Thanks for asking, as they are indeed the hardest to ferret out.
I ask them to explain how they respond to those who misinterpret 1 John 1:8, first.
The misinterpretation?
That no man can say they have no sin.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15 warning
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I ask them to explain how they respond to those who misinterpret 1 John 1:8, first.
The misinterpretation?
That no man can say they have no sin.
Dave M
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2 Corinthians 11:14-15
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
certainly makes me wonder about anyone claiming to be perfect and sinless, then again some may just be confused so hard to discern here on the net, so it is best to go in Peace
Were that true, then Jesus died for nothing. (Rom 8:3-4)
Were that true, then rebirth is a hoax. (Rom 6:6-7)
Were that true, then God's seed CAN bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)
All sin is "on purpose". (James 1:14-15)
The believer can thank God for the new heart he has been given for his appropriate actions toward the needy. (2 Cor 5:17)
As you have appropriately responded..."Their end will correspond to their deeds".2 Corinthians 11:14-15
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
certainly makes me wonder about anyone claiming to be perfect and sinless, then again some may just be confused so hard to discern here on the net, so it is best to go in Peace
So - in reality-- you Are placing your 'sinless perfection' upon your good works. "Their end will correspond to their deeds." You are thankful for the new heart you've been given so as to be able to respond to the needy in an appropriate way. On the surface that sounds fine. But it still sounds like good works in reverse. That you can maintain your sinless perfection by doing those good works.
You Almost sound like the Pharisees. They'd stand up and 'pound their fists into their chest -- being thankful that they are Not like the ........"
Maybe I've misunderstood your comments -- haven't you said that you believe that once a person has accepted Christ as Savior that they don't / can't sin any more. That you, yourself don't sin? Because you are perfect in Christ -- therefore you are perfect now?
Did you just ignore the verses from Paul, Peter, and John?2 Corinthians 11:14-15
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
certainly makes me wonder about anyone claiming to be perfect and sinless, then again some may just be confused so hard to discern here on the net, so it is best to go in Peace
Perhaps Jude's letter will make more of an impact on you..."Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Judo 1:24-25)
Able to keep you from falling and present you faultless before the presence of His glory"
Doesn't that apply to you?
Here's a verse from Ephesians..."And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)
I thank God for delivering me from the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.
Here are a few more verses that deal with our God given perfection here on earth...
" Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
Show me your faith without good deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
You seem to have forgotten...
It was the Pharisees, full of all wickedness, who were being taken to task by the sinless Jesus.
Yet you keep antagonizing me for walking as He walked.
You almost sound like the Pharisees.
As there are no verses about "accepting Christ as Savior", I can say that I never said those words.
Otherwise, you got the rest right.
Thanks be to God for His immense mercy and grace, for making something of nothing.
I guess your next question will be about 1 John 1:8?
I'll save you the time and offer my explanation for that verse here...
John is writing to a church, about two kinds of men.
Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in the darkness.
Those who walk in the light have had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. They CAN say they have no sin.
Those who walk in darkness cannot say they have no sin, because they do continue to commit sin.
John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B style of writing. (Also used by Paul in Romans 8...Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh.)
A applies to those who walk in the light and B applies to those who walk in the darkness.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 refer to those who walk in the light.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 refer to those who walk in the darkness.
A...
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
B...
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The "accepting Jesus Christ as personal Savior" -- probably vocabulary I grew up with. The idea being that lots of people have knowledge About Jesus Christ -- about God -- about eternal life -- heaven and hell. But we need to apply it Personally. God wants relationship with each individual. And that is only possible through Jesus Christ. A person either accepts or rejects' God's way to have that relationship Which also results in either heaven or hell in every one's future.
1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
The study Bible I have indicates that the book was written to believers in a number of places. But mainly to Ephesus.
So you're saying it means that IF a person claims that they have no sin that needs to Be forgiven they are deceiving themselves -- that 'we' are lying to ourselves. But that once we've been forgiven -- we are cleansed fro All sin for All time. So that 1 John 1:9 is meant for a one time occasion.
A believer is in Christ Positionally --until we are with Him in Person.
God sees us justified through the blood of Christ. Yes. Just as if we'd never sinned. But we Still have the propensity For sinning. When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the Knowledge of both good and evil -- they introduced Sin into everyone's life.
We learned what sin was through the Ten Commandments. The idea being that a person Had to 'keep' every commandment All the time. When one is broken -- it's all over. Jesus Christ became the Final sacrifice for our sins. No need for any more of the yearly sacrifice of pure lambs -- Jesus Christ became The Perfect Lamb of God. But we still have the sin Nature in us. And That won't leave us until we are with Jesus Christ. Then we receive our glorified body. That's why Paul says that he struggles all the time between his old and new natures. That which he Wants to do that's right , he finds himself doing just the opposite. But he was Also used to write half of the New Testament.
I'm also curious about a comment you made a while ago -- on some thread -- about the KJV -- that any other version contains doctrinal errors and needs to be avoided. So -- do you by chance believe that Only people using the KJV are really saved / sin free?
I can agree with that.
