Curtis said:

Jesus called angels "holy"

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

I would say nothing unholy can dwell in God's presence.

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I would agree. This does not mean they are perfect. They disobey and are still holy. Still sanctified.

We are holy. We are sanctified. We are new creations. We are far from perfect. Dejavu? :wink:

Sue D. said:

So -- being one of His elect simply means that at some point in our life Here, that we Would accept Him. Only He knows when. No one else does.

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I don't believe He knows this. Many come to this conclusion from grasping the dictionary definition of omniscience. This does not mean we can now grasp God. Can anyone state a single truth on how He came to be? We cannot grasp God. We must not define Him outside of scripture. God is who He is. A good God would simply not do / know such. He would limit Himself to uphold who He is. Just because God can know and do something does not mean He does. Calvinists quote Rom 9 as evidence of God making many unto dishonor from a lump of dishonor, as He is God, He can do whatever He wants. The rest of scripture however tells us that He does not do this. So my advice to all who think like this is to look at where the evidence points. Does earth and all that has transpired with the Jews and Jesus point to God knowing from birth whom will be with Him? If that was true why go through all the motions of earth? All the evidence points to all mankind having 100% true free will.

God is omniscient + God is good. He is as good as He is great. The message we have heard from the beginning is that God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. To even hint at anything to the contrary, is to introduce a destructive heresy.

Sue D. said:

I'd tried to point out that Mr. Calvin and Mr. Armenius were only men who had their opinions about Scripture and they started a 'discussion' that has never ended. Personally, I don't like labels. My only real 'label' is that of being conservative Baptist. I like finding out what people actually believe as a person. And a born-again believer.

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Agreed. I studied a bit on Arminianism. It only exists because of Calvinism. Calvinistic thought has existed from day 1. Calvin just labelled it. Just as evolutionary thought has existed long before Darwin. I don't care if any disagree on Rom 14:5 issues. But when people start insinuating that my God who lay His life down for all mankind has even 1% darkness, it is not a Rom 14:5 disagreement. It is a destructive heresy. Work of the devil. We need to always ask, what would Jesus do, what would a good God do? A good God would never cherry pick people for heaven / create people to suffer in hell.

Sue D. said:

On to the world of Angels. I found an article "What about Satan and the fallen angels"

The subject of Lucifer. Back up to your #27 post. About Lucifers exceptional commitment to God. I read that he was jeolous of God. God created him as his -right-hand man. God gave him his beauty.

Look at Isaiah 14:12 - 15. All those "I Will's of Lucifer. He was referred to as "O Morning Star."

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Yes he became full of himself. I was thinking recently about how evil lucifer is. He knew God. He knew God was good, loving, kind, gentle, caring. Yet he did not hesitate to orchestrate a terrible beating and crucifixion. Anyone who thinks he is cool is truly deluded. He is such a wicked being. God has only been nice to him from day 1. He has not even got respect for God as his creator.

KingJ said:

I would agree. This does not mean they are perfect. They disobey and are still holy. Still sanctified.

We are holy. We are sanctified. We are new creations. We are far from perfect. Dejavu? :wink:

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Lucifer was "perfect" when he was created, until "iniquity" was found in him. I believe angels are perfect, and when 1/3 of them sinned along with Lucifer, they were all cast into hell awaiting the judgement day.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

KingJ said:

We are holy. We are sanctified. We are new creations. We are far from perfect. Dejavu?

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There is a difference between being in Christ, and Christ being in us. Being in Christ we are perfect without sin as there is no darkness or sin in God who is light.
With Christ being in us we still have a carnal sinful body that needs to be kept under by the Holy Spirit. As a believer with Christ in us we are becoming (growing into, transforming) into what we already are in Christ!

KingJ said:

I don't believe He knows this. Many come to this conclusion from grasping the dictionary definition of omniscience. This does not mean we can now grasp God. Can anyone state a single truth on how He came to be? We cannot grasp God. We must not define Him outside of scripture. God is who He is. A good God would simply not do / know such. He would limit Himself to uphold who He is. Just because God can know and do something does not mean He does. Calvinists quote Rom 9 as evidence of God making many unto dishonor from a lump of dishonor, as He is God, He can do whatever He wants. The rest of scripture however tells us that He does not do this. So my advice to all who think like this is to look at where the evidence points. Does earth and all that has transpired with the Jews and Jesus point to God knowing from birth whom will be with Him? If that was true why go through all the motions of earth? All the evidence points to all mankind having 100% true free will.

