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1 John chapter 5: verse 7 and the Greek Grammar

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1 John 5:7 and the Greek Grammar

“ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες εν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατήρ, ὁ λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν”

“For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one”

Since 1881 and the Revised Version, this verse reads: “οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες”, “For there are three that testify”. Which is continued in verse 8, “το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν”, “the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree in one”

It is generally argued, that because the textual evidence for this passage, especially in the Greek manuscripts, does not have the disputed words, that they do not belong to the Original Autograph of the Apostle John.

The accepted reading for verse 7, “οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες”, is a major problem with the Greek grammar. These words refer to the three witnesses in verse 8, “the Spirit and the water and the blood”. These nouns in the Greek are in the neuter gender. But the words, “τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες”, are in the masculine. Why is this? Some argue that this is used for “personification”, especially as the Holy Spirit is one of the Witnesses. This is incorrect. In verse 6, where John also mentions the “water, blood”, he then says, “And it is the Spirit that bears witness, because the Spirit is truth”. However, here John rightly writes, “το πνευμα εστιν το μαρτυρουν”, “the Spirit that bears Witness”, which is in the neuter gender. No one will doubt that the Person of the Holy Spirit is here meant, even though the neuter is used. This is because of the grammatical gender, that requires it. As Paul does in Romans 8:16, 26, “αυτο το πνευμα συμμαρτυρει”, literally, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with” (KJV), because of the neuter. Modern versions have rightly corrected this to, “The Spirit Himself bears witness with”. There is no reason whatsoever, for John to have written, “οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες”, using the masculine, when the neuter (τρια εισι τα μαρτυρουντα) would agree with the neuter nouns used, as he has already done in verse 6. Put back the disputed words, where we have the two nouns, “ὁ πατήρ, ὁ λόγος”, (the Father, the Word), in the masculine gender, this problem no longer exists! Even though we still have the neuter “το πνευμα” (the Spirit), the two masculine nouns govern the gender of the words, “τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες”. There can be no grammatical problems in the Holy Bible, as it is the Inspired, Inerrant, Word of God. The verse 7 as accepted by most versions, makes the Bible inconsistent with the rules of Greek grammar.

The Greek grammar problem continues in verse 8, with the reading, “και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν”, “and the three agree in one”. How do we account for John’s use here, of the Greek definite article, “το”? It is clear here, that it is used retrospectively, which is for renewed mention. There is no problem when we read verse 7, “καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν”, (and these Three are one), where we have “ἕν” (one) used a previous time, and the article in verse 8, is referring back to this use in 7. However, when these words in verse 7 are removed, there is a distinct problem with the Greek, as it stands in verse 8. Bishop Thomas Middleton, in his excellent work on the Greek Article, had this to say on the article in verse 8;

“But the difficulty to which the present undertaking has directed my attention, is of another kind: it respects the Article in εις το εν in the final clause of the eighth verse: if the seventh verse had not been spurious, nothing could have been plainer than that το εν of verse 8, referred to hen of verse 7: as the case now stands, I do not perceive the force or meaning of the Article” (The Doctrine of the Greek Article Applied to the Criticism and Illustration of the New Testament, page 441). Middleton did not accept verse 7 as genuine, but states the obvious difficulty in the Greek grammar, of verse 8, to which there is not answer, without the words in verse 7 restored.

It should be noted, by those who do not know Greek grammar, that, because the “το εν” in verse 8, refers back to that in verse 7, that their “meanings” do not have to be identical, as Dr Plummer argues in the Cambridge Greek Testament. As Dr Green says in his grammar on “renewed mention”, “Sometimes the reference is implicit, the second expression, bearing the article, being equivalent to the former, though not identical” (Handbook to The Grammar of The Greek Testament, page. 181).

Yet another problem exists in the Greek in verse 9, if we were to remove the words in verse 7.

“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son” (KJV)

“η μαρτυρια του θεου ην μεμαρτυρηκεν περι του υιου αυτου” (the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son)

Here we have the relative pronoun, “ἥν” (which), as found in the Received Greek Text. This has been corrupted to the conjunction, “ὄτι”. The former reading is used by Tertullian in the early 3rd century, in the Latin, but Tertullian translated himself from the Greek text. Of the latter reading, B F Westcott, who prefers the reading with the conjunction, says, “The second ὅτι is ambiguous… No one of the explanations is without difficulty” (Commentary on 1 John). And, A T Robertson, says that this reading is, “a harsh construction” (Word Pictures). With the reading “ἥν”, this takes us back to the “αὕτη”, in the verse, “THIS is the Witness of God”, which is to the Heavenly Witnesses in verse 7. That the relative pronoun is the correct reading, is confirmed by verse 10, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that (ἥν) God gave of his Son”. The only Witnesses that God the Father has given, concerning Jesus Christ, is the Witness that we have in the words of verse 7. In verse 6 we have the Witness of the Holy Spirit, concerning Jesus Coming in the flesh, which is again confirmed in verses 7 and 8. Verses 9 and 10 speak of the Witness of the Father, both of which take us back to verse 7, where alone “The Father” is mentioned.

