things I had wrong I would have changed them or would be working to do so.

amadeus2 said: ↑

You may speak of the difficulty of Paul, but he really does teach the same thing as Jesus, if we are able to understand.

Brother-Paul:

You have hit the nail on the head brother! Allow me to explain more and some statements I made earlier that may have people wondering. (including RJ)

I have found whenever we talk to people of the LAW and whether it is applicable today, people pass one opinion or the other or shy away from the subject. This is not good, how can we every answer the question of a search heart on whether the LAW is applicable today if we cannot explain what Jesus says and what Paul says

1 Peter 3:15 (NIV2011) comes to mind
15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

What is this preparation? It is certainly more than study alone, is it not?

Brother-Paul:

... Brilliant, PTL, it created a response from the Grace and Truth members.

I wouldn’t want to be pressed into defining what constitutes the beliefs of such members as opposed to others.

[quoteBrother-Paul:
... I was only trying to encourage debate, I felt in my heart that we needed to involve the tremendous knowledge of our dear brothers and sisters in Christ on the forum, which has been truly blessed, so as together we can take what Our Lord says, take what the Apostle Paul says and better understand how they connect. After all if someone asks us is the Law relevant today, or is Jesus right, or is Paul right, (we know they both are) then we are better equipped to reply[/quote]

I am not against what you said, but I am still not certain what we are discussing. I thought it was the connection between the OT and the NT and/or what the Law is or is not, but I am still uncertain. Is it rather what some people suppose to be differences between Jesus and Paul?

PTL, we now appear to have both views in the discussion which was the aim from the start. So from here we should have a healthy discussion (that others are reading and will read) so that we can better explain what Jesus and Paul are saying and how they mean the same thing.

Are there people here who believe Jesus and Paul were teaching a different message? I have met a few who believed we should ignore the teachings of Paul and following the teachings of Jesus only, but they were not on this forum.

I must admit at this time I do not have the answer, I am sure there are many brothers and sisters in the same boat. It is also clear to me at this stage if there answer was clean cut we would have heard it by now. For me I will always start by taking Jesus Word, He is the Son of God, He is the nearest to the Father, He is as close as a heart beat from Him. He was there in the beginning, I will always start by asking 'What is Jesus saying' after all God said 'Listen to Him, in Him I am well pleased'. He told us, Obey My Commands.

But I also accept what Paul says, but the gap of understanding between them is to wide at present to clearly tell an enquiring heart a God given answer. We have a responsibility to be able to give answers to scripture...

In the OT where supposedly people had black and white rules to follow a person might have been able to do what you’re suggesting, but since the time of Jesus on this planet as a man our sources and our directives are a bit different, are they not? Now that which was prophesied in the OT is happening. God’s Word is being written on people’s hearts and that does not mean memorized or even set up as a set of definite black and white rules that a person could easily put down on paper.

Our preparation is NOT accomplished by study alone:

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. ” II Tim 2:15

Do we understand that NT verse in connection with this OT verse?

“And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. ” Ecc 12:12

amadeus2 · Mar 10, 2016

RJ said:
In this life, perhaps what you say can happen but, face to face refers to the next life. Face to face...what face to what face?...your face to God's face...that is only possible in God's realm. The verses in 1 Cor 13, talk about imperfection going away and your perfection coming. Only in his realm will we be perfected. In his presence and perfect, then and only then can we know fully as god know us. Until then, we only know (imperfectly) in part like through a glass or in a mirror dimly but, then, finally we are face to face with him...what a glorious moment!
This is what I believe and what I teach my grandchildren.
God bless your understanding and belief!

I agree that face to face refers to seeing God, but why must it begin in the hereafter? Should it not begin now... before the dirt is thrown in our faces?

What does Jesus mean with these words?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26

If we never die, then what about us is going to change and when will it change? Is natural death even a factor?

Brother-Paul · Mar 11, 2016

amadeus2 said:
I am not against what you said, but I am still not certain what we are discussing. I thought it was the connection between the OT and the NT and/or what the Law is or is not, but I am still uncertain. Is it rather what some people suppose to be differences between Jesus and Paul?

Greetings brother, the topic is The Law or Not the Law, is the Law relevant to Christians today?

So Yes it is between the OT and the NT, it has to be as Jesus said, He has not come to abolish the Law but to fulfil it.

But, Yes it is between what Jesus said, He is Fulfilling the Law and Paul stating we are Free from the Law, as many say, the Law is not applicable to Christians today.

amadeus2 said:
Are there people here who believe Jesus and Paul were teaching a different message? I have met a few who believed we should ignore the teachings of Paul and following the teachings of Jesus only, but they were not on this forum.

That is not the point brother, I do not believe people on here are separating what Jesus says and what Paul says, but no one yet has explained how both statements, which appear on the surface to contradict, to mean the same thing. We know and agree they both mean the same but a clear understanding of how is required, by me anyway. As mentioned previously, it really does concern me that if you talk about the Law and whether it is applicable to Christians today, some point out what Jesus says, some point out what Paul says, no one seems to explain how the two statements in God's eyes mean the same, people seem to voice one or the other and shy away from any further discussion.

