An hour then your thoughts

[Sue D.]

Let me just clarify, my frustration with you is not your view.

I may be young, but I have blogged and debated with Christians, athiests and Muslims for ten years now. I am currently a regular on two Christian and two atheist sites.

I am sure you do have a lost of wisdom to share and I look forward to further discussion with you. But you really do need to speak nicer and improve your internet discussion skills. If you pass insults or make accusations, you need to quote. A different view is fine.



Can you please give support for stating this?

Not trying to be sarcastic, but David says '''Give thanks because God is good'' in Psalm 136:1. I interpret it as ''Give thanks because God is good''. Where am I going wrong?


If it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that God is evil. Would you still serve Him? Still give ''thanks''? The devil would want us to believe the underlined. The bible is so full of actual examples shouting God's goodness.



God gave me a working brain that can. Mankind is accountable for their sins and needs a Savior, because mankind has a working brain. A high intelligence that can grasp right and wrong.

You are saying God did not give us the ability to grasp right and wrong with Him? We must serve God because He is....God? He knows He gave us the ability and for a reason. He does not want puppets in heaven. He wants a bride / children that are actually after His own desires. After His heart.

I propose you read Genesis 18 and pay careful attention to Abraham's inquisition of God and His wrath on Sodom. Or Moses in Exodus 32 with punishment on the Jews for the golden calf.

God did not create Lucifer as the most beautiful angel. Lucifer was promoted to a position where he wore a crown that was beautiful. His was given a position above the other angels. Your statement is on par with saying some babies are born with a briefcase and others with spanners. You need to think more on it. Angels are created a little above us.

Correct. We just need to grasp that He is good and is ''love'' 1 John 4:8 and that He has no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. We can then apply this to all the other characteristics of His power.....in case we assume He is evil.

Example 1: God is omnipotent. Does He make a vessel unto dishonor Rom 9:21? A resounding NO. Why? 1 John 4:8, 1 John 1:5, Psalm 136:1.
Example 2: God is omniscient. Does He know those things that can be proven to be evil 'to know'? A resounding NO. Why? 1 John 4:8, 1 John 1:5, Psalm 136:1.

You say ''we don't need to understand''. I propose that if any of us do not understand that God is light with no darkness in Him at all, that we then have a belief that differs to the message we have heard from the beginning 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from the beginning, God is light with no darkness in Him at all'.

KingJ -- since you feel that I " really do need to speak nicer and improve your (my) internet discussion skills. If you pass insults or make accusations, you need to quote." I will simply drop out of discussion with you. Because I've been feeling that you Also have been doing the same.

We are simply going to keep on going round and round on these subjects and I'm not going to do that.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ -- since you feel that I " really do need to speak nicer and improve your (my) internet discussion skills. If you pass insults or make accusations, you need to quote." I will simply drop out of discussion with you. Because I've been feeling that you Also have been doing the same.

We are simply going to keep on going round and round on these subjects and I'm not going to do that.

We were not going round and round. I asked you questions, you did not answer. You were elusive and rude.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Sue D. / @KingJ

When one starts to go back and forth on behavior instead of the topic matter, it just means that it's time to move on.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- you have a 'conversation' waiting for you. A PM.

 

[Curtis]

Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

Obviously, neither Jacob, or Esau had anything good or bad because they were not born yet! This scripture in no way shows God just randomly choosing whom will be saved. It tells us God does not need to wait and see what a person will be before making his choice. The Lord knew from the beginning who every one was that would responds to him. Every one is given the God given right to choose whom they will serve!

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ. -- Have decided to respond to your last post after all. So - if you're still 'here'.

You simply don't like my responses to your questions.

Back to post #121 -- you asked at one point "IF it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that God is evil -- would I still serve Him? Would I still give 'thanks". It kind of sounds like you have a problem with God -- your up-bringing or 'something' -- which is why I tried to approach you with PMing -- 'conversation' -- off-forum. I have a son your age. Our entire family has been through some tough stuff the past few years.

