The Law or not the Law that is the question?

[amadeus2]

Greetings brother, the topic is The Law or Not the Law, is the Law relevant to Christians today?

Thank you clarifying for this 'very often these days' slow brain.

So Yes it is between the OT and the NT, it has to be as Jesus said, He has not come to abolish the Law but to fulfil it.

But, Yes it is between what Jesus said, He is Fulfilling the Law and Paul stating we are Free from the Law, as many say, the Law is not applicable to Christians today.

Not directly in the manner that people usually consider but nonetheless... For God has not changed at all at any time. What was abominable to God in the OT is still abominable to Him. What displeased God in the OT still displeases Him today. The difference for us is that we have available through the Holy Spirit a discernment that people in the OT were only rarely given. If a person really does not have the Holy Spirit working in him, he is really unable to do any better than people in the OT.

That is not the point brother, I do not believe people on here are separating what Jesus says and what Paul says, but no one yet has explained how both statements, which appear on the surface to contradict, to mean the same thing. We know and agree they both mean the same but a clear understanding of how is required, by me anyway. As mentioned previously, it really does concern me that if you talk about the Law and whether it is applicable to Christians today, some point out what Jesus says, some point out what Paul says, no one seems to explain how the two statements in God's eyes mean the same, people seem to voice one or the other and shy away from any further discussion.

People need to learn to admit their ignorance rather than reject this or that part of scripture. Just because we do not understand all of the meanings involved in the proper construction and handling of the Tabernacle in the wilderness and/or the Tabernacle built by Solomon, does not mean they should be discarded:

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Isaiah 28:10

This is OT language for what Paul says here:

"I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." I Cor 3:2

When someone really needs an explanation of something, will not God provide it, if not through you or me then through some other means or person? Remember how God provided for the Ethiopean eunuch through Philip.

I know I am not on my own in wanting to understand how these statements knit together, if someone asks me what scripture means I always aim to speak in the Truth, only quoting what scripture means, never quoting what scripture could mean. So if I am asked about whether the Law applies today I need in my heart and mind to know, without doubt, exactly what Jesus and Paul says, I obviously know what they say, we all do, but also I need t0 know how they mean the same thing. If someone says to me Jesus says He has not come to abolish the Law but fulfil it, then say but Paul says we are free from the Law, I don't want to skate around the issue, I need to know clearly and guide the enquiring soul with the Truth in the Word and explain how they both mean the same thing. I am not there yet with this one.

Yes, speak in truth even to the admission that you do not know. We should continue studying and praying, but if for whatever reason we do not know, we should never pretend that we do.

Take real situations as they come. Hypothetical situations can get us in trouble. For example consider Paul's statement here:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14

In actual situation where a believer who is considering marrying an unbeliever asks you for advice you might quote that verse, but consider Hosea...

"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD." Hosea 1:2

Sometimes what seems to be a correct answer generally may not be for the actual situation. God does not sin, so when He does something like what He did with Hosea, telling to do what many would construe as unequally yoking himself to a prostitute, we may need clarification in ourselves.

This is why we have the Holy Spirit. Hosea knew the Lord's voice and obeyed Him. We need to the do same, even if our mind says, "This cannot be right". We need to recognize the Lord's voice as opposed to other voices we may hear:

"But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.


And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:2-5

To me what Jesus said comes first.

What Paul said, I agree with because as an Apostle, called by God, he was guided by the Holy Spirit.

I do not want to be in the position where I can only quote Jesus says, or only quote Paul says, I need in my heart to quote both and understand and explain to others how both mean the same thing. All scripture is God inspired...

I have given this to the Lord in prayer, I know give it to those more learned than myself.

Perhaps a better expression to use than "learned" is "directed by the Holy Spirit". Studying the Bible is a good thing, but without the Holy Spirit the best students may make disastrous mistakes.

A number of years ago I was able to quote many verses from the Bible. Then along came memory problems as a result of personal errors on my part. God help me resolve the underlying causes, but to this day I would hesitate to try to quote even John 3:16 from memory. Things don't stick in the memory, but what God writes in my heart is another thing altogether, is it not?

 

[B-A-C]

I'm not sure about this concept of "knowing the unknowable".

OK, Bob and Joe disagree on what scripture means about something.
Bob says well... Joe you just aren't led by the Spirit to understand this. (Possibly true)
Joe say... no Bob, the God of this world has blinded your eyes so that you can't see (also possibly true).