It is evident, that the internal evidence is very much supportive of the disputed words in verse 7, even though the external “evidence”, which has come down to us, may say otherwise.

We cannot also ignore the testimony of two very early Church fathers, Tertullian and Cyprian, both from the North African Latin Church, who also used the Greek Bible.

Tertullian, in his work “Against Praxeas”, writes:

“And so the connection of the Father, and the Son, and of the Paraclete makes three cohering Persons, one in the other, which three are one (qui tres unum sunt) [in substance ‘unum’, not ‘one’ in number, ‘unus’]; in the same manner which it was said, ‘I and the Father are one’, to denote the unity of substance, not the singularity of number” (Ad Prax. C.25).”

Cyprian, in his work, The Unity of the Church, also writes:

“The Lord said, I and the Father are one, and again of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, it is written: and these three are one” (V)

See the language of Cyprian here, “et iterum...scriptum est”, that is, “and again...it is written”. Both he and Tertullian connect John 10:30, “I and the Father We are one”, to their “unity” in 1 John 5:7.

The textual scholar, Dr Frederick Scrivener, who himself did not accept the disputed words, had this to say on Cyprian’s quote:

“It is surely safer and more candid to admit that Cyprian read ver. 7 in his copies, than to resort to the explanation of Facundus [vi], that the holy Bishop was merely putting on ver.8 a spiritual meaning” (A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, vol. II, p.405)

The evidence of the internal Greek grammar, is without any doubt the strongest of the evidence for the inclusion of the words in verse 7. The Bible is the Inspired Word of God, Breathed into by the Holy Spirit, and therefore without errors.
 
The evidence of the internal Greek grammar, is without any doubt the strongest of the evidence for the inclusion of the words in verse 7. The Bible is the Inspired Word of God, Breathed into by the Holy Spirit, and therefore without errors.
That is true but that does not means translators and their translations are of equivalent truth
I refer all to the continual controversy over the last verses of Mark 16 in which non-Pentecostals gleefully insist that these verses are not the word of God.
1John 5:7 has been tampered with [an interpolation] no doubt by the church of Rome to uphold Roman doctrine
the correct Greek and translation has been provided by Ivan Panin in his Numeric English New Testament in which the gematria of the Greek defines the valid God given scripture

1John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
5:7 And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth.
5:8 Because the witnessing ones are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
5:9 If we receive the witness of *men, the witness of *God is greater: because the witness of *God is this that he hath witnessed concerning his *Son.

verses 7-8 reiterate the fundamentals of the gospel - the blood shed by Jesus at Golgotha for the forgiveness of sins - and water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit to become disciples of the gospel.

John 3:5 *Jesus answered, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of *God.
3:8 The Spirit breatheth where he willeth, and thou hearest his *voice, but knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is everyone *born of the Spirit.
 
in heaven. The texts read "the Spirit, and the water," omitting all the words from "in heaven," to "in earth" (1Jn_5:8) inclusive. The words are not found in any Greek MS. before the sixteenth century. They were first seen in the margin of some Latin copies. Thence they have crept into the text (CB). The fact and doctrine of the Trinity do not depend upon this spurious addition (Robertson, cited by Wuest).
 
in heaven. The texts read "the Spirit, and the water," omitting all the words from "in heaven," to "in earth" (1Jn_5:8) inclusive. The words are not found in any Greek MS. before the sixteenth century. They were first seen in the margin of some Latin copies. Thence they have crept into the text (CB). The fact and doctrine of the Trinity do not depend upon this spurious addition (Robertson, cited by Wuest).

A T Robertson is quite wrong on this, as he is elsewhere, even on Greek grammar!

Too many people get hung-up on what the manuscript count is, which are copies made by copyists, who, like Origen, and others, often allow their theological bias to infulence their work. The fact that both Tertullian and Cyprian, who both read Greek and Latin, found verse 7 in their Greek New Testament, from which the Latin was copied, is very much conclusive that the words were part of the Epistle in the 2nd century.

Like 1 Corinthians 8:6, which included reference to the Holy Spirit, 1 John 5:7 was tampered with at a very early date, as were a few passages that Testify to the Deity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
 
A T Robertson is quite wrong on this,
but not Ivan Panin
1John 5:7 may well be "problematic" but it is not a great doctrinal challenge to faith in the true GOD of salvation as there are plenty of other scriptures that testify to the Godhead.
However, of greater error are the constant denials by non-Pentecostals that Mark 16:12-20 are spurious and not the true Word of God.
This debate does deal a death blow to understanding what is the true gospel and true discipleship written in our NT for the great majority of those called Christians.
This argument over scripture has spiritual consequences that have ruined true worship, and allowed the church of Rome and her later children to deliver another gospel, not from God but from men.