God is omniscient + God is good. He is as good as He is great. The message we have heard from the beginning is that God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. To even hint at anything to the contrary, is to introduce a destructive heresy.

Agreed. I studied a bit on Arminianism. It only exists because of Calvinism. Calvinistic thought has existed from day 1. Calvin just labelled it. Just as evolutionary thought has existed long before Darwin. I don't care if any disagree on Rom 14:5 issues. But when people start insinuating that my God who lay His life down for all mankind has even 1% darkness, it is not a Rom 14:5 disagreement. It is a destructive heresy. Work of the devil. We need to always ask, what would Jesus do, what would a good God do? A good God would never cherry pick people for heaven / create people to suffer in hell.

Yes he became full of himself. I was thinking recently about how evil lucifer is. He knew God. He knew God was good, loving, kind, gentle, caring. Yet he did not hesitate to orchestrate a terrible beating and crucifixion. Anyone who thinks he is cool is truly deluded. He is such a wicked being. God has only been nice to him from day 1. He has not even got respect for God as his creator.

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You're suggesting that satan / Lucifer caused Jesus Christ to be beaten and crucified? Jesus Christ came into this world with the purpose of showing mankind that there was something / someone More existing -- the many miracles' He performed AND for the purpose of going to the cross and dying for mankind And rising bodily from the dead. He took the sins of the world upon Himself -- died with them -- went to hell with them -- in our place -- brought the O.T. saints back up with Him and rose again. He became for us the Perfect Lamb of God. No more animal sacrifices needed.

Aren't omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence all attributes of God?!

the very hairs of our heads are numbered -- for one thing.

Romans 14:5 is about the day of the week a person worships on. Simply Do take time during the week To worship God. Joining with those of similar belief and practice. Just Don't associate That with doing a 'good work' to help gain your salvation.

We DO know that "in the beginning God created......" He's Always existed. And nothing exists without God's having it exist. We don't have to understand it to believe it. Kind of like gravity. I certainly don't Understand it -- but I Also Know it exists. I see the affects of gravity frequently.

I've been learning / reviewing about angels -- the angelic realm of beings. Had found a really good article but it wouldn't print. So - Then I remembered I've got two books that have sections about angels -- a Systematic Theology book and study guide to the Bible.

Palms 148 :2, 5. and Colosians 1:16

Lots and Lots about angels. It's Also been commented that a person doesn't usually hear sermons On angels. And maybe that's true because they are not the main focus of Scripture.

Curtis said:

Lucifer was "perfect" when he was created, until "iniquity" was found in him. I believe angels are perfect, and when 1/3 of them sinned along with Lucifer, they were all cast into hell awaiting the judgement day.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

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God is impartial Acts 10:34. So what did Lucifer do that the other angels did not do in order to be promoted? If all angels are holy and perfect, why are there ranks?

If Lucifer was perfect, why does Jesus say only God is good in Mark 10:18?

The context of perfect in your verse is acceptable. Lucifer was acceptable to God until the depth of wickedness he gave into, this was something God could not tolerate. This was a depth of evil that would not / did not hesitate to beat and crucify Jesus. There are perhaps a million other options he could have chosen. He could have chosen to just argue with Jesus. He could have chosen to just punch the wall next to Jesus in frustration. No. He sunk to a significant depth of evil intent. This depth is what God saw in heaven that prompted Him to remove him from heaven. This was iniquity that was no longer acceptable.

We need to use some lateral thought and Christian common sense. Else we just keep pushing destructive heresies. Not suggesting you are. I think it is fine to have the belief that angels and us will be perfect in heaven. It is just nonsensical though when you think for a while on free will and a good God. As I said earlier, what is free will if you cannot disobey?

Curtis said:

There is a difference between being in Christ, and Christ being in us. Being in Christ we are perfect without sin as there is no darkness or sin in God who is light.
With Christ being in us we still have a carnal sinful body that needs to be kept under by the Holy Spirit. As a believer with Christ in us we are becoming (growing into, transforming) into what we already are in Christ!