Both claim to have discernment and leading from the Spirit to understand. ...
and yet they disagree. God is not the author of confusion. He wants us to be one in the Spirit.
..and yet they disagree.

Which comes back to scripture. Can scripture alone solve these disagreements?

 

[amadeus2]

We can go back to classic arguments of theologians through the centuries.
Argument 1, the law...

1. We are under the law, but we are free from the penalty of the law (death)
2. We are under the law, but we are no longer under the Jewish ceremonial laws (circumcision, animal sacrifice,
confession to priests, stoning offenders, etc.. )
3. We are totally not under the law at all in any way.
4. A mixture of 2 and 3 above together.
5. The law never applied to Gentiles, and only ever applied to Jews. (and since Jesus was a Jew... )

To me... #4 above makes the most sense. It's the only way I can reconcile the seeming differences between
Paul and everyone else (Peter, James, John and especially Jesus)

If I had to choose, I would also go with number 4. God did not simply have plan number 1 and plan number 2, etc. God has always, I believe, had only one plan and His plan has never failed. To understand all of His plan, we need to understand all of His Word and that is NOT found in the NT alone.

Argument 2. Fulfillment.
1. Jesus fulfulls it all and it has nothing to do with us at all.
2. Jesus fulfills the part where we come short. We should should try, but He does the rest.
3. Jesus fulfills none of it, it's totally up to us.

The word "fulfill, comes from "full fill". Meaning something is partially full, but needs to completely full (full-filled).
Again, it's the only way I personally can reconcile the verses talk about our obligations, our testing, our trials,
and our overcoming.

Yes, we have to overcome in order to be overcomers and reap the rewards described in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. We cannot overcome it all without Jesus.

Argument 3, before and after Salvation.
1. Once saved always saved no matter what.
2. Salvation is conditional upon only faith.
3. Salvation is conditional only upon obedience.
4. Salvation is conditional only upon works.
5. Salvation is condition upon a mixture of 2, 3 and perhaps 4 above.
6. Salvation is for everyone whether you believe in Jesus or not.

The classic argument states we aren't saved by works. Some take Eph 2:8-9; and add the word "alone" to it.
They say we are saved by Grace "alone".
Other's are equally guilty and add the word "alone" in a different spot. We are not saved by works "alone".
Finally, some say we aren't saved by works initially, (works don't help BEFORE you are saved).
But works and obedience are required AFTER you are saved.
This idea gets further divided.
1. If Jesus is in you, the works come naturally without any effort from you.
a. So if there is no evidence of works, you were never saved in the first place.
2. The works require at least some partial effort on our part.
3. No works are required at all.

I believe in a progressive salvation. Anyone who has once repented (according what repentance means to God) has been saved, but as we move along the highway of holiness usually more saving will be needed before we reach the end of the road. I say usually, because we must consider people in situations similar to the "good thief" on the cross. Our place in the end would be according to our final choices in spite of any wrong turns we made along the way. We do this in accord with the man who told his two sons to work in his vineyard in Matt 21:28-31. Which son was obedient in the end?

Some works are certainly required, but they must be works resulting from our faith.

Argument #4, Obedience.
1. Obedience is not required at all... because we are saved by grace alone.
2. Total absolute obedience is required.
3. We are required to do the best we can, and grace covers the rest (see a similarity to fulfillment?)

... there may be more... but these are main ones.

Most of this comes down to does salvation take any effort on our part?
The answer to that question has profound impact on the concept of OSAS.[/QUOTE]

"And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." I Sam 15:22

The Door is now open that we can obey and sacrifice, but as the above OT verse declares obedience is better than sacrifice. Even the sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf is worthless if no one obeys God. Jesus opened the Way to the Tree of Life which was closed off in Gen 3:24. The Way is open, but not anyone who decides to enter will be able to eat:

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 22:11-13

Having the proper wedding garment requires as effort on our part. We have been invited so we can go to the feast, but we must be properly attired.

Ephesians 6:13-17 briefly describes the proper attire.

 

[amadeus2]

I'm not sure about this concept of "knowing the unknowable".

OK, Bob and Joe disagree on what scripture means about something.
Bob says well... Joe you just aren't led by the Spirit to understand this. (Possibly true)
Joe say... no Bob, the God of this world has blinded your eyes so that you can't see (also possibly true).