I have no reason to doubt that.
But verse 8 is addressed to the men who still walk in the darkness/sin.
Not at all.
Some HAVE actually turned from sin and are walking in the light, where there is no sin,
The light they walk in is God Himself.
There is no sin in God.
We are cleansed from our past sins, and in light of the fact we never need sin again, it is indeed a 'one time event'.
Itis that claim that allows you, or better said, causes you to continue walking in the darkness-sin.
We ARE actually IN HIM, after we have been "immersed" into Him and into His death' burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-6)
It happens at out baptism, where we can kill the old man, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
This is where our flesh is "circumcised". (Col 2:11-13)
Points not mentioned in the thread about baptism
Not if you have been reborn from God's seed. (1 John 3:9)
It is free of the DNA that is of Adam and Eve. .
The doctrine you espouse in that paragraph makes the sacrificial lambs and goats of the OT the only ones who profited from the suffering and death of Jesus Christ.
If it made no difference in the behavior of men, only the animals profited.
But we have been allowed, by our "immersion" into Christ and into His death, to also take part in that death...killing the old man and being "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:3-7)
A life still walked in sin denies the effect of Jesus' death in our lives..
I believe that folks who want to serve God above all else will be granted, by the grace and mercy of God, the ability to forsake any version of scripture that accommodates sin.
The twisted versions of the bible were written by and for those who wish to find ways to continue in sin.
I was just looking at your bio info -- you're 64 and from Arizona -- are you by chance married. If so, does your wife see you as being perfect?
I'm not married.
What does Jesus command in Matt 5:48?
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
What OT command from God does Peter repeat in 1 Peter 1:15-16?
"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."
The importance of a wife's, or anyone else's, judgement, pales in the face of the impending judgement of God.
So -- do your family / friends see you as perfect in your every day life. That's what I'm getting at. YOU may consider yourself to be perfect, but do Others see your flaws that you Don't recognize as such.
A footnote in my Bible says "Be perfect -- Christ sets up the high ideal of perfect love --- not that we can fully attain it in this life. That, however is God's high standard for us.
You sound like you are wary of the impending judgement of God.
You're saying that because we are Positionally in Christ we are presently In Christ --they aren't the same. Realizing that there are those who haven't really led a horribly sinful life Before being saved. In fact some have led a pretty Good, religious life Prior to their salvation. But they are still sinners who need to accept God's way to get into heaven. So -- it's Possible that there won't be much of a change in that person's life. Maybe they've had a lot of knowledge about Jesus Christ / God's Word and such. But they are Still new babies in Christ upon their salvation.
We retain the old nature and well as getting a new nature until we receive a glorified body when we are finally actually With Jesus Christ.
You said you're 64 -- what's your background. I'm a bit older than you -- I know that even though I've been born-again since a teenager -- I've had problems -- sin - creeping up.
I doubt it.
They have cast me aside as they have cast Jesus aside.
You must think that God is teasing us.
Boy are you in for a surprise.
Perfection (towards God and neighbor) IS attainable in this life.
Are you unaware of this verse?..."The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom:" (Pro 9:10)
How about these verses?..."For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (1 Peter 4:17-18)
And..."Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;..." (2 Cor 5:9-11)
No, I am not.
Those who have been baptized into Christ, (and into His death, burial, and resurrection), (Rom 6:3-7) are ACTUALLY "in" Him.
It is the reason we can live without sin now!
"Horribly sinful"?
One sin got Adam kicked out of paradise.
The same will apply at the final judgement.
No we don't.
Those reborn of God's seed don't have an Adamic nature.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
@ At Peace --- so -- a person has to be baptized by immersion in order to be actually IN Him. So -- even if a person Has believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus --to be saved. That he isn't really Completely saved until being baptized by immersion. So a persons' visual baptism allows a person to live without sin Now.
It IS true that when Adam ate of the fruit that He and Eve were told Not to eat -- that their punishment was to be cast out of the garden. It's called the Garden of Eden -- not Paradise. As soon as they ate that fruit they knew they were naked -- they were ashamed. God made them a tunic to cover their new-found nakedness. The tunic came from God's having killed an animal for its skin. Blood was shed in order to obtain that tunic. They'd tried to cover their 'nakedness' with fig leaves. But that was Their attempt to take care of their own sin by themselves.
Their sin caused death to come into this world. I really believe that born-again believers will see Adam and Eve in heaven. Because they regretted their sin -- God shed blood of an innocent animal to 'cover' their sin.
They were caste Out of the garden just to make sure they wouldn't eat the fruit of the tree of life and live forever in their sins.
Psalms 103:10 - 12 " He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is His love for those who fear (reverense) Him. As far as the eat is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us."
So -- you're saying we Can live without sin or that we Do live without sins because of our baptism by immersion. You're saying that a believer CAN achieve sinless perfection while we are still living in this world.
So -- your family has caste you aside -- what Is your family background. You're 64. When did you accept Christ as your personal Savior? How long have you been a believer? Apparently your family are Not believers.
