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An hour then your thoughts

Now we focus on omniscience = no free will = cherry picked people for heaven etc etc

"omniscience" is simply knowing every that is going to happen before it happens. All men have free will to choose, but God already knows what you are going to choose before you choose it! Does God choose certain ones to be his? Absolutely!!! God chooses those whom he knew would choose him!!
 
I don't believe that. God could make an educated guess. But is still open to being surprised.
If that is the case then God is NOT "omniscience"
If the Lord does not know every thing, then no one has a guarantee they will ever be saved!!
 
Lucifer had no problem being the anointed cherub that covereth, but he wanted to be more than what he was created for.
He could also have chosen to not be the anointed cherub.

Imagine the reason for God casting Lucifer out being '''he did not want to do what I said he must do''.

No, the devil was cast out because '''he wanted to kick Me off My seat, he wanted nothing to do with Me, he hated Me''.

A universe of difference. We can assume much more transpired. What is crystal clear is that no rational mind will judge God as evil or unreasonable for removing the devil.
 
If that is the case then God is NOT "omniscience"
If the Lord does not know every thing, then no one has a guarantee they will ever be saved!!
Omniscient is all knowing. Omnipotent is all powerful.

Omniscience and omnipotence cannot define God anymore then a hairy chest / body can define you.

God is omniscient PLUS exceedingly good.

How does an omniscient God who is exceedingly good Psalm 136:1 / light with no darkness 'at all' 1 John 1:5, achieve the goal of having sons and daughters / a bride in heaven?

A. He creates them all on earth and makes them think He doesn't know whom He will choose. He is deceitful.
B. He creates them all on earth and He completely removes Himself from over riding free will. He gives them the ability to judge free will. In heaven, He increases their intelligence 1 Cor 13:12, empowering them to further judge free will / His goodness. Thereby upholding His goodness.
 
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If the Lord does not know every thing, then no one has a guarantee they will ever be saved!!
God knows those who have touched Him. Who love Him. God, with all He is, will keep those with Him. He has already proven this to us by laying His life down on the cross. He wants us to know the depth of His commitment.

I don't propose we make assumptions about God. Let's just give God the benefit of the doubt and look at where the evidence points. It does point to Him being surprised by those who choose to accept Him.
 
Angles can rebel if they want to. God will not stop there free will choice, but they will suffer the consequences of their own actions as did Lucifer, and all that followed him.
They can, agreed. But it is highly unlikely. I believe that in heaven, when you are in that environment. Your yes is a more certain 'yes' and your no, a more certain 'no'. Those that rebelled were harboring the intentions for a while. God sensed this. Picked up hints of it. Saw thoughts. They were only removed when they chose to leave with the devil. The devil was only asked to leave, because his iniquity was at the level of wanting God removed from the throne.

We all have a depth of evil we give in to. We need to try and understand what the devil's was. Now that is not hard as we can see from the cross what it is. Imagine, all the devil did to Jesus was ''I am so upset with you. I hate you so much. I am going to put you in a prison for a day, with traffic fine offenders. You will be given food and sweats. But you will be behind bars for the entire day!''.

Imagine the discussions we will have on a forum like this. How is it that God would remove him for all eternity? God is surely a bit ridiculous.

No. What we ''CAN'' see is that God is ''NOT'' ridiculous. The devil, showed an insane extremity of wickedness in what He did to God when He was a Lamb to the slaughter.

So, we can say, God truly '''''must have'''''' persevered with the devil until all hope was truly lost.

We ''cannot' say, iniquity was found and he got the boot, fullstop. Scripture does say iniquity was found in him. But using that one scripture in isolation, is simply a gross miss representation of all the facts.
 
"omniscience" is simply knowing every that is going to happen before it happens. All men have free will to choose, but God already knows what you are going to choose before you choose it! Does God choose certain ones to be his? Absolutely!!! God chooses those whom he knew would choose him!!
Then why go through the motions of earth? Is God being deceitful? Why not just shorten lifespans, deal with extreme evil better and get earth all over and done with quicker? Or heck, just create us in heaven like the angles. Give us a dream where we accept Him. And wallah, we are in heaven for eternity because we chose Him in a five minute dream. The evidence points to Him limiting His omnipotence and omniscience.

It also sounds 'ok' when you consider heaven only, sure. But the shocker hits home when you consider hell.