Both claim to have discernment and leading from the Spirit to understand. ...
and yet they disagree. God is not the author of confusion. He wants us to be one in the Spirit.
..and yet they disagree.

Which comes back to scripture. Can scripture alone solve these disagreements?

No! Only God can resolve differences between believers. If both men have received the Holy Spirit, and the difference makes a difference to God, then one or both of the men are wrong. One or both of the men has followed something other than the lead of the Holy Ghost. These things have happened and likely will happen again because instead of obeying the Spirit of God in them men do quench the Spirit.

 

[RJ]

What does Jesus mean with these words?
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26[/QUOT
Thats right!......You have to be physically born by your mother and liveth before you can die.@amadeus2, you will die, hopefully at a very old age. And, since you are born again (anew), though you will eventually die your physical death you shall never die spiritually, you will live for all eternity. Those who are not born again, will eventually die spiritually as well!

If we never die, then what about us is going to change and when will it change? Is natural death even a factor?

You will change in the "blink of an eye" if you are caught up in the clouds when Christ gathers his church or, you will change when you have your physical death and then live on spiritually, eventually in your resurrected,spiritual body!

 

[RJ]

What does Jesus mean with these words?
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26[/QUOT

If we never die, then what about us is going to change and when will it change? Is natural death even a factor?

• Thats right!......You have to be physically born by your mother and liveth before you can die.@amadeus2, you will die, hopefully at a very old age. And, since you are born again (anew), though you will eventually die your physical death you shall never die spiritually, you will live for all eternity. Those who are not born again, will eventually die spiritually as well!

• You will change in the "blink of an eye" if you are caught up in the clouds when Christ gathers his church or, you will change when you have your physical death and then live on spiritually, eventually in your resurrected,spiritual body!

 

[amadeus2]

• Thats right!......You have to be physically born by your mother and liveth before you can die.@amadeus2, you will die, hopefully at a very old age. And, since you are born again (anew), though you will eventually die your physical death you shall never die spiritually, you will live for all eternity. Those who are not born again, will eventually die spiritually as well!

• You will change in the "blink of an eye" if you are caught up in the clouds when Christ gathers his church or, you will change when you have your physical death and then live on spiritually, eventually in your resurrected,spiritual body!

We may differ somewhat in our beliefs my friend, but correct beliefs alone will not save us in any case. If our hearts are right with God, we will be there with Him always. Give God the glory!

 

[Brother-Paul]

Thank you clarifying for this 'very often these days' slow brain...

People need to learn to admit their ignorance rather than reject this or that part of scripture. Just because we do not understand all of the meanings involved in the proper construction and handling of the Tabernacle in the wilderness and/or the Tabernacle built by Solomon, does not mean they should be discarded:

No one is suggesting anyone is ignorant or rejecting scripture due to lack of understanding, to the contrary, what I have said is I believe members do believe both what Paul says and what Jesus says but... below is what I said.

That is not the point brother, I do not believe people on here are separating what Jesus says and what Paul says, but no one yet has explained how both statements, which appear on the surface to contradict, to mean the same thing. We know and agree they both mean the same but a clear understanding of how is required, by me anyway. As mentioned previously, it really does concern me that if you talk about the Law and whether it is applicable to Christians today, some point out what Jesus says, some point out what Paul says, no one seems to explain how the two statements in God's eyes mean the same, people seem to voice one or the other and shy away from any further discussion.

Bless you brother.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Perhaps a better expression to use than "learned" is "directed by the Holy Spirit". Studying the Bible is a good thing, but without the Holy Spirit the best students may make disastrous mistakes.

A number of years ago I was able to quote many verses from the Bible. Then along came memory problems as a result of personal errors on my part. God help me resolve the underlying causes, but to this day I would hesitate to try to quote even John 3:16 from memory. Things don't stick in the memory, but what God writes in my heart is another thing altogether, is it not?

Not sure I can agree with that brother. The Holy Spirit guides us all as Christ lives in us but, we are all at different stages so there will always brothers and sisters more learned (or less learned) than we are. This can be due to how much we have learnt but can also be due to our age and our memory, as we get older and our memories fail to remember what they used to. I write down everything I learn (save to disc), I do it more now than ever before, as I get older and my memory fails me, I will always know I can refer back to my notes. Providing of course I can remember where I put/saved them.

