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An hour then your thoughts

I do find it interesting that just about everyone who believes in OSAS (even here on TJ) also are the same ones
who argue we can never be sinless or perfect.

Is sin meaningless after you get saved? They say you "shouldn't" sin. But there are no consequences if you "do" sin.
"After all you can't lose your salvation"

If I can't lose my salvation, why is sin even relevant?

OSAS is true BAC, I pray for the day you grasp that :wink:.

Sin is still relevant because no person can claim OSAS from their perspective. OSAS can only be grasped by God. He is able to search the depths of hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11. He cast the devil out for eternity. He can graft us in for eternity. He does not make mistakes. Any non - OSAS belief has to assume God can make a mistake of grafting a devil into His family.

Many assume they are saved. Anyone who believes in OSAS yet continues in a mortal sin is not saved and was never saved. It is like espousing someone who just took a bullet for you is now also capable of repeatedly raping your wife. It does not add up. They must have taken that bullet by mistake.

So, many OSAS believers remain aware for their sins I would say for two reasons. 1. Ensure their hearts ''HATE'' sin Rom 7:15. They are quick to repent. This is evidence of a new heart. 2. We know that God hates sin. So, if we claim to love Him, we will be aware of those things that upset Him. Hating sin / what is wicked is evidence of genuine love for God Rom 12:9. IE Hating sin is part of a love relationship with God.
 
Genesis 22:12
He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”

I do not agree with him saying God does not know everything because of this one line in scripture, first off it was a angel that said this, not God. Second ,off God does know everything anyone who thinks he does not makes me very suspicious
_________________________________________________________________________

Why can't both lines be true? God knows everything there is to be known and everything that can be known + God does not know what is not to be known even though He can know it if He wants to.

Example: I can read the diary of my wife in my house. Do I?

God says He is good. David even tells us to give thanks ''because'' He is good Psalm 136:1. If I read my wife's diary, would she think I am good?

The dictionary definition of words do not define God. God is, who He is. All scripture, put together.
 
I wonder... what your opinion of angels is? It may seem like an odd question, but...

Was Satan always a "bad angel"?
All angels sin. Only God is perfect Mark 10:18. Jesus is clear that he has been sinning since the beginning 1 John 3:8. He then committed a sin that got Him cast out of heaven.

IIf the answer is no, did he have the free will to become a bad angel?
Yes. 100% Free will. We know this because God promoted him.

So, if we argue that he did not have free will / truly impress God which resulted in his promotion. Then we make all believe God is evil. God set him up for a fall with the promotion.

If the answer is yes, do people have this same free will?
Yes. Any good person would give their children free will. Likewise a good God who wants us to know Him as our Father, will. No free will is wicked. We cannot state 'no free will' and then leave people to grasp the obvious. As though we are too lazy to read all scripture and properly define God. We need to grasp free will in light of all scriptures definition's of God.

Even if they are already in the heavenly kingdom like Satan was.
..or like Adam presumably was... before his "free will" decision separated him from God.

The Bible seems to separate "works of the law", from just things we call "works".
Is obedience to God, a work? Is obeying the commandment a "work"?

If I claim to be saved.... can I live a homosexual lifestyle? Maybe I didn't even do this before I was
saved. Can I commit adultery now? Can I molest children now? Can I kill people now?

Even the demons believe in Jesus... what makes me different?
Demons chose to follow what is evil from a depth of intent. As did the devil. They chose separation. They knew their decision would result in separation. They did not want to stay in the light anymore.

Humans in continuous unrepentant sin are daily getting closer to that same level of intent those fallen angels had.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask God, and he shall give him life that is, unto those that do not sin unto death. There is sin unto death, for which I do not say that you should pray.
 
Why can't both lines be true? God knows everything there is to be known and everything that can be known + God does not know what is not to be known even though He can know it if He wants to.

that is certainly something that never came to my mind and very interesting, thanks for sharing brother
 
All angels sin. Only God is perfect Mark 10:18. Jesus is clear that he has been sinning since the beginning 1 John 3:8. He then committed a sin that got Him cast out of heaven.

Yes. 100% Free will. We know this because God promoted him.

So, if we argue that he did not have free will / truly impress God which resulted in his promotion. Then we make all believe God is evil. God set him up for a fall with the promotion.

Yes. Any good person would give their children free will. Likewise a good God who wants us to know Him as our Father, will. No free will is wicked. We cannot state 'no free will' and then leave people to grasp the obvious. As though we are too lazy to read all scripture and properly define God. We need to grasp free will in light of all scriptures definition's of God.

Demons chose to follow what is evil from a depth of intent. As did the devil. They chose separation. They knew their decision would result in separation. They did not want to stay in the light anymore.