I know I am not on my own in wanting to understand how these statements knit together, if someone asks me what scripture means I always aim to speak in the Truth, only quoting what scripture means, never quoting what scripture could mean. So if I am asked about whether the Law applies today I need in my heart and mind to know, without doubt, exactly what Jesus and Paul says, I obviously know what they say, we all do, but also I need t0 know how they mean the same thing. If someone says to me Jesus says He has not come to abolish the Law but fulfil it, then say but Paul says we are free from the Law, I don't want to skate around the issue, I need to know clearly and guide the enquiring soul with the Truth in the Word and explain how they both mean the same thing. I am not there yet with this one.

To me what Jesus said comes first.

What Paul said, I agree with because as an Apostle, called by God, he was guided by the Holy Spirit.

I do not want to be in the position where I can only quote Jesus says, or only quote Paul says, I need in my heart to quote both and understand and explain to others how both mean the same thing. All scripture is God inspired...

I have given this to the Lord in prayer, I know give it to those more learned than myself.

Bless you my friend

B-A-C · Mar 11, 2016

amadeus2 said:
Are there people here who believe Jesus and Paul were teaching a different message? I have met a few who believed we should ignore the teachings of Paul and following the teachings of Jesus only, but they were not on this forum.

They are here, trust me. However usually it's the other way around. They say we should obey Paul but ignore
the teachings of Jesus.

B-A-C · Mar 11, 2016

Brother-Paul said:
I know I am not on my own in wanting to understand how these statements knit together, if someone asks me what scripture means I always aim to speak in the Truth, only quoting what scripture means, never quoting what scripture could mean. So if I am asked about whether the Law applies today I need in my heart and mind to know, without doubt, exactly what Jesus and Paul says, I obviously know what they say, we all do, but also I need t0 know how they mean the same thing. If someone says to me Jesus says He has not come to abolish the Law but fulfil it, then say but Paul says we are free from the Law,

We can go back to classic arguments of theologians through the centuries.
Argument 1, the law...

1. We are under the law, but we are free from the penalty of the law (death)
2. We are under the law, but we are no longer under the Jewish ceremonial laws (circumcision, animal sacrifice,
confession to priests, stoning offenders, etc.. )
3. We are totally not under the law at all in any way.
4. A mixture of 2 and 3 above together.
5. The law never applied to Gentiles, and only ever applied to Jews. (and since Jesus was a Jew... )

To me... #4 above makes the most sense. It's the only way I can reconcile the seeming differences between
Paul and everyone else (Peter, James, John and especially Jesus)

Argument 2. Fulfillment.
1. Jesus fulfulls it all and it has nothing to do with us at all.
2. Jesus fulfills the part where we come short. We should should try, but He does the rest.
3. Jesus fulfills none of it, it's totally up to us.

The word "fulfill, comes from "full fill". Meaning something is partially full, but needs to completely full (full-filled).
Again, it's the only way I personally can reconcile the verses talk about our obligations, our testing, our trials,
and our overcoming.

Argument 3, before and after Salvation.
1. Once saved always saved no matter what.
2. Salvation is conditional upon only faith.
3. Salvation is conditional only upon obedience.
4. Salvation is conditional only upon works.
5. Salvation is condition upon a mixture of 2, 3 and perhaps 4 above.
6. Salvation is for everyone whether you believe in Jesus or not.

The classic argument states we aren't saved by works. Some take Eph 2:8-9; and add the word "alone" to it.
They say we are saved by Grace "alone".
Other's are equally guilty and add the word "alone" in a different spot. We are not saved by works "alone".
Finally, some say we aren't saved by works initially, (works don't help BEFORE you are saved).
But works and obedience are required AFTER you are saved.
This idea gets further divided.
1. If Jesus is in you, the works come naturally without any effort from you.
a. So if there is no evidence of works, you were never saved in the first place.
2. The works require at least some partial effort on our part.
3. No works are required at all.

Argument #4, Obedience.
1. Obedience is not required at all... because we are saved by grace alone.
2. Total absolute obedience is required.
3. We are required to do the best we can, and grace covers the rest (see a similarity to fulfillment?)

... there may be more... but these are main ones.

Most of this comes down to does salvation take any effort on our part?
The answer to that question has profound impact on the concept of OSAS.

Brother-Paul · Mar 11, 2016

amadeus2 said: ↑
Are there people here who believe Jesus and Paul were teaching a different message? I have met a few who believed we should ignore the teachings of Paul and following the teachings of Jesus only, but they were not on this forum.

B-A-C said:
They are here, trust me. However usually it's the other way around. They say we should obey Paul but ignore
the teachings of Jesus.

I understand your answer B-A-C but, I think there are those on here who believe both statements are correct, but like many others cannot acceptably explain it, so stick to one view.

Many of those who 'stick' to Paul's statement do so not to bring Glory to God but do so to suit their own beliefs for their own reasons.

That was why the thread was raised!

Welcome!

The Law or not the Law that is the question?

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