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my *name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues;
18 and in their hands they shall take up serpents, and if they drink aught deadly, it shall in now wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into *heaven, and sat down at the right hand of *God.
20 And THEY went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed.

So here we all have to read for ourselves the words of Jesus giving precise standards of true belief in a true gospel with God given results.
A standard to measure all doctrines and faiths by - upheld in both Acts and the epistles to the Spirit-filled Pentecostal ekklesia of the NT era.
Ivan Panin and other Bible scholars of the Koine Greek are able to prove beyond doubt by gematria (or Bible Numerics) that these verses are true indeed.
In fact in a famous letter to the editor (New York Times) in about 1905 Panin publicly challenged skeptics to disprove the Bible Numerics of these verses - over a century later no scholar has been able to refute
the mathematics (or gematria) of the original Koine Greek for these last last nine verses of Mark 16.
And yet most would rather believe Rome over the Word of God.
So where does that leave the majority of believers when Jesus comes back in power and glory ???
The evidence of the internal Greek grammar, is without any doubt the strongest of the evidence for the inclusion of the words in verse 7. The Bible is the Inspired Word of God, Breathed into by the Holy Spirit, and therefore without errors.
You cannot have it both ways - claiming inerrancy of scripture but not when it suits most Christians to deny the truth of scripture and depart from the one faith taught in the NT.
Given what you have claimed above it behoves you to fully believe and act upon Mark 16 "and these signs shall follow them that believe" as in Acts 2, and Acts 10 and Acts 19 and 1Cornithians 12 and 14.
 
but not Ivan Panin
1John 5:7 may well be "problematic" but it is not a great doctrinal challenge to faith in the true GOD of salvation as there are plenty of other scriptures that testify to the Godhead.
However, of greater error are the constant denials by non-Pentecostals that Mark 16:12-20 are spurious and not the true Word of God.
This debate does deal a death blow to understanding what is the true gospel and true discipleship written in our NT for the great majority of those called Christians.
This argument over scripture has spiritual consequences that have ruined true worship, and allowed the church of Rome and her later children to deliver another gospel, not from God but from men.

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my *name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues;
18 and in their hands they shall take up serpents, and if they drink aught deadly, it shall in now wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into *heaven, and sat down at the right hand of *God.
20 And THEY went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed.

So here we all have to read for ourselves the words of Jesus giving precise standards of true belief in a true gospel with God given results.
A standard to measure all doctrines and faiths by - upheld in both Acts and the epistles to the Spirit-filled Pentecostal ekklesia of the NT era.
Ivan Panin and other Bible scholars of the Koine Greek are able to prove beyond doubt by gematria (or Bible Numerics) that these verses are true indeed.
In fact in a famous letter to the editor (New York Times) in about 1905 Panin publicly challenged skeptics to disprove the Bible Numerics of these verses - over a century later no scholar has been able to refute
the mathematics (or gematria) of the original Koine Greek for these last last nine verses of Mark 16.
And yet most would rather believe Rome over the Word of God.
So where does that leave the majority of believers when Jesus comes back in power and glory ???

You cannot have it both ways - claiming inerrancy of scripture but not when it suits most Christians to deny the truth of scripture and depart from the one faith taught in the NT.
Given what you have claimed above it behoves you to fully believe and act upon Mark 16 "and these signs shall follow them that believe" as in Acts 2, and Acts 10 and Acts 19 and 1Cornithians 12 and 14.

WHAT are you on about here? The OP is ONLY concerned with the Greek grammar of 1 John 5:7, in its context, and NOT the ending of Mark's Gospel!!!
 
in its context, and NOT the ending of Mark's Gospel!!!
Same issue. Same problem.
Why fuss about 1John 5:7 [a gnat] when the issue of the last 9 verses of Mark 16 are so much more important to life and death.
And those who deny Mark 16 use the same arguments about Greek grammar to deny the truth of scripture - the word of God.
 
Same issue. Same problem.
Why fuss about 1John 5:7 [a gnat] when the issue of the last 9 verses of Mark 16 are so much more important to life and death.
And those who deny Mark 16 use the same arguments about Greek grammar to deny the truth of scripture - the word of God.

what 1 John 5:7 teaches is about the God of the Holy Bible, is Nature, that He is One Godhead in Three distinct Persons

This is known as Theology proper, as it is the Highest study in the Bible, GOD

The ending of Mark's Gospel can never be compared on content value, as does the Pericope Adulterae, etc

You cannot justify the existence of one passage, from the evidence of another, it simply does not work in this way

it is you who is straining at a gnat!
 