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I don't fully agree. Jesus is our advocate with the Father because we need one 1 John 2:1. We are forever sanctified and covered by the blood of Jesus. We are ''never'' perfect without Jesus. If it was possible for a creation to be perfect as God is perfect, we would not need Jesus.

A highly intelligent creation + Jesus / the cross was always God's plan for us. As we have covered many times, Jesus was planned before the foundations of the world 1 Pet 1:20. Jesus pays our ransom. Jesus is our ransom. Jesus is our advocate. For ''all'' eternity. As, only God is perfectly good.

Mark 10:18 is one verse that really does need to sink in to all our minds. It cures vanity instantly. Consider all the Christians today who think they are something special. They are God's man of the hour. They have powers to raise the dead. They are perfect. They are wonderful. They are demigods. These type of Christians exist! Vanity is at their core.

We will be acceptable to God in heaven because we are covered by the blood of Jesus. Jesus covers us because we chose Him / open the door and let Him in / made Him Lord of our lives. Sinking to a depth of intent in wanting Him over not wanting Him. 'Wanting Him' is of course aligned with a hatred of what is evil Rom 12:9. As hating what is evil and clinging to what is good, is genuine love for God. If anyone loves God they repent of their sins and work out their salvation in fear and trembling. They never ever ever ever ever touch or suggest they are in the slightest perfect. We strive to be after God's heart. When scripture says be perfect as God is perfect. That is a state of mind He wants us in. He wants us to actively repent, actively consider the needy, actively keep ourselves unblemished. A striving to perfection. The only thing that changes in heaven is our success rate goes from 51% + to 99%. Only God is 100%. Must God say we must be 49% -. Of course not. That is why scripture says ''be perfect as He is perfect' Matt 5:48.

Example: If I am able to take a bullet for you / lay my life down for you. I should be welcome in your house for all eternity surely. I will be perfect to you for all eternity surely. If I was able to do you significant harm, then you will know I took that bullet by accident. We are forever perfect to God in Jesus because of our decision to accept Jesus. This was not a Mickey Mouse decision. It was one at a depth of intent. One that God judged worthy of grafting us in to His family. This is why it is so important to grasp and properly teach the born again experience.

KingJ said:

God is impartial Acts 10:34. So what did Lucifer do that the other angels did not do in order to be promoted?

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I don't see anywhere in scripture where Lucifer was "promoted". The problem was Lucifer wanted to promote himself to be like God. That was his downfall.

KingJ said:

If Lucifer was perfect, why does Jesus say only God is good in Mark 10:18?

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At that time there was no one good on earth except for God. Jesus was not referring to those in heaven, certainly angels are good or they would not be there.

Curtis said:

I don't see anywhere in scripture where Lucifer was "promoted". The problem was Lucifer wanted to promote himself to be like God. That was his downfall.

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You are not thinking rationally. Did God create me to be an accountant or did I choose that path? I chose that path. Angels are a little above us. There is absolutely no such thing as God over riding their free will. The devil had a choice to not be the covering cherub. To suggest he did not, is to suggest God is evil. As no free will cannot ever be defended as evidence of a good God.

KingJ said:

This and was a depth of evil that would not / did not hesitate to beat and crucify Jesus. There are perhaps a million other options he could have chosen. He could have chosen to just argue with Jesus. He could have chosen to just punch the wall next to Jesus in frustration.

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The Devil is predicable as he always has the same MO, to kill, steal, and to destroy. The devil did not kill Jesus he laid down his life so that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death, and to destroy the works of the devil.

Curtis said:

At that time there was no one good on earth except for God. Jesus was not referring to those in heaven, certainly angels are good or they would not be there.

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You are not considering 1. free will, 2 God being good and 3. intelligence levels of angels.

Do you force your wife to do exactly as you want and desire? Of course not. But your wife is always your wife because you both got married. You both got married because you both loved each other at a depth of intent. You will always see your wife through the ring on her finger. Despite how difficult she can be :wink:.

When the angels were cast out, I believe that was the 'judgement day' of sort for all angels. Depths of intent and commitment were made clear.

I choose to believe that angels can disobey God and still not be kicked out of heaven. Because that is part and parcel of free will and free will is part and parcel of a good God.