And another comment about "God gave me a working brain -- because mankind has a working brain --- a high intelligence that can grasp right and wrong." There are Some human beings who give themselves a bit Too much credit for their intelligence for right and / from wrong. It's called a bit of Pride. It IS true that people have the ability to Reason -- to invent. We have written and spoken language.

There is a passage in Proverbs 3 -- "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding -- In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths. `

Psalms 119 has Lots of wisdom -- 9 "How can a young man cleanse his way? Buy taking heed according to Your word. With my whole heart I have sought You. ---- 11 -- Your Word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.
vs 12 Blessed are You, O Lord! each me Your statutes.

v 89 "Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven, Your faithfulness endures to all generations. You established the earth and it abides. They continue this day according to Your ordinances.

Your comment -- "we must serve God because He is .... God ?" I would Like to respond by saying -- we Want to serve God cause as believers we Desire To please Him. The Holy Spirit residing in us upon our salvation Does give us that desire. We Also have the influence of satan -- he Also has the ability to make 'Godly things' seem dull maybe boring.

Now IF a person sees God as being maybe somewhat Evil at times -- in Our perspective at least -- then "we Must serve Him because Why..... He's God -- might Not be all that appealing.


There was a woman that lived way up north -- she and her husband had been very active in their church -- very into Awana. Turns out that her husband got involved with the church secretary and they ran off together. To top it all off -- he was a deacon. She lost interest in church -- big surprise !!!! A person Could , as a result, see a bit of 'evil' in God? Would she Still be able to say "thank you God --- for allowing my husband to run off with the secretary"? Will the wife who was 'left behind' Still want to serve Him?

God already Knew that That would happen. He Allowed it. For what purpose? What hard lessons do 'we' need to learn -- maybe the 'hard' way instead of the 'easy' way.

There was Another situation -- a different church -- a different state -- a couple who'd been having marital problems -- they broke up but stayed in the same church -- sat at opposite sides of a large church. After a while the husband started bringing his girlfriend to church with him. Oh,my -- Now what. Well -- as the girlfriend started hearing God's Word and about salvation -- SHE was convicted and accepted Christ as Her Savior. Then she was convicted that her relationship with the guy was Wrong and she broke up with him and left.

God Does work in Mysterious ways.

We don't know What happened with the married guy who ran off with the church secretary !!!!

and then "......... in case we assume that He/God is evil ".


Maybe you're reading this and maybe not -- someone will be, though.

The purpose of my trying to contact you through PMing is to try to get to know you a little. I actually almost didn't send it.

 

[Curtis]

God in no way creates "evil" on purpose. He creates everything "good", and because every being is given a free choice to be obedient, that being can chose to become evil if it wants. The Lord admits the evil that exists he created, but not on purpose to become evil.

 

[Sue D.]

God in no way creates "evil" on purpose. He creates everything "good", and because every being is given a free choice to be obedient, that being can chose to become evil if it wants. The Lord admits the evil that exists he created, but not on purpose to become evil.

That's one of the things we don't really 'understand' -- for instance, Judas was one of Christ's disciples -- yet he betrayed Christ to the soldiers. What happened to Judas -- he ended up going out and hanging himself. Was Judas 'created' to betray Christ? Did Christ really Need to be betrayed by anyone? the soldiers were bound to come for Him in order to get Him to the cross to die for us. How would 'we' have planned that series of events that led to the cross? Well -- it wasn't up to us -- it was God's sovereign plan.

And what about the world leaders that He puts in power. Some leaders in the O. T were very good and some were very Bad. His people wanted human leaders just like the country's around them. So -- God went along with their desires.
Does the same hold true Today? We are to obey those in authority over us. So -- what happens when earthly leaders tell us to do something Against God's Word. We follow earthly leaders As Much As Possible -- and Then we make some harder choices to go Against those authorities and Obey God. And suffer the consequences. We get arrested / put in jail / prison. Do we continue to share the Gospel unto salvation with the jailors / other inmates? Weren't Paul and Silas or Barnabas -- arrested and put in some pretty awful prisons. They used their New surroundings to continue sharing / singing out to Christ.