Humans in continuous unrepentant sin are daily getting closer to that same level of intent those fallen angels had.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask God, and he shall give him life that is, unto those that do not sin unto death. There is sin unto death, for which I do not say that you should pray.


Your post started out with you saying that 'all angels sin' -- that only God is perfect. You're correct in that Only God IS perfect.

I'm wondering Why you say that 'All' angels sin. Scripture tells us that about 1/3 of them were kicked out of heaven along with Lucifer because they followed Lucifer's rebellion. It created a war in heaven. Which is why Lucifer became satan.

Are you talking about Jesus Christ or Lucifer

When did God promote him, Lucifer? God had created Lucifer as the most beautiful angel in existence. He'd been God's right-hand-man so to speak. The only status Lucifer could have been given as a 'promotion' would to be as God, Himself. That was Lucifer's Downfall. He wasn't satisfied with being 2nd -- he wanted it All. Apparently his beauty made him proud.

Angels were created with various jobs / roles. Some being guardian angels -- some messenger angels -- seriphim -- arch angels. Etc.

Human beings are a separate creative 'act' than that of angels. We are a little Lower than the angels.

What do you mean by "humans in continuous unrepentant sin are daily getting closer to that same level of intent those fallen angels had. The 'level of intent'? Human beings do not become angels when they die.
 
Man might have been made lower than the angels in strength, and in abilities, but once God "crowned" man with Glory and honor, and set man over the works of his hands (which included angels), that set man above the angels.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
 
Your post started out with you saying that 'all angels sin' -- that only God is perfect. You're correct in that Only God IS perfect.

I'm wondering Why you say that 'All' angels sin. Scripture tells us that about 1/3 of them were kicked out of heaven along with Lucifer because they followed Lucifer's rebellion. It created a war in heaven. Which is why Lucifer became satan.
If only God is perfectly good, why is it that angels are not?

You, me, we all need to chew on this free will reality with a good God. We assume a lot. There is no such thing as a perfect angel, because all angels have faults. Now these faults are not pimples or warts.

I guess if we got technical we could argue that angels disobedience is not sin. The only disobedience that resulted in sin unto death was the decision by the devil to be a god and the decision taken by those third to follow him.

When did God promote him, Lucifer? God had created Lucifer as the most beautiful angel in existence. He'd been God's right-hand-man so to speak. The only status Lucifer could have been given as a 'promotion' would to be as God, Himself. That was Lucifer's Downfall. He wasn't satisfied with being 2nd -- he wanted it All. Apparently his beauty made him proud.
God is impartial. He did not make Lucifer more attractive. Lucifer became more attractive or was made so due to his exceptional commitment to God.

We arrive at the truth by starting with a true definition of God not vice versa. God is impartial = Lucifer was promoted. Lucifer was made more beautiful = God is partial. Partiality is evil. God is not evil.

Angels were created with various jobs / roles. Some being guardian angels -- some messenger angels -- seriphim -- arch angels. Etc.
Angels were given different jobs. A sign of what is to come for us I guess. Did God make us do what we are doing as a career right now? As you said, we are created '''a little beneath'' the angels. Not far beneath. Think on that a while. They are not much different. We have a lot in common with them. Scripture could have said 1. Beneath, 2 Far beneath. But it said 3. Little beneath. We must not ignore that 'little'. It was inserted for a reason.

What do you mean by "humans in continuous unrepentant sin are daily getting closer to that same level of intent those fallen angels had. The 'level of intent'?
Humans and angels are thrown into the same lake of fire. Humans can reach the same level of wickedness as angels. Now we need to think a bit on God's decision to cast the angels out. Our patient and long suffering God, cast them out in an instant. Surely that speaks to a level of intent? God does not make mistakes. Everyone going to hell is beyond hope. When we continue in unrepentant sin, God and us become fully aware of our hatred of what is good. Our intentions become clearer everyday that passes.
 
2Pet 2:4 For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. (NLT)
 
If only God is perfectly good, why is it that angels are not?

You, me, we all need to chew on this free will reality with a good God. We assume a lot. There is no such thing as a perfect angel, because all angels have faults. Now these faults are not pimples or warts.

I guess if we got technical we could argue that angels disobedience is not sin. The only disobedience that resulted in sin unto death was the decision by the devil to be a god and the decision taken by those third to follow him.

God is impartial. He did not make Lucifer more attractive. Lucifer became more attractive or was made so due to his exceptional commitment to God.

We arrive at the truth by starting with a true definition of God not vice versa. God is impartial = Lucifer was promoted. Lucifer was made more beautiful = God is partial. Partiality is evil. God is not evil.

Angels were given different jobs. A sign of what is to come for us I guess. Did God make us do what we are doing as a career right now? As you said, we are created '''a little beneath'' the angels. Not far beneath. Think on that a while. They are not much different. We have a lot in common with them. Scripture could have said 1. Beneath, 2 Far beneath. But it said 3. Little beneath. We must not ignore that 'little'. It was inserted for a reason.