1 John 5:7 and the Greek Grammar

“ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες εν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατήρ, ὁ λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν”

“For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one”

Since 1881 and the Revised Version, this verse reads: “οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες”, “For there are three that testify”. Which is continued in verse 8, “το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν”, “the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree in one”

It is generally argued, that because the textual evidence for this passage, especially in the Greek manuscripts, does not have the disputed words, that they do not belong to the Original Autograph of the Apostle John.

The accepted reading for verse 7, “οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες”, is a major problem with the Greek grammar. These words refer to the three witnesses in verse 8, “the Spirit and the water and the blood”. These nouns in the Greek are in the neuter gender. But the words, “τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες”, are in the masculine. Why is this? Some argue that this is used for “personification”, especially as the Holy Spirit is one of the Witnesses. This is incorrect. In verse 6, where John also mentions the “water, blood”, he then says, “And it is the Spirit that bears witness, because the Spirit is truth”. However, here John rightly writes, “το πνευμα εστιν το μαρτυρουν”, “the Spirit that bears Witness”, which is in the neuter gender. No one will doubt that the Person of the Holy Spirit is here meant, even though the neuter is used. This is because of the grammatical gender, that requires it. As Paul does in Romans 8:16, 26, “αυτο το πνευμα συμμαρτυρει”, literally, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with” (KJV), because of the neuter. Modern versions have rightly corrected this to, “The Spirit Himself bears witness with”. There is no reason whatsoever, for John to have written, “οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες”, using the masculine, when the neuter (τρια εισι τα μαρτυρουντα) would agree with the neuter nouns used, as he has already done in verse 6. Put back the disputed words, where we have the two nouns, “ὁ πατήρ, ὁ λόγος”, (the Father, the Word), in the masculine gender, this problem no longer exists! Even though we still have the neuter “το πνευμα” (the Spirit), the two masculine nouns govern the gender of the words, “τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες”. There can be no grammatical problems in the Holy Bible, as it is the Inspired, Inerrant, Word of God. The verse 7 as accepted by most versions, makes the Bible inconsistent with the rules of Greek grammar.

The Greek grammar problem continues in verse 8, with the reading, “και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν”, “and the three agree in one”. How do we account for John’s use here, of the Greek definite article, “το”? It is clear here, that it is used retrospectively, which is for renewed mention. There is no problem when we read verse 7, “καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν”, (and these Three are one), where we have “ἕν” (one) used a previous time, and the article in verse 8, is referring back to this use in 7. However, when these words in verse 7 are removed, there is a distinct problem with the Greek, as it stands in verse 8. Bishop Thomas Middleton, in his excellent work on the Greek Article, had this to say on the article in verse 8;

“But the difficulty to which the present undertaking has directed my attention, is of another kind: it respects the Article in εις το εν in the final clause of the eighth verse: if the seventh verse had not been spurious, nothing could have been plainer than that το εν of verse 8, referred to hen of verse 7: as the case now stands, I do not perceive the force or meaning of the Article” (The Doctrine of the Greek Article Applied to the Criticism and Illustration of the New Testament, page 441). Middleton did not accept verse 7 as genuine, but states the obvious difficulty in the Greek grammar, of verse 8, to which there is not answer, without the words in verse 7 restored.

It should be noted, by those who do not know Greek grammar, that, because the “το εν” in verse 8, refers back to that in verse 7, that their “meanings” do not have to be identical, as Dr Plummer argues in the Cambridge Greek Testament. As Dr Green says in his grammar on “renewed mention”, “Sometimes the reference is implicit, the second expression, bearing the article, being equivalent to the former, though not identical” (Handbook to The Grammar of The Greek Testament, page. 181).

Yet another problem exists in the Greek in verse 9, if we were to remove the words in verse 7.

“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son” (KJV)

“η μαρτυρια του θεου ην μεμαρτυρηκεν περι του υιου αυτου” (the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son)

Here we have the relative pronoun, “ἥν” (which), as found in the Received Greek Text. This has been corrupted to the conjunction, “ὄτι”. The former reading is used by Tertullian in the early 3rd century, in the Latin, but Tertullian translated himself from the Greek text. Of the latter reading, B F Westcott, who prefers the reading with the conjunction, says, “The second ὅτι is ambiguous… No one of the explanations is without difficulty” (Commentary on 1 John). And, A T Robertson, says that this reading is, “a harsh construction” (Word Pictures). With the reading “ἥν”, this takes us back to the “αὕτη”, in the verse, “THIS is the Witness of God”, which is to the Heavenly Witnesses in verse 7. That the relative pronoun is the correct reading, is confirmed by verse 10, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that (ἥν) God gave of his Son”. The only Witnesses that God the Father has given, concerning Jesus Christ, is the Witness that we have in the words of verse 7. In verse 6 we have the Witness of the Holy Spirit, concerning Jesus Coming in the flesh, which is again confirmed in verses 7 and 8. Verses 9 and 10 speak of the Witness of the Father, both of which take us back to verse 7, where alone “The Father” is mentioned.