So -- we have the N. Korean leader -- Nero of the distant past -- some really ugly people in history. God allowed them to be put into power. Sometimes we forget that They started out as 'innocent babies' , too. What about Their parents. All people have a soul. It's either heaven or hell in 'their' futures. God 'allows' everything for His purposes.

There are No surprises for Him.

Eventually -- there Will be the 1,000 yr reign of Christ, Himself on this earth. That will be an interesting 1,000 yrs..

 

[Curtis]

So -- we have the N. Korean leader -- Nero of the distant past -- some really ugly people in history. God allowed them to be put into power. Sometimes we forget that They started out as 'innocent babies' , too. What about Their parents. All people have a soul. It's either heaven or hell in 'their' futures. God 'allows' everything for His purposes.

God allows evil men to be put into power because man allows it. The Lord God does NOT put all men into places of power. He puts some, but not all.

Hos 8:3 But it is too late. The people of Israel have rejected what is good, and now their enemies will chase after them.
Hos 8:4 The people have appointed kings without My consent, and princes without My knowledge. By making idols for themselves from their silver and gold, they have brought about their own destruction.

We just assume God does everything for his benefit, when God allows men to be put into power, but he does not commission it. Big difference.

 

[Sue D.]

@Curtis -- look at Romans 13:1 "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established, The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has institutes, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves. "

 

[Curtis]

@Curtis -- look at Romans 13:1 "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established, The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has institutes, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves. "

What if "governing authorities" tells you to do something that is against the "precepts" (law) of God? The word, "precept" is made up of two words. "pre" means "before", and "cept" which means "set". God's laws were "preset" before any of mans laws came into existence. God's laws supersede any laws given by man.

Act 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

 

[Sue D.]

What if "governing authorities" tells you to do something that is against the "precepts" (law) of God? The word, "precept" is made up of two words. "pre" means "before", and "cept" which means "set". God's laws were "preset" before any of mans laws came into existence. God's laws supersede any laws given by man.

Act 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I'm thinking that this subject came up on another thread of discussion.

There Are times when that Will happen. Laws tell us to do One thing and God's Word says to do Another thing. God's Word Should come first. There Will be negative consequences and we need to be prepared to face them. Whether it be loosing our job -- or ending up in jail / prison. Are we prepared to be just as much a Godly witness in jail / prison as we were while on the 'outside' which would be what landed us in jail/ prison?

Weren't Paul and Barnabas or Silas -- put in prison and continued to share Christ with their captors. Their 'new' mission field. Or would 'we' be bemoaning our 'fate' of prison life. Apparently other prisoners / guards needed Christ as much as everyone else did.

 

[B-A-C]

Gen 1:4; God saw that the light was good;
Gen 1:10; God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:18; and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:21; God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:25; God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:31; God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Everything is good.... ... until ....
We finally have a "not" good.

Gen 2:18; Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

 

[Sue D.]

Gen 1:4; God saw that the light was good;
Gen 1:10; God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:18; and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:21; God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:25; God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:31; God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Everything is good.... ... until ....
We finally have a "not" good.

Gen 2:18; Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

The "finally" Not good is when God -- in His omniscience -- knew that future generations would Try to include mankind in the animal world. Make 'us' an extension Of animals. Which we are Not.

So He Then gave the man / Adam/ a helper. A woman -- Eve. Made a woman Out of the first man=wo-man. And they proceeded to be united together by God and produced the first family. So - God's creative 'program' was now complete.

The 'feminist' movement would have women being Equal to the men. They want to Prove to society that they don't Need men. And there Are women who can use a jack hammer just as well as a man -- or shingle a roof just as well -- but what does that do to their femininity? When I'm out on my own and a man opens a door for me / is gentelmanly towards me -- I Thank him. I Don't look at him with disdain -- "I can do it myself"

God created mankind as male and female. The ability to reproduce. From the very beginning of this world -- it has Always required egg and ***** to create the baby who is the future generation.

God's 'family' is what stabilizes society. Parents staying together -- loving each other -- being committed to each other and caring for their off-spring Stabilizes society. God in our lives Stabilizes.