God knows from birth those babies that will not choose Him. Those babies over there will burn in hell for eternity. Those other babies won't.

Do you think God will allow such a thought to resonate with Him? God can do all things but He cannot remove foreknowledge that 1. makes evil thoughts resonate with Him, 2. Points heavily in the minds of all His intelligent creation to partiality. God does not avoid all appearance of evil?

An omnipotent God cannot limit His omniscience?
 
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You need to remember one thing Curtis. God is the Creator. Nobody is out of line in accusing Him of being evil if He has any foreknowledge of our decisions to accept or reject Him. Especially since a place like hell exists. You need to defy all logic in His defense of Him being good, if you want to espouse He has foreknowledge.

If there was no hell, literally nobody would ever care / ever spend a second discussing His foreknowledge.
 
Greetings,

You need to remember one thing Curtis. God is the Creator. Nobody is out of line in accusing Him of being evil if He has any foreknowledge of our decisions to accept or reject Him. Especially since a place like hell exists. You need to defy all logic in His defense of Him being good, if you want to espouse He has foreknowledge.

If there was no hell, literally nobody would ever care / ever spend a second discussing His foreknowledge.

dear KingJ,
be careful what you write and state.
Perhaps you could re-phrase that for us?
Anyone who accuses God of being evil is most definitely out of line, end of story.
Perhaps you were saying this in a way that was trying to express something but it does not come out too well with the words you used.


Bless you ....><>
 
An omnipotent God cannot limit His omniscience?

Why would the Lord do that? How else could he guarantee salvation to anyone. I guess we would all just have to cross our fingers and wait and see, because you never know what is going to happen!
 
You need to defy all logic in His defense of Him being good, if you want to espouse He has foreknowledge.
If you are trying to understand the foreknowledge of God by using logic, you are going to be very disappointed. The Bible and
God are NOT logical, but spiritual. The wisdom from above is not compatible with the wisdom of this world!
 
Love, free-will, foreknowledge, and predestination. ... what a mix! :)

Here is my 2 cents.

I believe God knows everything, even what we call the future. This is foreknowledge.
But that doesn't mean He makes all the choices for everyone. That's predestination.

When you are an infant, I might to keep you from doing dangerous things. Don't play out in the street.
Don't play with matches, don't play with knives or sharp objects, etc....

When you get a little older, I might try to teach you about the dangers of things like sex, drugs, alcohol,
and driving like a daredevil.

There comes a point, when I have to "let you go". Now it's possible I already know your character, and
what kind of person you are and will be. I hope for the best, I love you... but now it's time for you to face life
and the world. I'll give you help if you want it. I'll always be there for you.

But some people have a reckless spirit about them. They've been taught well, they know knives, drugs,
and driving too fast are dangerous things. They KNOW this. But they do it anyway. They live as dangerously
as they can get away with.

Sometimes they get hurt... break a few bones here are there. I knew this would happen. Should I have stopped
them? Sometimes we try to stop people from doing things, but after they are adults... can we really stop them?
If we stop them from doing anything... do we really love them?

With some people it's more than a few broken bones, some people get disabled for life. Some people even die.
I was something of a thrill seeker in my younger days. I jumped motorcycles, did hang-gliding, cliff climbing.
... and was even a fireman for many years. I have scars, I have had broken bones, I have nearly died once.
(I was in a really bad motorcycle accident, but that wasn't because I was being careless or reckless).

What is love? A million answers come to mind, many from 1 Cor 13. But is part of love letting people do
what they want to do? Even if it injures them. Even if it disables them for life. ... even if it kills them.

God may know your future and your tendencies... maybe you play it safe. Chances are you'll never witness to people
in the ghettos and slums. Maybe you avoid danger. Chances ae you'll never be a missionary in Iraq or Afghanistan.
It seems Paul didn't avoid danger. He was beaten, ship wrecked, imprisoned, and snake-bit.

Jesus didn't avoid danger. Once of His choices got Him killed.

For some reason we think if bad things happen to some people, then it's God who caused it.
God doesn't send anyone to hell. People go to hell because THEY choose to. They make the decisions.

Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

I might know you pretty good. I might know you better than you know yourself. I might know the future.
You don't think you're going in the Marines, but I know you are. I didn't make the choice for you to do that.
I just knew that you were going to make that choice. But now that YOU have made that choice, it's
predestined that you will become conformed into the image of a Marine. You'll salute, say yes sir and no sir.
You'll get a crew-cut. You'll wear camoflauge clothing. You'll become a Marine. I didn't make that choice for you,
I just knew in advance which people would make that choice.