It is evident, that the internal evidence is very much supportive of the disputed words in verse 7, even though the external “evidence”, which has come down to us, may say otherwise.

We cannot also ignore the testimony of two very early Church fathers, Tertullian and Cyprian, both from the North African Latin Church, who also used the Greek Bible.

Tertullian, in his work “Against Praxeas”, writes:

“And so the connection of the Father, and the Son, and of the Paraclete makes three cohering Persons, one in the other, which three are one (qui tres unum sunt) [in substance ‘unum’, not ‘one’ in number, ‘unus’]; in the same manner which it was said, ‘I and the Father are one’, to denote the unity of substance, not the singularity of number” (Ad Prax. C.25).”

Cyprian, in his work, The Unity of the Church, also writes:

“The Lord said, I and the Father are one, and again of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, it is written: and these three are one” (V)

See the language of Cyprian here, “et iterum...scriptum est”, that is, “and again...it is written”. Both he and Tertullian connect John 10:30, “I and the Father We are one”, to their “unity” in 1 John 5:7.

The textual scholar, Dr Frederick Scrivener, who himself did not accept the disputed words, had this to say on Cyprian’s quote:

“It is surely safer and more candid to admit that Cyprian read ver. 7 in his copies, than to resort to the explanation of Facundus [vi], that the holy Bishop was merely putting on ver.8 a spiritual meaning” (A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, vol. II, p.405)

The evidence of the internal Greek grammar, is without any doubt the strongest of the evidence for the inclusion of the words in verse 7. The Bible is the Inspired Word of God, Breathed into by the Holy Spirit, and therefore without errors.
Have modern translators "corrected" the passage by changing the neuter "it" to the masculine "himself", or have they simply inserted their theology into the text of Scripture?)
 
The correct Greek original is translated as follows
1John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
7 And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 Because the witnessing ones are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: because the witness of God is this that he hath witnessed concerning his Son.
 
The correct Greek original is translated as follows
1John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
7 And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 Because the witnessing ones are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: because the witness of God is this that he hath witnessed concerning his Son.

the correct Greek? Really?

I have shown in the OP, that the Greek grammar in the passage, is conclusive that with out, "ὁ πατὴρ ὁ λόγος καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα", in verse 7, you cannot have, "οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν"

Nor can you account for the Greek article in verse 8, "τὸ ἕν", which has nothing to refer back to, if verse 7 is removed. This fact of Greek grammar is also acknowledged by the Greek scholar, Dr Middleton, who does not accept verse 7 as genuine, but admits the problem of the article in verse 8, which no one has been able to explain!
 
I have shown in the OP, that the Greek grammar in the passage, is conclusive that with out, "ὁ πατὴρ ὁ λόγος καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα", in verse 7, you cannot have, "οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν"

Nor can you account for the Greek article in verse 8, "τὸ ἕν", which has nothing to refer back to, if verse 7 is removed. This fact of Greek grammar is also acknowledged by the Greek scholar, Dr Middleton, who does not accept verse 7 as genuine, but admits the problem of the article in verse 8, which no one has been able to explain!
NO - you have shown that some manuscripts contain the unwarranted interpolation of additional wording - most likely by the church of Rome.
1John 5:7
(DRB) And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
(ESV) For there are three that testify:
(KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(LEB) For there are three that testify,
(LITV) For there are three bearing witness [in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.]
(LSV) because [there] are three who are testifying [[in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one;]
(NENT) And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth.
(RV) And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
(WEB) For there are three who testify:
(WEBA) For there are three who testify:
(Weymouth) For there are three that give testimony-- the Spirit, the water, and the blood;
(YLT) because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these - the three - are one;]
 
what are you referring to?
You a said,

"In verse 6, where John also mentions the “water, blood”, he then says, “And it is the Spirit that bears witness, because the Spirit is truth”. However, here John rightly writes, “το πνευμα εστιν το μαρτυρουν”, “the Spirit that bears Witness”, which is in the neuter gender. No one will doubt that the Person of the Holy Spirit is here meant, even though the neuter is used. This is because of the grammatical gender, that requires it. As Paul does in Romans 8:16, 26, “αυτο το πνευμα συμμαρτυρει”, literally, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with” (KJV), because of the neuter. Modern versions have rightly corrected this to, “The Spirit Himself bears witness with”."

I would questio your phrase, "No one will doubt that the Person of the Holy Spirit is here meant".

But, my main question was in relation to this statement, "Modern versions have rightly corrected this to, “The Spirit Himself bears witness with”."