It IS true that when Adam ate of the fruit that He and Eve were told Not to eat -- that their punishment was to be cast out of the garden. It's called the Garden of Eden -- not Paradise. As soon as they ate that fruit they knew they were naked -- they were ashamed. God made them a tunic to cover their new-found nakedness. The tunic came from God's having killed an animal for its skin. Blood was shed in order to obtain that tunic. They'd tried to cover their 'nakedness' with fig leaves. But that was Their attempt to take care of their own sin by themselves.
Their sin caused death to come into this world. I really believe that born-again believers will see Adam and Eve in heaven. Because they regretted their sin -- God shed blood of an innocent animal to 'cover' their sin.
They were caste Out of the garden just to make sure they wouldn't eat the fruit of the tree of life and live forever in their sins.
Psalms 103:10 - 12 " He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is His love for those who fear (reverense) Him. As far as the eat is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us."
So -- you're saying we Can live without sin or that we Do live without sins because of our baptism by immersion. You're saying that a believer CAN achieve sinless perfection while we are still living in this world.
So -- your family has caste you aside -- what Is your family background. You're 64. When did you accept Christ as your personal Savior? How long have you been a believer? Apparently your family are Not believers.
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Greetings @Sue D. @At Peace
This thread is not going anywhere fast.
It has become another to and fro banter on sinless perfection.
Bible verses have been used with no real study of their meaning and concept.
Lets get back to the original topic and away from endless ping pong.
Here is the OP
2 Corinthians 11:14-15
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
this is something in this scripture we have a warning of those disguising themselves as being righteous are actually servants of the satan.
I wonder how we can apply this to real world examples and what we should look out for in real world examples.
would love to here your thoughts on this
This thread is not going anywhere fast.
It has become another to and fro banter on sinless perfection.
Bible verses have been used with no real study of their meaning and concept.
Lets get back to the original topic and away from endless ping pong.
Here is the OP
2 Corinthians 11:14-15
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
this is something in this scripture we have a warning of those disguising themselves as being righteous are actually servants of the satan.
I wonder how we can apply this to real world examples and what we should look out for in real world examples.
would love to here your thoughts on this
I agree -- the subject matter was going no where fast. I guess that If 'at peace' wants to converse with me off forum, he knows how to.
Actually there's another thread on pretty much the same subject. I'm going to check out of That one, also.
Curtis
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2 Corinthians 11:14-15
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
It is very easy to identify the wickedness of this world, and those who are the children of the devil. What is harder is to "identify" are those who "masquerade" as servants of God. Jesus said "you will know them by their fruit", which can not be faked. The number one clue to who is genuine, and who is not genuine is by the words that proceed out of their mouth. Every thing must be compared to revelation given by the "anointing" of the Spirit of God. Anyone can make the Word of God say anything they want by taking it out of context. The Apostle Paul warned the Church....
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Logical analytical reasoning of the scriptures only brings destruction upon those who trust in it.
We know the word "Christ" means "anointing". Anyone trying to teach, preach, prophecy, speak without that "anointing" will be just man made up knowledge that does nothing to it's hearers, except to deceive them into thinking they are right. Even if one uses the word of God to try and prove it is correct what they say. The ability to "discern" that "anointing" is a God given right to all of God's children. Never ever trust anyone, no matter how good their argument is, even if using scriptures to proof their doctrine. The question should always be "is it anointed", does it bear witness with my spirit. If it does not, do not believe it.
2Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
It is not unusual for a person to say they are a believer when they are not because the god of this world has blinded their minds, lest the light of the gospel should shine upon them. Having truth is not the same thing as "knowing" the truth. Self deception is rampant on this earth in these last days.
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
It is very easy to identify the wickedness of this world, and those who are the children of the devil. What is harder is to "identify" are those who "masquerade" as servants of God. Jesus said "you will know them by their fruit", which can not be faked. The number one clue to who is genuine, and who is not genuine is by the words that proceed out of their mouth. Every thing must be compared to revelation given by the "anointing" of the Spirit of God. Anyone can make the Word of God say anything they want by taking it out of context. The Apostle Paul warned the Church....
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Logical analytical reasoning of the scriptures only brings destruction upon those who trust in it.
We know the word "Christ" means "anointing". Anyone trying to teach, preach, prophecy, speak without that "anointing" will be just man made up knowledge that does nothing to it's hearers, except to deceive them into thinking they are right. Even if one uses the word of God to try and prove it is correct what they say. The ability to "discern" that "anointing" is a God given right to all of God's children. Never ever trust anyone, no matter how good their argument is, even if using scriptures to proof their doctrine. The question should always be "is it anointed", does it bear witness with my spirit. If it does not, do not believe it.
2Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
It is not unusual for a person to say they are a believer when they are not because the god of this world has blinded their minds, lest the light of the gospel should shine upon them. Having truth is not the same thing as "knowing" the truth. Self deception is rampant on this earth in these last days.
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When I visit a "church", I expect that the preacher will be a man of God.
But if he says "Nobody is perfect", I know he isn't a man of God.
He is a servant of satan.
He was disguised as an angel of light, in the office of pastor, but his words betrayed him and his master.
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