Looking back, I'm glad people loved me enough to let me take the chances I took. I paid for some of my choices, I even regret some of them. But at least I had the chance to make them.

OK.. maybe that's a little more than 2 cents :)
 
Greetings,
dear KingJ,
be careful what you write and state.
Perhaps you could re-phrase that for us?
Anyone who accuses God of being evil is most definitely out of line, end of story.
Perhaps you were saying this in a way that was trying to express something but it does not come out too well with the words you used.
Bless you ....><>
I re-read what I wrote, it is fine. I will clarify though :wink:.

God is not evil. Full stop. Not even a hint of darkness in Him 1 John 1:5. That is the message we have heard from the beginning.

Now......we come along and support the dictionary definition of omniscience and omnipotence......which implies God is evil.....as nobody on this planet can defend foreknowledge by the Creator as good.

God is not only omniscient and omnipotent. He is also.....good.
 
Why would the Lord do that? How else could he guarantee salvation to anyone. I guess we would all just have to cross our fingers and wait and see, because you never know what is going to happen!
God limits His omniscience when it is necessary to uphold being good.

You need to try and visualize God's goodness being as great as His omniscience. He is both at the same time.
 
If you are trying to understand the foreknowledge of God by using logic, you are going to be very disappointed. The Bible and
God are NOT logical, but spiritual. The wisdom from above is not compatible with the wisdom of this world!
God wants us to grasp that He is good. Literally all the evidence points to Him limiting His omniscience. Now with your take, you are literally undoing what He is trying to achieve. He does not need to go through the motions of earth, the cross and what not. But He is choosing to do this because He ''wants'' us to grasp that He is being fair, impartial and not evil in any way whatsoever.
 
He does not need to go through the motions of earth, the cross and what not. But He is choosing to do this because He ''wants'' us to grasp that He is being fair, impartial and not evil in any way whatsoever.
God is giving man "time" to choose whom he will serve. The Lord is not willing that any should perish so he is given man time to repent. Time is just another form of God's "mercy" upon the human race.
 
I'm joining this conversation a bit late -- but -- maybe we could insert the word "holy" instead of 'good'. We're told to 'be ye Holy, for I am Holy'.

For God so Loved the world that He Gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

God -- our Heavenly Father -- Only to those who have accepted Him as their personal Savior -- loves us and knows what is the Best for us.

I'm going to back track a bunch -- the subject of angels -- they were created by God in a different realm than we are. There are many kinds Of -- serifims , cherubims arch angels -- messenger angels. They were given those particular jobs and don't get to choose whether or not to do them.

We were created a little lower than the angels. That doesn't mean almost like them -- it means totally different.

One thing I'd disagree with is the present 'home' of the fallen angels. They're presently here on earth as demons. Since Revelation 20 or so says that satan, the false prophet and the beast will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone for ever, where do the demons end up? There is demon possession of people in the past and present time. Maybe they will remain in the people who they possess and end up hell That way?

So -- my 2 cents worth for now. When the subject was first mentioned, it sounded interesting -- wondered if it would continue -- and it has.
 
God wants us to grasp that He is good. Literally all the evidence points to Him limiting His omniscience. Now with your take, you are literally undoing what He is trying to achieve. He does not need to go through the motions of earth, the cross and what not. But He is choosing to do this because He ''wants'' us to grasp that He is being fair, impartial and not evil in any way whatsoever.


God has given us His way/ the Only way / for mankind to stay Out of eternity in hell AND be able to be in heaven for eternity. Because "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ the Lord."

God commendeth His love towards us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Not only did He Die, but He also rose again for us.

Omniscience = all knowledge. In what way does God limit his knowledge. He knows exactly what each person has done and will do in the future -- yesterday, today and tomorrow. He knows that I'll stub my toe and learn to have shoes on my feet in order to protect my toes. Once, many years ago, God allowed me to leave my keys in the ignition of my car and accidentally locked myself Out of my car. After That, I've kept my keys in my hand until I'm out of my car. I Also have my keys in my hand before I leave my house just so I don't accidentally lock the door with my keys still on the table.

God is Holy.
 
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