My question is, have they "rightly corrected" it, or have they simply imposed their Trinitarian theology onto the text? It seems to me to be the latter. The only place I'm aware of in all of Scripture where the Spirit is referred to in the masculine gender is in John 16 when it is called the comforter. As you pointed out that is required. grammatically. Other than one's theology what reason is there to render the neuter gender as the masculine pronoun he?
 
You a said,

"In verse 6, where John also mentions the “water, blood”, he then says, “And it is the Spirit that bears witness, because the Spirit is truth”. However, here John rightly writes, “το πνευμα εστιν το μαρτυρουν”, “the Spirit that bears Witness”, which is in the neuter gender. No one will doubt that the Person of the Holy Spirit is here meant, even though the neuter is used. This is because of the grammatical gender, that requires it. As Paul does in Romans 8:16, 26, “αυτο το πνευμα συμμαρτυρει”, literally, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with” (KJV), because of the neuter. Modern versions have rightly corrected this to, “The Spirit Himself bears witness with”."

I would questio your phrase, "No one will doubt that the Person of the Holy Spirit is here meant".

But, my main question was in relation to this statement, "Modern versions have rightly corrected this to, “The Spirit Himself bears witness with”."

My question is, have they "rightly corrected" it, or have they simply imposed their Trinitarian theology onto the text? It seems to me to be the latter. The only place I'm aware of in all of Scripture where the Spirit is referred to in the masculine gender is in John 16 when it is called the comforter. As you pointed out that is required. grammatically. Other than one's theology what reason is there to render the neuter gender as the masculine pronoun he?

It has got nothing to do with Trinitarians using the masculine for the Holy Spirit, because they believe that He is a Person, and God.

"πνεῦμα" is a neuter word in the Greek language, which is used for the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that the Holy Spirit is impersonal, and a "thing" as taught by some. In agreement with Greek grammar, there is grammitical agreement with words that are associated. Like Romans 8:16, 26, where the Greek, "αὐτὸ τὸ πνεῦμα" has been translated literally according to the grammar, in Versions like the KJV, "the Spirit itself". However, in Romans 8:27, we read that the Spirit has a "mind", and "He makes intercession" for the saints, etc, which refers to Personal beings, and not an "inactive force".

In John's Gospel, we find a most interesting use of grammar by Jesus of the Holy Spirit. Our Lord refers to the Holy Spirit by the pronoun "He", in a few places (eg. 14:17, 26; 15:26; 16:8, 13, 14, etc.). But, it has been said, that the use of "He" is not because a Person is meant, but for the sake of "personification"; as Paul does in 1 Corinthians 13:5, where he says of "love", that it "seeks not her own (feminine)". Let us come away from the English, and look at the Greek of what Jesus used. As I have already said, because "πνευμα" is a neuter noun, the correct grammatical noun that Jesus should have used, would be "εκεινο", which is also in the neuter. Also it should be remembered, that the use of the neuter does not in any way indicate that a Person is not meant, as I have shown this is more to do with correct grammar. However, instead of using the neuter "εκεινο", Jesus uses the masculine "εκεινος". Why? Also, when He refers to the Holy Spirit as "the Comforter"(14:26), he should have used the neuter "το παρακλτον", which would agree grammatically with the use of "πνευμα". But, as before He adopts the masculine "ὀ παρακλτος". And, we also have the use of the masculine "αυτον" ("Him" -16:7; where we should expect "αυτο"); and "εαυτοὗ" ("Himself" - 16:13; again where we should expect "εαυτο"); and we also have the use of the pronoun "ὁν" ("Whom"- 15:26; where the neuter "ὃ" is required). In John 14:17, the oldest Greek manuscript for this Gospel, known as P66 (c.200 A.D.), it does not have the neuter "αυτο", but the masculine, "αυτον"! Here it is Jesus Christ Who is speaking about the Holy Spirit as a Person.

We must look at another example on the use of the masculine, where the neuter would have sufficed. Paul, in his Epistle to the Ephesians wrote:

"Christ...in Whom also, upon believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance.." (1:12-14)

Here, Paul is describing the Holy Spirit (τᾧ Πνευματι τᾧ Αγιῳ) as our "guarantee" of eternal life. Instead of using the neuter ὄ (which), corresponding to the neuter (τᾧ Πνευματι τᾧ Αγιῳ), he uses the masculine "ος" (Who). I am aware that both readings are attested for by ancient evidence, but the masculine has the far stronger witness, dating to Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (A.D.130-200), who quotes this verse in his work "Against Heresies" (book V. ch.viii), which was written at the end of the second century; for which he would have used far older manuscripts of this Epistle (and the majority of Greek Mss.). Even the Gothic Version, which was by the Arian bishop, Ulfilas, in the 4th century from the Greek, has the masculine! The oldest witness to the neuter reading, is the Papyri manuscript (P46), which dates from around 200 A.D. The use of the neuter would have been enough for the Personality of the Holy Spirit; so why use the masculine?
 