Humans and angels are thrown into the same lake of fire. Humans can reach the same level of wickedness as angels. Now we need to think a bit on God's decision to cast the angels out. Our patient and long suffering God, cast them out in an instant. Surely that speaks to a level of intent? God does not make mistakes. Everyone going to hell is beyond hope. When we continue in unrepentant sin, God and us become fully aware of our hatred of what is good. Our intentions become clearer everyday that passes.



God created Everything -- He is Almighty God. He created everything that has been created. And, yes, Only God is perfect / holy.

The nature Of angels / angelic beings. Scripture tells us they do exist. They apparently existed before we were created. Otherwise Lucifer would not have had the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve in. They are part of the spirit world.

Your comments about free will -- sounds like you are a Calvinist?

Where is your Scriptural basis for angels having faults. For Any of the comments you are making.

Angels are on a higher basis than people. They are in heaven -- we are here on earth. They are capable of going back and forth between heaven and earth. On the other hand, we don't do that. We are earthly people.

What do we have in common with angels?

God has All knowledge -- omniscient.

Where do you get your information about angels.
 
No at all :wink:. What comment by me makes you think that?

Mark 10:18

As to your other comments, please quote me.


Mark 10:18 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good-- except God alone." Jesus is talking to the rich young ruler -- he asked Jesus "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

Angels and having faults?! No connection that I can see with that passage.

Your comment about angels / people having free will or not. Sounded a conversation / comment that a Calvinist might make.

Your comments regarding angels got me doing a lot of researching last night.

Will continue this later. I help with a free lunch program for area kids through FBC.
 
Your comment about angels / people having free will or not. Sounded a conversation / comment that a Calvinist might make.

This debate could almost be humorous. Two 3 points Calvinists arguing that neither of them is Calvinist.

Calvinism - Wikipedia

It seems neither of you believe in "unconditional election" (predestination).
(Which kind of goes along with limited atonement)

But you both believe is OSAS, (perseverance of the saints)
It seems you both believe in total depravity also.
 
Mark 10:18 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good except God alone."

Angels and having faults?! No connection that I can see with that passage.
Does Jesus say 'no one is good except for God and angels'? He says 'God' and 'God alone'. He is making the point that only God is perfectly good. He could not be clearer. Is He beating around the bush?

I want to make an issue of this because it is a fact that really does need to sink in to all our minds.

Your comment about angels / people having free will or not. Sounded a conversation / comment that a Calvinist might make.
I said angels have true free will. I said God gives true free will because He is good. It could not be more anti Calvinistic. Calvinists do not believe in true free will in being able to choose or reject God and having that decision affect our eternal home.

Will continue this later. I help with a free lunch program for area kids through FBC.
That sounds like fun.
 
This debate could almost be humorous. Two 3 points Calvinists arguing that neither of them is Calvinist.

Calvinism - Wikipedia

It seems neither of you believe in "unconditional election" (predestination).
(Which kind of goes along with limited atonement)

But you both believe is OSAS, (perseverance of the saints)
It seems you both believe in total depravity also.
It is really only 5 point Calvinists that are in extreme error / espouse a wicked God.

Nobody on this planet can keep face or truly successfully defend partiality, cherry picking, racism and torture as evidence of 'good'.

Some faith teachers, Calvinists and those teaching a cruel hell all fall / fail completely on this. Destructive heresies in Christianity. I am sure this would make for an interesting discussion.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

How many of us are false teachers introducing destructive heresies without knowing better? Surely if we espouse anything that suggests / hints at God being wicked we should in fear and trembling cross examine what we are stating.
 
2Pet 2:4 For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. (NLT)
We need to discuss the parameters of disobedience becoming sin. Surely there must be space to exercise free will and what is free will if we only obey?
 
We need to discuss the parameters of disobedience becoming sin. Surely there must be space to exercise free will and what is free will if we only obey?

The Kingdom of God is surrounded by a wall. All those within it's walls have free will to do anything they want as long as it is within laws of faith. What ever is not of faith is a sin. Everyone living outside those walls do anything they want that is not of faith which is sin.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
 
It is really only 5 point Calvinists that are in extreme error / espouse a wicked God.

Nobody on this planet can keep face or truly successfully defend partiality, cherry picking, racism and torture as evidence of 'good'.

Some faith teachers, Calvinists and those teaching a cruel hell all fall / fail completely on this. Destructive heresies in Christianity. I am sure this would make for an interesting discussion.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

How many of us are false teachers introducing destructive heresies without knowing better? Surely if we espouse anything that suggests / hints at God being wicked we should in fear and trembling cross examine what we are stating.