When anyone does not believe this. They need to explain free will in heaven. They need to explain how they treat their loved ones.

When we consider heaven, a vastly unknown future event, we need to look at it through who God is according to all of scripture. Not isolate some verse and focus on the word 'perfect'.

KingJ said:

We are ''never'' perfect without Jesus. If it was possible for a creation to be perfect as God is perfect, we would not need Jesus.

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Jesus was made to be sin who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. In other words Jesus is our righteousness.

KingJ said:

Did God create me to be an accountant or did I choose that path?

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You choose your own path, but God knew what path you would choose.

KingJ said:

The devil had a choice to not be the covering cherub.

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Lucifer had no problem being the anointed cherub that covereth, but he wanted to be more than what he was created for.

KingJ said:

You are not considering 1. free will, 2 God being good and 3. intelligence levels of angels.

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Does God have free will? Of course he does, but does Jesus want to be the Father, or does the Holy Spirit want to be Jesus? Even within the God head there is order. Angels are not humans. They were not given the choice what they wanted to be when they grow up. They were created for a purpose, and as long as they fulfill their purpose they will stay in that position.

Sue D. said:

You're suggesting that satan / Lucifer caused Jesus Christ to be beaten and crucified? Jesus Christ came into this world with the purpose of showing mankind that there was something / someone More existing -- the many miracles' He performed AND for the purpose of going to the cross and dying for mankind And rising bodily from the dead. He took the sins of the world upon Himself -- died with them -- went to hell with them -- in our place -- brought the O.T. saints back up with Him and rose again. He became for us the Perfect Lamb of God. No more animal sacrifices needed.

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Jesus came as a lamb to the slaughter. The devil took full advantage of that. All saw without any doubt the depth of his evil.

Sue D. said:

Aren't omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence all attributes of God?!

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Yes, but they are only a few attributes of God.

Example: There is a guy that likes my sister. He is fat, ugly and smokes. He is also kind, caring and helps out at a soup kitchen. If all my sister hears from me is that he is a fat, ugly slob who smokes.....she will assume he has attitude, doesn't love himself or others....etc etc.

What I do not want readers to do is make assumptions off of God's omniscience! We are in error in representing God to the unsaved if we do this! God will not be impressed with us when we get to heaven. I can promise you that.

Sue D. said:

Romans 14:5 is about the day of the week a person worships on. Simply Do take time during the week To worship God. Joining with those of similar belief and practice. Just Don't associate That with doing a 'good work' to help gain your salvation.

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You are reading literally. Rom 14:5 refers to trivial matters.

Sue D. said:

We DO know that "in the beginning God created......" He's Always existed. And nothing exists without God's having it exist. We don't have to understand it to believe it. Kind of like gravity. I certainly don't Understand it -- but I Also Know it exists. I see the affects of gravity frequently.

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I asked how it is that God exists. When Calvinists make the statement that God must cherry pick people because He is omniscient they are proposing to grasp 'how God is' from these attributes. When we have .....the cross....to grasp who God is. The cross shouts love at us. Now we focus on omniscience = no free will = cherry picked people for heaven etc etc. Terrible terrible representation of Jesus and God. The cross is evidence of true free will. Of true love. Of a truly good God.

KingJ said:

There is absolutely no such thing as God over riding their free will.

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Angles can rebel if they want to. God will not stop there free will choice, but they will suffer the consequences of their own actions as did Lucifer, and all that followed him.

Curtis said:

Jesus was made to be sin who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. In other words Jesus is our righteousness.

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And Jesus is our advocate. He is our covering. So that when we disobey, 'sin' it does not result in sin unto death.

We are humans. We may lose our flesh, but we remain the human race. We do not all get on with each other. A sweet church environment is certainly better then the world's dog eat dog. But it is not always 'perfect'. There will always be annoying people. People you don't want to live next to. People who do more for God and get promoted above you and I. People whom Jesus may need to spend more time with.

Remember that there will be many that get into heaven by the skin of their teeth 1 Pet 4:18. Granted the entry into heaven is being sold out to Jesus. So they are not any less deserving. But not all.....like / love Jesus as much as others. It is just the way it is. This will ''not'' change in heaven. God does not ever force people to be someone they are not.