NO - you have shown that some manuscripts contain the unwarranted interpolation of additional wording - most likely by the church of Rome.
1John 5:7
(DRB) And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
(ESV) For there are three that testify:
(KJV) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(LEB) For there are three that testify,
(LITV) For there are three bearing witness [in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.]
(LSV) because [there] are three who are testifying [[in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one;]
(NENT) And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth.
(RV) And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
(WEB) For there are three who testify:
(WEBA) For there are three who testify:
(Weymouth) For there are three that give testimony-- the Spirit, the water, and the blood;
(YLT) because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these - the three - are one;]

both Tertullian and Cyprian who were in the early Church in the 2nd/3rd centuries, and had both Greek and Latin Epistles of John, clearly quote these words as part of what John wrote.

I have shown that the Greek grammar is conclusive for the words to be retained as part of the Epistle, removing these words cause the grammar to become inconsistent, which is not what the Holy Spirit would have told John to write.

Here is a very interesting fact in history. The Church Council of Carthage (485 A.D.), which was mainly attended by bishops who were Arian in their theology, anti Trinitarian, and anti Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit being God, there is a statement of faith at the council, and this manifesto was incorporated into Victor Vitensis’ account. It speaks of the Comma:

“And as a shining light teaching the unity of the divinity of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit, the testimony of John the Evangelist demonstratively testifies: ‘There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.’” (Victor of Vitensis, Historia persecutionis Africanae)

Yes, the chose 1 John 5:7 as their text for the Holy Trinity, which could not have been referred to, if it were not part of the Original Epistle of John. No doubt this would have been very strongly objected to the by Arians who were present, if it were not genuine!
 
And yet the gematria of the original Greek does not support the inclusion of these words into 1 John.

Also worth noting that such an open declaration of the "trinity" is unusual, given that there is no other clear precise declaration of the "trinity" in the gospels. Acts and the epistles.
Why just one verse??
Further it reads as an interpolation "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is out of context with what the other verses are teaching us here.
It is unnecessary wording interrupting the flow of doctrine being revealed here by John.
That Jesus came by water baptism and his death at Golgotha - and the Holy Spirit testifies of this.
A disciple needs to believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus as the Son of God AND also come to Christ Jesus by water and Spirit.
Verse 8 reaffirms the truth of the gospels concerning Jesus as God and Redeemer.

1John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
7 And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 Because the witnessing ones are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
This is much more grammatically and doctrinally consistent with what John is teaching us
1John 2:2 and HE is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
1John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment.
24 And who keepeth his commandments abideth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit whom he gave us.
 
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except one be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born being an old man? can he enter a second time into the womb of his mother, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 What is born of the flesh is flesh; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born from above.
8 The Spirit breatheth where he willeth, and thou hearest his voice, but knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is everyone born of the Spirit.

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan unto John to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But he would fain hinder him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and THOU comest unto me?
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, Suffer me now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened, and he saw God’s Spirit descending as if a dove coming upon him;
Mat 3:17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens saying, This is my son the beloved in whom I am well pleased.
 
It has got nothing to do with Trinitarians using the masculine for the Holy Spirit, because they believe that He is a Person, and God.

"πνεῦμα" is a neuter word in the Greek language, which is used for the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that the Holy Spirit is impersonal, and a "thing" as taught by some. In agreement with Greek grammar, there is grammitical agreement with words that are associated. Like Romans 8:16, 26, where the Greek, "αὐτὸ τὸ πνεῦμα" has been translated literally according to the grammar, in Versions like the KJV, "the Spirit itself". However, in Romans 8:27, we read that the Spirit has a "mind", and "He makes intercession" for the saints, etc, which refers to Personal beings, and not an "inactive force".

In John's Gospel, we find a most interesting use of grammar by Jesus of the Holy Spirit. Our Lord refers to the Holy Spirit by the pronoun "He", in a few places (eg. 14:17, 26; 15:26; 16:8, 13, 14, etc.). But, it has been said, that the use of "He" is not because a Person is meant, but for the sake of "personification"; as Paul does in 1 Corinthians 13:5, where he says of "love", that it "seeks not her own (feminine)". Let us come away from the English, and look at the Greek of what Jesus used. As I have already said, because "πνευμα" is a neuter noun, the correct grammatical noun that Jesus should have used, would be "εκεινο", which is also in the neuter. Also it should be remembered, that the use of the neuter does not in any way indicate that a Person is not meant, as I have shown this is more to do with correct grammar. However, instead of using the neuter "εκεινο", Jesus uses the masculine "εκεινος". Why? Also, when He refers to the Holy Spirit as "the Comforter"(14:26), he should have used the neuter "το παρακλτον", which would agree grammatically with the use of "πνευμα". But, as before He adopts the masculine "ὀ παρακλτος". And, we also have the use of the masculine "αυτον" ("Him" -16:7; where we should expect "αυτο"); and "εαυτοὗ" ("Himself" - 16:13; again where we should expect "εαυτο"); and we also have the use of the pronoun "ὁν" ("Whom"- 15:26; where the neuter "ὃ" is required). In John 14:17, the oldest Greek manuscript for this Gospel, known as P66 (c.200 A.D.), it does not have the neuter "αυτο", but the masculine, "αυτον"! Here it is Jesus Christ Who is speaking about the Holy Spirit as a Person.