Being 'not' good does Not mean grossly 'evil'. Everyone has the Propensity For evil within them. Small children have to be Taught to be nice -- their Propensity is to say "my" toy. Not wanting to share. In a church nursery many years ago when my kids were really small -- I'd take my turn helping watch the tiny kids as they were playing. Our job was to keep those little one's 'safe' while their parents were in church. Sometimes they were able to share with each other -- but the 'watchful eye' would see a problem and either separate a couple of kids or say "no no" and redirect their activities. Parent's can Also simply 'let kids be kids' and observe the results. And Usually the 'result' will Not be pretty. Kids Want to know that 'someone' cares enough to Stop them -- to teach them important 'boundaries'.

 

[B-A-C]

Being 'not' good does Not mean grossly 'evil'.

Exactly

Some of my socks are so stretched out, they don't stay up on my legs. That's "not good", but is it evil?

Sometimes my wife (Grandma) lets the grandkids stay up too late and eat ice cream. That might be good, but is it Holy?

I think people focus too much on what's "good" or "not good". Even how they perceive God as "good".
They forget He is Holy, Just, Righteous, a Consuming Fire.

 

[Sue D.]

Exactly

Some of my socks are so stretched out, they don't stay up on my legs. That's "not good", but is it evil?

Sometimes my wife (Grandma) lets the grandkids stay up too late and eat ice cream. That might be good, but is it Holy?

I think people focus too much on what's "good" or "not good". Even how they perceive God as "good".
They forget He is Holy, Just, Righteous, a Consuming Fire.

Yes, God Is holy. And we are to also be holy.

But letting grand kids stay up too late and eat ice cream -- why would that need to be 'holy' in nature. How about eating ice cream and staying up to late in the process -- it might not be Good, but is it evil?!

What would our being 'holy' Look like?!

 

[KingJ]

Exactly

Some of my socks are so stretched out, they don't stay up on my legs. That's "not good", but is it evil?

Sometimes my wife (Grandma) lets the grandkids stay up too late and eat ice cream. That might be good, but is it Holy?

I think people focus too much on what's "good" or "not good". Even how they perceive God as "good".
They forget He is Holy, Just, Righteous, a Consuming Fire.

If we cannot perceive God as good, why serve Him? It is because we perceive Him as good that we serve Him. He gave us all the ability to grasp what is good and bad. Just ask any unsaved person around you if they want a hug verse a smack to the face. Part of accepting Jesus is accepting what He stood for and taught. Turn the left cheek. Love your enemy. Don't be boastful. Don't be partial. etc etc etc etc. If one day we get to heaven and God is like ''surprise, I am not that good'', then God is a liar. Is God a liar? If we blur or stain God's ''goodness'' displayed by perfect holiness, righteousness, justness, kindness, love....we are doing the devils job.

Holy = sacred = abstain from evil = good
Righteous = do what is right = good
Consuming fire of what is good. Not just a random consuming fire. ''Look over there, that is a big fire, wow''. Or a consuming fire of what is evil.

 

[KingJ]

Back to post #121 -- you asked at one point "IF it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that God is evil -- would I still serve Him? Would I still give 'thanks". It kind of sounds like you have a problem with God -- your up-bringing or 'something' -- which is why I tried to approach you with PMing -- 'conversation' -- off-forum. I have a son your age. Our entire family has been through some tough stuff the past few years.

Not sure what you are trying to say.

And another comment about "God gave me a working brain -- because mankind has a working brain --- a high intelligence that can grasp right and wrong." There are Some human beings who give themselves a bit Too much credit for their intelligence for right and / from wrong. It's called a bit of Pride. It IS true that people have the ability to Reason -- to invent. We have written and spoken language.

Those people that have pride know from their working brain that they have pride.