Emmanuel brother... Jesus is in us... Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

I believe in a progressive salvation. Anyone who has once repented (according what repentance means to God) has been saved, but as we move along the highway of holiness usually more saving will be needed before we reach the end of the road. I say usually, because we must consider people in situations similar to the "good thief" on the cross. Our place in the end would be according to our final choices in spite of any wrong turns we made along the way. We do this in accord with the man who told his two sons to work in his vineyard in Matt 21:28-31. Which son was obedient in the end?

May I put it another way brother, I believe we are saved the moment we come to God through Jesus, repenting of all our sins and are born again. From that point we are a new creation. Salvation has come it is here at this point not progressive. What is progressive however is our faith and our knowledge, hence we are fed on milk and move progressively to meat.

Jesus loves you brother we do too.

 

[Brother-Paul]

• Thats right!......You have to be physically born by your mother and liveth before you can die.@amadeus2, you will die, hopefully at a very old age. And, since you are born again (anew), though you will eventually die your physical death you shall never die spiritually, you will live for all eternity. Those who are not born again, will eventually die spiritually as well!

• You will change in the "blink of an eye" if you are caught up in the clouds when Christ gathers his church or, you will change when you have your physical death and then live on spiritually, eventually in your resurrected,spiritual body!

We may differ somewhat in our beliefs my friend, but correct beliefs alone will not save us in any case. If our hearts are right with God, we will be there with Him always. Give God the glory!

When Jesus returns for His Bride, The Church, at the Rapture, baptised born again believers, we will be with Him in the Spirit, in Paradise, in the New Jerusalem, in Heaven.

When Jesus returns and defeats the devil, Heaven and earth will be resurrected to a new Heaven and Earth, we too will receive, as promised, resurrected bodies and be with Him forever. Eden on earth was Paradise God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve, Eden will be restored on earth, Paradise will be reclaimed, God will be with us, we will be with God forever. No sin, no pain, no suffering, no tears, except probably tears of great joy.

Give God the Glory, we are, we do, we will.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Now back to the topic I think...

The Law or not the Law that is the question?

We have shared what Jesus said, we have shared what Paul said, but the gap of understanding between the two statements remains just as wide.

Paul said we are free from the Law

Jesus said He has not come to abolish the Law but to fulfil it

Paul has his arguments for saying we are free from the Law

Jesus also has His but He further emphasised His point as He so often does. First He says...

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Then He says...
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus says 'Obey My commands'

God says 'This is my Son in whom I am well pleased 'Listen to Him'


Paul was a devout man, a very learned man, an intelligent man, he was called by Good to be an Apostle, his teaching was clear, except with this passage. He was responsible for holding together the Christian Church with so many of its doctrines, he had a hard task against the Jews who failed to accept Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah, but also against those who were teaching of false Gods. His teachings are worthy of acceptance no one can deny that.

On the other hand Jesus teaching and what He said are so clear and concise, Jesus is God's Son, He is our Saviour and our Lord, He was sent by God and has returned to God, He is intercessor of our prayers, He will return for His Church, He will come again in Glory, He will defeat the devil, He was with God in the beginning, He is with God now.

On that basis, although I accept there has to be a reason Paul said what he said, I have to do what Jesus said from the beginning, what we are all called to do, 'Follow me' He said.

How can we reject or put aside Jesus teaching, or what Jesus says, because what Paul says seems to be more acceptable.

May the Holy Spirit continue to guide our hearts and minds, may God reveal through His Spirit to us the Truth in His Word of the differences in meaning to these two statements in scripture. May we remain open minded and open to the Spirit without conflict, and in brotherly love with one another. In Jesus Name. Amen

 

[RJ]

baptised born again believers, we will be with Him in the Spirit, in Paradise, in the New Jerusalem, in Heaven.

I like every thing you say except this. IF you are in fact saying, that unless I am "water baptized", I will go to hell....that is so sad!

 

[amadeus2]

No one is suggesting anyone is ignorant or rejecting scripture due to lack of understanding, to the contrary, what I have said is I believe members do believe both what Paul says and what Jesus says but... below is what I said.

I only mentioned that some do reject rather than set aside for later some scriptures. I wasn't speaking about you or anyone on this forum. Please forgive me if you misunderstood.

That is not the point brother, I do not believe people on here are separating what Jesus says and what Paul says, but no one yet has explained how both statements, which appear on the surface to contradict, to mean the same thing. We know and agree they both mean the same but a clear understanding of how is required, by me anyway. As mentioned previously, it really does concern me that if you talk about the Law and whether it is applicable to Christians today, some point out what Jesus says, some point out what Paul says, no one seems to explain how the two statements in God's eyes mean the same, people seem to voice one or the other and shy away from any further discussion.