We must look at another example on the use of the masculine, where the neuter would have sufficed. Paul, in his Epistle to the Ephesians wrote:

"Christ...in Whom also, upon believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance.." (1:12-14)

Here, Paul is describing the Holy Spirit (τᾧ Πνευματι τᾧ Αγιῳ) as our "guarantee" of eternal life. Instead of using the neuter ὄ (which), corresponding to the neuter (τᾧ Πνευματι τᾧ Αγιῳ), he uses the masculine "ος" (Who). I am aware that both readings are attested for by ancient evidence, but the masculine has the far stronger witness, dating to Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (A.D.130-200), who quotes this verse in his work "Against Heresies" (book V. ch.viii), which was written at the end of the second century; for which he would have used far older manuscripts of this Epistle (and the majority of Greek Mss.). Even the Gothic Version, which was by the Arian bishop, Ulfilas, in the 4th century from the Greek, has the masculine! The oldest witness to the neuter reading, is the Papyri manuscript (P46), which dates from around 200 A.D. The use of the neuter would have been enough for the Personality of the Holy Spirit; so why use the masculine?
I would disagree and say it has verything to do with Trinitarianism. I'm not arguing against the personhood of the Spirit. What I'm questioning is their third person designation. Where in Scripture are we told that the Holy Spirit is a third person?

I would also ask where does Scriputre call the Holy Spirit Yahweh?

While I greatly appreciate Irenaeus his words show is what he believed not what the Bible states. If we were discussing what the early church believed this would be important. However, were discussing the Bible.

Also, back to my original question, other than theology, what reason is there to render the neuter as masculine. You said yourself that some claim it's done to personify. If that can be the case then it seems to me that if both are possible neither can be claimed as definitive.
 
I would disagree and say it has verything to do with Trinitarianism. I'm not arguing against the personhood of the Spirit. What I'm questioning is their third person designation. Where in Scripture are we told that the Holy Spirit is a third person?

I would also ask where does Scriputre call the Holy Spirit Yahweh?

While I greatly appreciate Irenaeus his words show is what he believed not what the Bible states. If we were discussing what the early church believed this would be important. However, were discussing the Bible.

Also, back to my original question, other than theology, what reason is there to render the neuter as masculine. You said yourself that some claim it's done to personify. If that can be the case then it seems to me that if both are possible neither can be claimed as definitive.

In 2 Samuel 23:2, the Holy Spirit is clearly Yahweh, as He Speaks as Yahweh in the first Person. There is no other way to understand what the Hebrew says here

The Spirit of the LORD speaks by me (heb., דִּבֶּר־בִּי, is masculine); His word (heb., וּמִלָּתוֹ , is feminine, lit, “Her word”) is on my tongue. The God of Israel has spoken; the Rock of Israel has said to me”

We would have expected “אֶת־דְּבָרוֹ”, the masculine, “His word”, which would agree with “יהוה” (YHWH), which is masculine. The Spirit here is the subject, He is the One Who speaks by David, and it is His word that is on David’s tongue. The following words also belong to the Spirit, Who is also called “The God of Israel”, and “the Rock of Israel”. Very strong assertion for the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts chapter 5, the Holy Spirit is clearly called God

“But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God…But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord?…” (5:3, 4, 9)

The Apostle Peter says to Anania, that he lied to “The Holy Spirit (το πνευμα το αγιον)”. And then says, in doing so, he actually lied “to the God (τω θεω). And then tells his wife, Sapphira, that they had “tested the Spirit of the Lord”, by their actions.

Here we have the Deity of the Holy Spirit, where He is called “God”, and “the Spirit of the Lord”. Notice the definite article in the Greek, “τω”, with “God”, where it cannot be translated as “god”.

In Acts 13:2, we read, "As they served the Lord and fasted", and the Person Who responds, is the Holy Spirit, "the Holy Spirit said, “Separate Barnabas and Saul for me, for the work to which I have called them". Note, the Holy Spirit called Paul into the ministry!

See my lastest thread on the reading in the Dead Sea Scrolls, for Isaiah 40:13-14, which is also clear that the Holy Spirit is Yahweh, Isaiah 40:13, the DSS and The Holy Spirit

The DSS are Jewish and from the end BC, and 1st century AD, so cannot have been corrupted by Christians
 
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