There is a passage in Proverbs 3 -- "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding -- In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths. `

You mentioned Nero. At his time you had to denounce your god and make him your god. Must we trust in him with all our hearts? We can only trust in God / Jesus with all our hearts because we know He is good. Psalm 136:1 ''Give thanks because God is good''. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. God did this for all of us John 3:16 and made all of mankind His 'friends' when He did this. There is now no need for us to have a face to face rational discussion with God to grasp He is good, as Abraham did in Gen 18. We just need to grasp what God has done for us. Allow it to shine light on whatever problems we are going through. Whatever wickedness and contentions scripture we see.

Psalms 119 has Lots of wisdom -- 9 "How can a young man cleanse his way? Buy taking heed according to Your word. With my whole heart I have sought You. ---- 11 -- Your Word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.
vs 12 Blessed are You, O Lord! each me Your statutes.

v 89 "Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven, Your faithfulness endures to all generations. You established the earth and it abides. They continue this day according to Your ordinances.

We cannot read the bible and only grasp God's greatness. There are plenty examples of His goodness. He is as good as He is great. We must not preach a half truth. Half truths are heresy. False teaching. We must be very careful and aware of it.

Your comment -- "we must serve God because He is .... God ?" I would Like to respond by saying -- we Want to serve God cause as believers we Desire To please Him. The Holy Spirit residing in us upon our salvation Does give us that desire. We Also have the influence of satan -- he Also has the ability to make 'Godly things' seem dull maybe boring.

David was a man after God's heart. Surely we should be too? God's heart = Rom 12:9 Genuine love is to hate what is evil and cling to what is good. The Holy Spirit comes after we are after God's heart. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you James 4:8. Open the door to Jesus knocking Rev 3:20.

Now IF a person sees God as being maybe somewhat Evil at times -- in Our perspective at least -- then "we Must serve Him because Why..... He's God -- might Not be all that appealing.

1 John 1:5 He is light with no darkness in Him at all.

There was a woman that lived way up north -- she and her husband had been very active in their church -- very into Awana. Turns out that her husband got involved with the church secretary and they ran off together. To top it all off -- he was a deacon. She lost interest in church -- big surprise !!!! A person Could , as a result, see a bit of 'evil' in God? Would she Still be able to say "thank you God --- for allowing my husband to run off with the secretary"? Will the wife who was 'left behind' Still want to serve Him?

How does a person being evil equate to God being evil? Would God be good in your view if He restricted the evil destined to be in hell for eternity, from being evil in their seventy years on earth?

God already Knew that That would happen. He Allowed it. For what purpose? What hard lessons do 'we' need to learn -- maybe the 'hard' way instead of the 'easy' way.

Him allowing the wicked time and space to do wicked, is evidence of free will. Free will is evidence of a good God. He did not make them do it. You need to look a million years into the future. That evil and wicked person in hell will have absolutely no recourse. He will know without a shadow of a doubt that he displayed his own evil desires to a depth of intent.

There was Another situation -- a different church -- a different state -- a couple who'd been having marital problems -- they broke up but stayed in the same church -- sat at opposite sides of a large church. After a while the husband started bringing his girlfriend to church with him. Oh,my -- Now what. Well -- as the girlfriend started hearing God's Word and about salvation -- SHE was convicted and accepted Christ as Her Savior. Then she was convicted that her relationship with the guy was Wrong and she broke up with him and left.

My church would put them under discipline and remove the guy if he did not work on reconciling with his ex. Paul's instructions in scripture are crystal clear.

God Does work in Mysterious ways.

God's ways are only mysterious to a wicked person. Not one who can grasp the righteousness of loving your enemy for example.

We don't know What happened with the married guy who ran off with the church secretary !!!!

and then "......... in case we assume that He/God is evil ".

We know how God felt about adultery in the OT Lev 20:10 and feels about it in the NT Matt 5:28, Matt 5:32. God does not change Num 23:19.

Lev 20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man's wife with the wife of his neighbor both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ. -- first of all -- apparently you are still here on Forum. Are you familiar with PMing? Starting a "conversation" instead of talking in open forum as we are now? Or do you prefer talking 'here'.

Will continue after you've responded to this.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Wow, didn't know my post would generate 7 pages.

I don't even know where to jump on, loll. I'm reflecting on the messages thus far.
Much to say, much to say.