The answer to your question is provided by the Holy Spirit as needed. Who but God decides what is needed when? Do I have a pat answer to your question? No, as it is too general. If it were more specific I am still not sure that I would have a satisfactory answer. God, of course, does and will provide such as answer when needed to an available vessel.

 

[amadeus2]

May I put it another way brother, I believe we are saved the moment we come to God through Jesus, repenting of all our sins and are born again. From that point we are a new creation. Salvation has come it is here at this point not progressive. What is progressive however is our faith and our knowledge, hence we are fed on milk and move progressively to meat.

Jesus loves you brother we do too.

Don't wish to run off on another tangent, but I believe that the "old man" Paul speaks about is alive in each believer until he has been completely killed by the "new or inner man". Surrendering to the old man's desires rather than obeying the Holy Spirit is why we still commit sins after meeting the Master. Until we have completely killed that "old man" and his ways have been changed completely to God's Way, we will not have overcome the evil of our own sinfully directed world and we will not be overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer. The Way has been opened and the tools and help required has all been made available to whosoever will. Never mind responding to this as it is moving away from your topic, but I felt obliged to reply.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@RJ
You are correct brother and it is amazing how often the small words can mean so much 'IF'

We Must be Born Again. :thumbsup: I wouldn't wish anyone to go to Hell, even God doesn't want one soul to be lost!

We could do with an emoticon with both hands in the air. Praising God of course.

I am just singing his praises brother :laugh: my wife says, you call that singing. My best singing comes from the heart not the mouth :thumbsup:

 

[Brother-Paul]

I only mentioned that some do reject rather than set aside for later some scriptures. I wasn't speaking about you or anyone on this forum. Please forgive me if you misunderstood.

Some do brother, some do, we cannot deny that. I know you didn't mean me, sorry if I led you to think that and there is nothing here to ask forgiveness for. Bless you

The answer to your question is provided by the Holy Spirit as needed. Who but God decides what is needed when? Do I have a pat answer to your question? No, as it is too general. If it were more specific I am still not sure that I would have a satisfactory answer. God, of course, does and will provide such as answer when needed to an available vessel.

Two Thousand years after Christ and no one has asked the question or if they have the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed the Truth, in these scriptures regarding a subject so deeply discussed as the Law?

I remain open minded but, until the truth is revealed in Paul's statement I have to do what Jesus said, 'Follow me', and what God said 'This is my son in which I am well pleased, Listen to Him'

I cannot accept Paul's statement as it appears to say, but do accept it is no doubt meant to knit together 'with our Lord's commands'.

 

[amadeus2]

What the apostle Paul said was this:

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

This should hold true for following after any man other than the Lord. Did Paul make mistakes? Undoubtedly as he was flesh as we are flesh. Did he admit to his errors in his writings? Certainly so with regard to his efforts before meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus. Perhaps Paul doesn't admit to the error on his part in the conflict that caused him and Barnabas to separate, but it seems likely that both of them were in error in a measure.

As to the teachings of Jesus always agreeing with the teachings of Paul, I see them as I agreeing in my experience. If you're looking for some blanket statement which clearly shows that the teachings of the one always agree with the teachings of the other, you are likely to have quite a task before you. An easier way might be to look at any issues where someone says they are in conflict and proceed from there. Is it likely to a short answer?

What Jesus said was this:

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matt 11:28

 

[Brother-Paul]

On topic

What Jesus said was...

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Then He says...
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Plus as B-A-C quoted earlier

We are told over a dozen times in the New testament to keep the commandments.

Matt 5:19; Matt 19:17; John 14:15; John 14:21; John 15:10; 1 Cor 7:19; 1 Jn 2:3-4
1 Jn 3:22-24; 1 Jn 5:3; Rev 12:17; Rev 14:12;

 

[RJ]

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Yes, his commandments are very important and the law will never pass away. If I may, i have a few questions:

• Once we are no longer in this realm but all together in God's spiritual realm, will his commandments or the law still be with us?
• But, right now, in this physical realm that we all live in, do you keep his commandments or the law?
• If you do keep commandments or law, do you do keep them without hesitation or flaw, 24/7...perfectly?