The only reason I brought up Calvinism is because I used to be on a forum that turned out to be 5- pt Calvinistic. Lots of discussions on various aspects Of. The comment about having 'true free will' brought forth some memories -- I was bumped out of there a while back.

There are those who believe that we are all simply God's puppets. What Is true is that God Does know everything that has and will happen. Omniscience? All knowledge. God Does have His 'elect'. We don't know who those people are. So we share the Gospel unto salvation with everyone in our realm of living who is willing to listen. We Don't force feed Scripture to anyone. God won't 'save' anyone by mistake. And He won't 'loose' anyone in any interior African village.

I've been researching satan and the fallen angels as well as the angelic realm of creation.

One of my questians to you would be -- what do you mean by True free will. What free will Really Is. My understanding is that we have 'free will' as far as When we do accept Christ as personal Savior. God knew from the beginning that I would resist the convicting power of the Holy Spirit for quite a while. I grew up in a conservative Baptist church. I'd heard Bible since 'forever'. But I had to go from a head knowledge to heart acceptance. So -- being one of His elect simply means that at some point in our life Here, that we Would accept Him. Only He knows when. No one else does. Other's believe that I don't even have the choice as to 'when will I brush my teeth. I Might end up putting that off because I'd have intention of brushing them Now and get side=tracked to something else in the living room on the way To the bathroom. There Are instances in the Old Testament when God Was intent on destroying a place and relented.

If you Really want to have 'an interesting discussion' on Calvinism -- it won't be with me :)

Talking about the angelic realm is interesting enough. There Are those who worship angels -- and we're told Not to.

I think you're referring to 'hyper-Calvinists'. My husband graduated from a 5-pt Calvinist Bible college and seminary. And he's only about a 3-pter. That was almost 50 yrs. ago. He was told that if he went to those colleges and seminary that he could get into the Air Force Chaplaincy program. Turned out that That wasn't exactly accurate. The system has changed a bunch since then.

I'd tried to point out that Mr. Calvin and Mr. Armenius were only men who had their opinions about Scripture and they started a 'discussion' that has never ended. Personally, I don't like labels. My only real 'label' is that of being conservative Baptist. I like finding out what people actually believe as a person. And a born-again believer.

On to the world of Angels. I found an article "What about Satan and the fallen angels"

The subject of Lucifer. Back up to your #27 post. About Lucifers exceptional commitment to God. I read that he was jeolous of God. God created him as his -right-hand man. God gave him his beauty.

Look at Isaiah 14:12 - 15. All those "I Will's of Lucifer. He was referred to as "O Morning Star."
 
Does Jesus say 'no one is good except for God and angels'? He says 'God' and 'God alone'. He is making the point that only God is perfectly good. He could not be clearer. Is He beating around the bush?
Jesus called angels "holy"

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

I would say nothing unholy can dwell in God's presence.
 
Greetings,

This debate could almost be humorous. Two 3 points Calvinists arguing that neither of them is Calvinist.

Calvinism - Wikipedia

It seems neither of you believe in "unconditional election" (predestination).
(Which kind of goes along with limited atonement)

But you both believe is OSAS, (perseverance of the saints)
It seems you both believe in total depravity also.

if it wasn't sick it could be humorous,

thank you for pointing that out, but not sure anyone took any notice.


Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings,

I do not agree with him saying God does not know everything because of this one line in scripture, ....God does know everything anyone who thinks he does not makes me very suspicious

yes, Dave. it may be that the speaker was off on that point. Often i tend to throw the whole bath-tub out if i hear something like that so i hear what you are saying.

My take on it is that it may well be that the 'now i know' part is about the effect of Abraham's obedience bringing Abraham into an intimate place with God?
David prayed,
Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Psalm 139:23-24
An invitation to get very personal with him, which is in other places referred to as knowing them. A man and a woman know each other and that involves ultra personal stuff as most are probably aware.

In the New Testament we read in John Chapter 17
(PLEASE READ IT THROUGH, THERE IS A LOT IN THESE WORDS)

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee: as Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him. And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou hast sent. I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. I have manifested Thy Name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.

Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee. For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.

And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine own Name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be One, as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And now come I to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
I have given them Thy Word;
and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy Word is Truth.
As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their Word; That they all may be One; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be One in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.

And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be One, even as We are One: I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in One; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.

Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.
O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I have known Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent Me. And I have declared unto them Thy Name, and will declare it:

that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them.


Interesting, also to note, that the Temple, the place of sacrifice, was afterwards built upon this same mount Moriah, which itself, in the whole land, was very near to where Jesus was crucified.

Have we entered into a place of knowing and being known?

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 7:20
I am the good shepherd, and know My sheep, and am known of Mine. As the Father knoweth Me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down My life for the sheep. John 10:14-15


Bless you ....><>


Verily, verily I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which He spake unto them.
John !0:1-6
 
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